Coronavirus: How dangerous a threat?

Page 209 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Years ago, the top marginal tax rate was 91%. Yes, let's make America Great Again.



Gross exaggeration. I'm not belittling the hit the restaurant industry has taken, but the great majority of them have not gone out of business. I'm all for helping the restaurant industry, but why not give the money directly to them? In fact, in places where restaurants are closed, the tax break won't help immediately. Why not give the money in a way that it does help immediately?



If you get a huge discount in the price via taxes, then a major portion of the meal is effectively free. I don't have detailed data, but from my relatively rare occasions dining out, I have found that with a few exceptions, most restaurants serve food that has far more fat/oil, salt and protein than is healthy. Even a pure vegetable dish is something i would never prepare at home. That's one reason I rarely eat in restaurants. Very few people in my experience are willing to make the effort to eat to live, as opposed to living to eat. Maybe Nomad could weigh in on this, since he's insisting that better health is an important part of the response to C19.

I also call total, 100% BS to the notion that you have to dine with someone to develop a good business relationship with them.



He's already vetoed the Defense bill, apparently because it doesn't include something that AFAIK has nothing to do with defense. There are enough votes from his own party to override the veto, but if he follows through on his threat to veto the stimulus, I'm not at all sure that the bill can be saved.

I actually agree with many of Trump's criticisms of the stimulus bill, certainly that $600 to individuals isn't enough. But half a loaf--or in this case, maybe a couple of slices of bread--is better than nothing, and after seeing how long and difficult it was for Congress even to agree on this bill, it looks like all or nothing. It should also be pointed out that his point man Mnuchin was in on the negotiations, so it's not as though Trump was blind-sided by the final bill.
Your last line is key, if he wanted other/different things, why wait until the bill is done? Simple answer, he doesn't want to help us. Unfortunately, his cult followers will not recognize his transparent demand for $1,200 for each person isn't really what he wants.
 

Chris Gadsden

BANNED
Oct 28, 2019
131
288
1,230
Your last line is key, if he wanted other/different things, why wait until the bill is done? Simple answer, he doesn't want to help us. Unfortunately, his cult followers will not recognize his transparent demand for $1,200 for each person isn't really what he wants.

Thus, of course, would explain why Pelosi turned down - months earlier - a 2nd Covid relief package of $1.9 Trillion offered by the administration. She turned it down for the reason of electioneering.

And you speak of cult followers...
 
Yeah, I see I have been too optimistic. I thought a lot of NH residents were already vaccinated by now, but apparently not. And even if they were, the protection would not be seen until well into January.
I think most of the Pfizer doses went to health care due to the cold chain issues. The pace will pick up but even after they get it, initial immunity takes a week or so. Deaths lag by 3-4 weeks, so 3k a day through January sounds plausible. Anecdotally, it seems people are being less careful for Xmas than thanksgiving. The good thing is a lot of people will be off work, lessening the spread a little.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jmdirt

Chris Gadsden

BANNED
Oct 28, 2019
131
288
1,230
Are Governments following the science?

New Colorado study claims no link between gym attendance and COVID-19 infections

https://theknow.denverpost.com/2020...ost&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social


Also, asymptomatic and pre-sympyomatic spread of Covid is statistically 0%. According to the study it isn’t happening.

https://alachuachronicle.com/university-of-florida-researchers-find-no-asymptomatic-spread/

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2774102

How about this one:

“Do-Not-Resuscitate (DNR)” Status Determines Mortality in Patients with COVID-19


This is a retrospective, observational cohort study of all patients admitted to two New Jersey hospitals between March 15 and May 15, 2020 who had, or developed, COVID-19 (1270 patients). Of these, 640 patients died (570 (89.1 percent) with and 70 (10.9 percent) without a DNR order at the time of admission) and 630 survived (180 (28.6 percent) with and 450 (71.4 percent) without a DNR order when admitted). Among the 120 patients without COVID-19 who died during this interval, 110 (91.7 percent) had a DNR order when admitted.

