Coronavirus: How dangerous a threat?

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Schools and other “public” infrastructure are the immediate challenge. Private corporate enterprises can and will take a lot of it on themselves. Given the state/federal US overlap/disconnection, I think that’s always been inevitable and it will be an ongoing sorting process.
 
I agree with you that 'things' will have to be different in many/most jobs. I also wonder about schools. My neighborhood elementary school has ~600 kids (in a building built for ~450). Even if kids end up not being as vulnerable as others, they are going home to 1,200 parents (really more because of split families), and visiting 2,400 grandparents, etc...
The leading epidemiology body here in Belgium says that it has become clear that schools and school children are not the motor of the epidemic, in contrast to many other diseases. The main route for infection seems to be between (working) adults, not from children to adults.
 
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Yesterday the Governor of New Jersey conceded that the Covid death toll now exceeds the sum total of New Jersians killed in Vietnam,Korea and WWl wars..

back to that perceptive thing.
At @54,900 the U.S. will take a couple of days to overtake the number of combat dead from the Vietnam war..
Mexico has @15,000 cases..@1300 of them in Baja North..less than 300 cases and less than 20 dead in Baja South which includes Los Cabos..Cabo San Lucas
 
The leading epidemiology body here in Belgium says that it has become clear that schools and school children are not the motor of the epidemic, in contrast to many other diseases. The main route for infection seems to be between (working) adults, not from children to adults.
One of the most stupid things that Italy did was closing the schools first, so suddenly you had the grandparents taking care of the grandchildren and going around to play with them in parks, if both parents had to work. That was rather stupid, members of a high risk group suddenly had more social contacts because of that measure.
 
There is a scientific paper estimating the effects of the lockdown in France: https://www.ea-reperes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/ImpactConfinement-EHESP-20200322v1.pdf. They only compare lockdown against no restrictions and find more than 60000 fewer deaths and more than 500.000 fewer hospitalizations.

The Economist compares excess mortality with official covid deaths:
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries.

Usually the official figure is around 70%. An extreme exception is Jakarta which has 1500 additional deaths in March but only 84 official deaths.
 
Do these tests specifically determine that C19 is responsible for the antibodies?
In theory, yes. Before they are taken public, all of these serology tests should be able to show that samples taken from before the outbreak or taken from patients with a history of related viral infections are 100% negative. The only positives should be due to COVID-19.

In practice, it is difficult to say with certainty since most places are using tests that have not been FDA approved. So, the quality is much less rigorously validated and can vary from company to company. And I doubt any test will hit 100%. But maybe 99% is possible. No one has publicly announced the specific metrics on the test from NY studies AFAIK.
 
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Chris Gadsden

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One is left to wonder if the longer term effects/non-virus related death toll of COVID 19 might actually be worse at some point in the near future than the number of deaths by the virus itself. We aren't even talking of the economically devastated or those who have stopped seeking medical attention due to "elective" procedures being stopped. I read where huge numbers of cancer patients stopped chemo treatments due to risk to them from be treated at hospital.

Grim stuff.


Top E.R. Doctor Who Treated Virus Patients Dies by Suicide
“She tried to do her job, and it killed her,” said the father of Dr. Lorna M. Breen, who worked at a Manhattan hospital hit hard by the coronavirus outbreak.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/nyregion/new-york-city-doctor-suicide-coronavirus.html
 
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Regeneron announced today that they have a covid-19 specific treatment that should go to trials in June. They said it's a similar type treatment to the one they did for ebola that worked very well, but obviously this one specifically for covid-19. They are hopeful with it. The one they have in trials they aren't surprised isn't doing much because it's not really for covid-19. They also announced a treatment for lung cancer which is in phase 3 trials is doing extremely well in extending patients lives. They are getting ready to submit findings for approval of that treatment in both the US and Europe. So although not covid news there is news for treatments working for other things. They said it took them 9 months to get a treatment that worked for ebola. If the one they start testing in June works as they expect it to it will be about half that time for it.
 
I got a message that my post had been sent to limbo. I don't remember posting anything against the rules, or even controversial since this thread opened back up, but sorry to ya'll and the mods for whatever it was.

EDIT: I just went to my profile and scrolled through my recent posts, the one missing was about the Idaho protests (I think), but I don't remember exactly what I typed. None the less, like I said, sorry for whatever it was.

One is left to wonder if the longer term effects/non-virus related death toll of COVID 19 might actually be worse at some point in the near future than the number of deaths by the virus itself. We aren't even talking of the economically devastated or those who have stopped seeking medical attention due to "elective" procedures being stopped. I read where huge numbers of cancer patients stopped chemo treatments due to risk to them from be treated at hospital.

Grim stuff.


Top E.R. Doctor Who Treated Virus Patients Dies by Suicide
“She tried to do her job, and it killed her,” said the father of Dr. Lorna M. Breen, who worked at a Manhattan hospital hit hard by the coronavirus outbreak.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/nyregion/new-york-city-doctor-suicide-coronavirus.html
It seems that many people are avoiding medical centres now including people with chronic diseases. Cancer patients though are taking real risks delaying their treatment. Probably partly for financial reasons. Elective surgery in Australia was put on hold but now it is being opened up again because the hospital bed situation didn't get out of hand. When you see what is happening in hospitals and nursing homes I can understand some people being wary of going to medical centres or doctor's surgeries. The amount of medical professionals that have not only been infected but also died, globally is a concern. Some countries obviously don't have the proper equipment and not enough, some were totally unprepared it seems, some couldn't source the equipment in time after other countries got in first etc..........but it's a worry when even doctors that have the best equipment are being infected. Obviously this virus is very hard to contain and I guess overworked medical professionals are also sometimes cutting corners or forgetting about their protection. There will be plenty of lessons learned from this pandemic re medical professionals you would hope. Of course the mental toll on doctors and nurses is another matter entirely especially in the hardest hit countries.
 
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on the lightest side of the virus..if there is such a thing.
. Stone Delicious IPA for $2 bucks..16oz w a lid..Big Gulp..32oz margaritas for $8 dollars..$1.99 upgrade to Cadillac..and yes better tequila and Gran Manier make a difference.
And drum roll..from Applebee's!!
a place I never go..first time in California have I seen a top shelf..top notch..flavorful cocktail dispensed in a take away convenience store format.

7-11 take note..improve your products..Jose..or Patron w my Big Bite!!!
Don't see ready to drink cocktails as long term thing..Glad I could help the economy..not sure I am aiming much higher than the folks I trash for tattoo and nail service..
Weather in Ensenada was 83..beaches closed.
90% of everything closed
 
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These numbers unfortunately tell so little. I tried to find out which countries did how much testing. I know they are from now on testing way more people in Germany, want to test even those with any symptoms of a cold (which they absolutely didn't before), but I don't know if that actually happens.
Well, a tendency can probably be deduced, but if the criteria and numbers change constantly and are different in each country anyway, and we are not really told about them, how can we "work" with these numbers?

Unless a country is decreasing the number of tests run per day over time, I think the number of active cases is very informative. It doesn't matter if the testers are missing asymptomatic individuals, because from a population point of view, they're only relevant if they are a source of infection of symptomatics. And a decline of active cases would indicate they aren't. IOW, if active symptomatic individuals are decreasing, so must active asymptomatics.

A continued decline of active cases has to mean that the reproductive number, R0, is less than one, and that eventually the spread of the virus will be stopped.

I just question whether signs of viral RNA in a swab always means active infection. If you cohabit with a person shedding virus and you breath some into your nose and it gets controlled by your localized innate immune response (no adaptive response), is that something that might be detected as a positive? Is there an empirical difference between viral exposure and viral infection? AFAIK, there has been no close-contact testing of people here in the USA to even generate data on that.

Ah, I see what you're getting at. Yes, i mentioned that problem upthread. In theory, you can have a quantity of virus in your body that is not sufficient to trigger the immune system--or as you point out, only triggers an early nonspecific response, but not the response that results in antibodies. That actually seems like a reasonable explanation for some of these studies that find very high proportions of asymptomatics. My understanding is that it takes probably several hundred CoV particles to infect someone. In theory, one could certainly detect fewer than that by PCR, if they were concentrated in some area accessible to the swab.

This is a situation where even some of those questionable Ab tests that might have high numbers of false positives could be useful. If, e.g., you have 50-90% of some population that tests positive for the virus, but only 5-10% are eventually Ab positive, you have a pretty good idea that the virus positive in most cases does not indicate infection. Continued lack of symptoms would further strengthen this conclusion.

Here in Slovakia antibody testing in home cares started today. Authorities want test all 37 000+ workers and about 42 000 clients. If they find positives they will test them and their contacts with PCR test. I am curious about results. It is quite large sample. About 1,5% of population.

The link doesn't actually say antibodies. I assume you maybe have more information that specifies that. I'm not sure why they would test for Abs, though, if they want to follow up with tracing their contacts, since by then it might be too late. I guess they could use antibodies to target people who are more likely to be positive. But many who are positive for antibodies are likely to be negative for the virus, and vice-versa.
 