Conclusion
The risk of death from COVID-19 was significantly influenced by the patients’ DNR status.

https://www.cidjournal.com/article/S0738-081X(20)30231-5/fulltext

Then there’s this;

It Is Long Past Time for the CDC and NCHS to Clean Up the COVID-19 Death Counts


https://pjmedia.com/columns/stacey-...o-clean-up-the-covid-19-death-counts-n1227508
 
Last edited:

Chris Gadsden

BANNED
Oct 28, 2019
131
288
1,230
As the first shipments of COVID-19 vaccines begin to arrive in the United States, some interesting and timely data have emerged from NCI-led research about the coronavirus and immunity. Using real-world data from more than 3 million people, NCI researchers and our collaborators have found that people who have had evidence of a prior infection with SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, appear to have some degree of protection against being reinfected with the virus.

The research team then looked at what fraction of individuals in each group went on to later develop a positive result on a nucleic acid (PCR) test for SARS-CoV-2, which may indicate a new infection. We found that, 90 or more days after the initial antibody test, people who had been antibody-negative had evidence of infection (a positive PCR test) at about 10 times the rate of people who had been antibody-positive.

This protective effect is strong and comparable to the protection afforded by effective SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, although developing protection from vaccination is much safer than from natural infection. This finding suggests that people who have a positive antibody test result using widely available assays have substantial immunity to SARS-CoV-2 and are at lower risk for future infection.


...we believe these data, together with results of several other studies, suggest that SARS-CoV-2 infection provides strong immunity to reinfection that lasts for at least several months. And we believe that immunity can be identified in most patients using antibody tests available to all Americans.

https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/...s-antibodies-protect-against-future-infection
 
Are Governments following the science?

New Colorado study claims no link between gym attendance and COVID-19 infections

https://theknow.denverpost.com/2020...ost&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social


Also, asymptomatic and pre-sympyomatic spread of Covid is statistically 0%. According to the study it isn’t happening.

https://alachuachronicle.com/university-of-florida-researchers-find-no-asymptomatic-spread/

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2774102

How about this one:

“Do-Not-Resuscitate (DNR)” Status Determines Mortality in Patients with COVID-19


This is a retrospective, observational cohort study of all patients admitted to two New Jersey hospitals between March 15 and May 15, 2020 who had, or developed, COVID-19 (1270 patients). Of these, 640 patients died (570 (89.1 percent) with and 70 (10.9 percent) without a DNR order at the time of admission) and 630 survived (180 (28.6 percent) with and 450 (71.4 percent) without a DNR order when admitted). Among the 120 patients without COVID-19 who died during this interval, 110 (91.7 percent) had a DNR order when admitted.

Conclusion
The risk of death from COVID-19 was significantly influenced by the patients’ DNR status.

https://www.cidjournal.com/article/S0738-081X(20)30231-5/fulltext

Then there’s this;

It Is Long Past Time for the CDC and NCHS to Clean Up the COVID-19 Death Counts


https://pjmedia.com/columns/stacey-...o-clean-up-the-covid-19-death-counts-n1227508
Gyms are open here, so I don't get the critique. Exercise classes are restricted for good reason. We know that they have caused superspreader events. But we are not following the science. If we were, restaurants would be closed. Fewer bad faith 'follow the science' arguments from you guys would be appreciated. Maybe a new years resolution?

I agree that we should state the true mortality for covid. It is way higher than the reported numbers based on excess mortality stats.
 

Chris Gadsden

BANNED
Oct 28, 2019
131
288
1,230
Gyms are open here, so I don't get the critique. Exercise classes are restricted for good reason. We know that they have caused superspreader events. But we are not following the science. If we were, restaurants would be closed. Fewer bad faith 'follow the science' arguments from you guys would be appreciated. Maybe a new years resolution?

I agree that we should state the true mortality for covid. It is way higher than the reported numbers based on excess mortality stats.

“Gyms in counties in a region that is impacted by the order must stop indoor operations," California's website states.

Other than it’s well past time for our government(s) to start telling the truth about covid deaths, what does this mean to you;

In this cohort of patients with COVID-19, a DNR order was found to be a significant predictor of mortality, a finding that persisted after adjustment for other important clinical factors. The increased mortality in DNR patients may have resulted from unmeasured severity of illness, transition to comfort care in accordance with a patient's wishes, or failure to offer more aggressive care, such as a respirator, to patients with a DNR order. DNR status should be evaluated in COVID-19 epidemiologic studies to further understand mortality in this pandemic.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7698831/
 
Last edited:
“Gyms in counties in a region that is impacted by the order must stop indoor operations," California's website states.