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It seems that many people are avoiding medical centres now including people with chronic diseases. Cancer patients though are taking real risks delaying their treatment. Probably partly for financial reasons. Elective surgery in Australia was put on hold but now it is being opened up again because the hospital bed situation didn't get out of hand. When you see what is happening in hospitals and nursing homes I can understand some people being wary of going to medical centres or doctor's surgeries. The amount of medical professionals that have not only been infected but also died, globally is a concern. Some countries obviously don't have the proper equipment and not enough, some were totally unprepared it seems, some couldn't source the equipment in time after other countries got in first etc..........but it's a worry when even doctors that have the best equipment are being infected. Obviously this virus is very hard to contain and I guess overworked medical professionals are also sometimes cutting corners or forgetting about their protection. There will be plenty of lessons learned from this pandemic re medical professionals you would hope. Of course the mental toll on doctors and nurses is another matter entirely especially in the hardest hit countries.

I did research in HK and could only find 2 infections for medical professionals - My understanding is the figure is low in some other Asian countries ( excluding Mainland China ) and i guess the PPE would be similar - Could it be that some of these medical professionals caught the virus out in the community ?
 
The link doesn't actually say antibodies. I assume you maybe have more information that specifies that. I'm not sure why they would test for Abs, though, if they want to follow up with tracing their contacts, since by then it might be too late. I guess they could use antibodies to target people who are more likely to be positive. But many who are positive for antibodies are likely to be negative for the virus, and vice-versa.

Well, there was press conference about that. They are using "quick test" from blood. I assumed that they will test for antibodies. They called it screening not testing. If they will find some cluster they will be testing by PCR tests to find infectious people and quarantined them. If I understood it correctly they want test everybody who turns positive in blood testing by PCR test. Minister of health said some time ago it is not real to test everybody by PCR. We did not tested 80k people up to this date and with 4800 tests which is daily record we would testing about ten days only home care workers and patients. They are hoping they get better view abaout situation in home cares.
 
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The leading epidemiology body here in Belgium says that it has become clear that schools and school children are not the motor of the epidemic, in contrast to many other diseases. The main route for infection seems to be between (working) adults, not from children to adults.
Isn't this a bit dubious? I mean, in most countries closing the schools was one of the first things that were done. Children have largely only been in contact with their own families since then. In Spain, for example, the vast majority of children weren't even allowed outside until a couple of days ago. In this context, how could children have been the main route for infection? This has little to no bearing on whether or not they'd be if the schools reopened.
 
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I did research in HK and could only find 2 infections for medical professionals - My understanding is the figure is low in some other Asian countries ( excluding Mainland China ) and i guess the PPE would be similar - Could it be that some of these medical professionals caught the virus out in the community ?
Of course it's possible. But the medical community in Spain, Italy and New York and the UK at least ,were constantly talking about PPE shortages and poor quality protection. You would think these people would be extra vigilant outside of the workplace. Maybe in countries like Italy the old were also infecting the younger people as well but as has already been noted, Italy is a very physically affectionate country, a lot more so than Germany etc.........so hugging and kissing etc also probably played a role until the social distancing warnings were made.
 
Cause for concern ?

This from the article:
"Is it related to Covid-19?
That is the concern, but doctors don’t know. Hospitals have seen it in children who have tested positive and negative for the coronavirus, but test results are not 100% reliable. It may be a rare coronavirus-related inflammatory syndrome that has taken time to come to light, or it may be caused by another pathogen entirely. The NHS said it was important for clinicians to be aware of any emerging links so they can give children the right care quickly."

If its related, its a concern, but if its not related it might be a bigger concern,
 
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Isn't this a bit dubious? I mean, in most countries closing the schools was one of the first things that were done. Children have largely only been in contact with their own families since then. In Spain, for example, the vast majority of children weren't even allowed outside until a couple of days ago. In this context, how could children have been the main route for infection? This has little to no bearing on whether or not they'd be if the schools reopened.
When I read that, I assumed that they (Belgium) had actually studied kids who were still in school. If they are just referring to kids in general then your point is very important.

EDIT: I was a little surprised that kids/schools weren't a place of concern because usually they are the center of virus/bacteria issue just by the nature of jamming that many bodies into a small space. I was hoping the the Belgian Doc was onto something...

As we discussed a week or two ago, opening schools is a first step to opening other business. You must assure the safety of the children, but you must also assure the safety of the adults working with them.
 
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The conclusion was made based on the situation before lock-downs began, and based on multiple countries. To be fair, I haven't seen a study on it myself, and there is some debate about the importance of children among epidemiologists. It is fair to say that they are hit much harder by the measures against the disease than by the disease itself. Looking at the possibility of opening