Other than it’s well past time for our government(s) to start telling the truth about covid deaths, what does this mean to you;

In this cohort of patients with COVID-19, a DNR order was found to be a significant predictor of mortality, a finding that persisted after adjustment for other important clinical factors. The increased mortality in DNR patients may have resulted from unmeasured severity of illness, transition to comfort care in accordance with a patient's wishes, or failure to offer more aggressive care, such as a respirator, to patients with a DNR order. DNR status should be evaluated in COVID-19 epidemiologic studies to further understand mortality in this pandemic.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7698831/
Why are you complaining about gyms closing in the covid epicenter? As I mentioned, that is not the norm. Desperate times breed desperate measures.

I think it is indicative of triage when NJ was in the deep, deep stuff. Those people are also going to be older and sicker on average, so would be expected to fare worse. Classic case of correlation does not equate to causation. It sounds like you are going for round #196 of the 'people are dying with covid instead of from covid' discussion which I have no desire to rehash.

It is absolutely bewildering to me that people aren't willing to more or less skip one (1) unit of Christmas with vaccination just around the corner. Like officers merrily charging machine gun nests in the last few hours before the November armistice.
Imo, people have been cheating here for months and have largely gotten away with it. Each time you cheat and nothing happens relaxes the inhibition. The thing about risky behavior is that bad things don't happen every time. Drunk driving is an example. For me, the thought of infecting family members or essential workers was the deciding factor in staying home for the week instead of traveling. Weather will be better in a few months anyway.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jmdirt
Thus, of course, would explain why Pelosi turned down - months earlier - a 2nd Covid relief package of $1.9 Trillion offered by the administration. She turned it down for the reason of electioneering.

And you speak of cult followers...
so let me get this straight,Trump siding with the Democrats and demanding $2 grand instead of $600 bucks,and Trumps party poised to vote against him, override his absolute demand is the fault of Nancy Pelosi? Huh? No matter what party,both far,far more similar than different,a few Covid constants remain, first and foremost, messaging..the results of intentionally confusing the public have been an absolute catastrophe.
Non centralized health coordination, utter disaster.
economic denial of everything,employment based health care,number of gig workers in the economy and the overall facade of strength,which was completely washed away early,people unable to get food,pay rent and making life and death decisions because of an ultra state of economic fragility.
stimulus package based on dumb..$1200+600 = 1800 for 10 months..dumb..especially in a country where 2 thirds of the economy is based on consumer spending.
Research was becoming clearer and clearer..blacks,Latinos and native Americans at way way more risk than everyone else..but the government response was scatter shot rather than laser focused,and the results have been ugly and obvious,mass swaths of Caucasians revolting to the point of absolute denial that the virus was real.I
And now people looking at pork barrel spending on pet political projects as an aberration instead of standard practice..
Our nurses,doctors and hospital officials saying that they are running at redline..but the leaders of the country listening to stories about Hugo Chavez and prioritize pardons and voting machine confiscation instead of public health and people's lives..
* Nancy Pelosi is not queen,she doesn't do anything,especially pass legislation of any kind single handedly. This pop goes the weasel negotiating style has not worked anywhere,with anybody, N.Koreans,Mexicans,Greenland,European union, China,and it's pretty pathetic that on Christmas week Trump can't find time to take part in critical American stimulus package negotiations..
This is people's lives,it's not a game
 
so let me get this straight,Trump siding with the Democrats and demanding $2 grand instead of $600 bucks,and Trumps party poised to vote against him, override his absolute demand is the fault of Nancy Pelosi? Huh? No matter what party,both far,far more similar than different,a few Covid constants remain, first and foremost, messaging..the results of intentionally confusing the public have been an absolute catastrophe.
Non centralized health coordination, utter disaster.
economic denial of everything,employment based health care,number of gig workers in the economy and the overall facade of strength,which was completely washed away early,people unable to get food,pay rent and making life and death decisions because of an ultra state of economic fragility.
stimulus package based on dumb..$1200+600 = 1800 for 10 months..dumb..especially in a country where 2 thirds of the economy is based on consumer spending.
Research was becoming clearer and clearer..blacks,Latinos and native Americans at way way more risk than everyone else..but the government response was scatter shot rather than laser focused,and the results have been ugly and obvious,mass swaths of Caucasians revolting to the point of absolute denial that the virus was real.I
And now people looking at pork barrel spending on pet political projects as an aberration instead of standard practice..
Our nurses,doctors and hospital officials saying that they are running at redline..but the leaders of the country listening to stories about Hugo Chavez and prioritize pardons and voting machine confiscation instead of public health and people's lives..
* Nancy Pelosi is not queen,she doesn't do anything,especially pass legislation of any kind single handedly. This pop goes the weasel negotiating style has not worked anywhere,with anybody, N.Koreans,Mexicans,Greenland,European union, China,and it's pretty pathetic that on Christmas week Trump can't find time to take part in critical American stimulus package negotiations..
This is people's lives,it's not a game
Uh, dt didn't side with the dems, he torpedoed the bill. He doesn't want payments to go out to people, and the best way to do that was to kill the bill after it was done. He could have said "no payments to individuals", but wanted to look like a hero by saying "$2,000 payments", both have the same effect...no payment to people who need money to survive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: movingtarget
asymptomatic and pre-sympyomatic spread of Covid is statistically 0%. According to the study it isn’t happening.

I'll point out, first, that the claim that presymptomatic transmission doesn't occur is totally false. The authors of the UF study you cite themselves concede that it does occur, and they could hardly say otherwise, given the substantial evidence (which i discussed upthread) that shows that infectiousness peaks before the emergence of symptoms in people who develop the latter.

With regard to asymptomatics--people who never develop any symptoms--I begin by pointing out that the UF study was a meta-analysis, and only 4 studies were used as a source of data for asymptomatics. This is a problem with such studies. The sample sizes are generally very small.

In fact, I looked at those four studies. One reported only a single asymptomatic, who had just two close contacts. Two of the other studies (one of which was the famous Korean call center super spreading event) reported just four asymptomatics each; in one of those studies, one of the asymptomatics did transmit the virus to a household contact. The authors even conclude that this confirms that asymptomatic transmission is possible.

The fourth study included a total of 31 asymptomatics or presymptomatics, and for this relatively larger sample size (about 80% of all the subjects the meta-analysis based its conclusion on), there were numerous transmission events. In fact, what the authors of this fourth study describe as the crude attack rate (transmission events/number of close contacts) was not different from that of symptomatics. However, the authors note that the household attack rates (which is what the UF study is focussed on) were much lower for asymptomatics. Outside the household, symptomatic transmission, relative to asymptomatic transmission, goes down, because symptoms predispose people to wearing masks, social distancing, and other behavioral measures that would reduce spread. So this study found that asymptomatic spread was in fact very important outside of households. It was less important within households, but they still found that it was significant:

Nonetheless, an AR [attack rate] of 4.4% and 6.1% in asymptomatic and presymptomatic cases, respectively, is not negligible.


I repeat: this is the conclusion of one of four studies that are the basis for the UF meta-analysis, and this study contains about 80% of all subjects. So how did the UF authors conclude there is virtually no asymptomatic transmission? They have performed what seems like magic. They determine the attack rate of symptomatics in each individual study--infections caused/number of contacts--and through a technique called restricted maximum likelihood, come up with a weighted average of 18%. If you just use the raw data--add up all the infections, and divide by the total of contacts--you get about 12%. So the weighted technique bumps up the rate by about 50%. This is understandable. Some studies, for various reasons, are thought to count more than others. The technique is performed on about half a dozen other symptomatic data sets, and each time it bumps up the raw rate, but not too much, never more than 50%.

But if you perform the same analysis on the asymptomatics, something different happens. The raw rate is 4.5%, but after the statistical technique, it's bumped down, and way, way down: to 0.7%. Why the difference? Why does it bump the symptomatic rate up, and the asymptomatic rate way down?

This is above my pay grade, but it seems that the technique sees that two of the four asymptomatic studies had no infections, and somehow incorporates this heavily into the analysis. I really don't understand this, but JAMA is a medical journal, not a mathematical one. Most of its readers are doctors. If I don't understand a statistical tool, you can be sure most of those doctors don't, either. And for something that has such a critical effect--turning a robust rate into virtually nothing--an explanation is owed. In any case, their conclusion remains starkly at odds with the one study that is the source of most of their data. Obviously, those authors saw no reason to alter their attack rate so dramatically.

The UF authors cite two other studies as evidence that asymptomatic transmission is rare (not included in the meta-analysis, I assume because they couldn't determine when infection took place). One of these studies did report a very low attack rate; there was just one incident of asymptomatic transmission. But the other study reported an attack rate of asymptomatics that was about the same as that of symptomatics. The authors of the UF meta-analysis also cite evidence that presymptomatic transmission occurs; as I said earlier, they could hardly claim otherwise. I'll just add that many other studies have reported transmission by asymnptomatics.

Moving on from meta-analysis, of the single studies finding no transmission by asymptomatics, this is probably the best, at least in terms of sample size (it was not included in the UF meta-anaysis; again, I assume because infection times could not be identified):


This was carried out in Wuhan last summer, where most of the more than 10 million residents were tested, and there were only 300 asymptomatic cases. None of them had active virus. So asymptomatic is simply defined as someone who tests positive by PCR, but has no symptoms. But someone who tests positive by PCR might have non-functional virus or viral fragments for some time after initially being infected, and might have been infectious during an earlier period. Studies in China have actually shown that viral fragments can be found in some people as long as five weeks after symptoms subside. People like this might not be common, but 300/10 million is definitely not common. The researchers may have just identified the relatively rare individuals who retain viral sequence some time after the infection has been resolved. I note that more of them were in older people, who you would expect would have more trouble eradicating the virus, even if it was no longer infectious. What you really want to know is whether asymptomatics are infectious within a week or so after having been infected. The studies included in the UF meta-analysis did address this issue, but as I noted earlier, these studies included very few asymptomatics, and the one that had the largest sample size found there was significant transmission, and emphasized it.

There were also no symptomatic cases in the entire nearly 10 million pool of tested individuals, so there isn't even a control for the conclusion that asymptomatics don't spread the virus. This study didn't find any spread, period.

We believe these data, together with results of several other studies, suggest that SARS-CoV-2 infection provides strong immunity to reinfection that lasts for at least several months.

Yes, that is consistent with emerging findings. Some people, we know, have been infected a second time, but they seem to be fairly rare.
 
Last edited:
The national Belgian health institute publishes quite detailed daily reports with covid data. At the end, there is always a European 'ranking' based on the infections reported per capita. Luxembourg has been consistently in the top-3 (1st = worst) for more than a month now, but they hardly have measures (e.g. restaurants are still open). A surprising country near the top is now Denmark, who have done very well for a long time. They probably reacted a bit too late this time round, and then it's very hard to quickly turn things around. Spain is in the lower end now, but infections seem to be on the rise again, and I've heard they opened restaurants and pubs again. Way too early, I think, so I expect they will start climbing in the ranking.

The consistent good performers have been Iceland, Norway, Finland and Ireland.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kaptain Kool

Chris Gadsden

BANNED
Oct 28, 2019
131
288
1,230
Uh, dt didn't side with the dems, he torpedoed the bill. He doesn't want payments to go out to people, and the best way to do that was to kill the bill after it was done. He could have said "no payments to individuals", but wanted to look like a hero by saying "$2,000 payments", both have the same effect...no payment to people who need money to survive.

<sighs>

Nothing has been torpedoed. The bill is veto-proof. Pelosi has said she’ll put the increase on the floor for a vote. DJT put the embarrassment of a bill back on Pelosi’s lap so she can try and justify shafting a wide swath of the American people. $600 wouldn’t fill her freezer with ice cream.
 
Fauci has not had any meaningful influence since June. Scott Atlas is mostly responsible for the mess we are in. Fauci is largely responsible for the Moderna vaccine trials, so slightly more useful than most. But not without his own mistakes. Glad he will be taking a more prominent role in January.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jmdirt

Chris Gadsden

BANNED
Oct 28, 2019
131
288
1,230
Fauci has not had any meaningful influence since June. Scott Atlas is mostly responsible for the mess we are in. Fauci is largely responsible for the Moderna vaccine trials, so slightly more useful than most. But not without his own mistakes. Glad he will be taking a more prominent role in January.

Slowly, deliberately moving goal posts means slowly and deliberately killing his credibility.

Who will listen? I mean, is this the time he’s being straight... or will it be next time? Is it 15 days to stop the spread or 15 months? Masks aren’t necessary, ummm ok, everyone wear a mask. Don’t close down travel from China... uh, ermmm, ya, stop travel. 70% herd immunity.... would you believe 80%. Okay, 85% but I’m not going to 90%. Oh, and I bet my house covid is not as contagious as measles. But 90% would be good so let’s shoot for that.

If Biden was smart, and he’s not, he’d put Fauci on the bench and never let a tv camera near him.
 
Last edited: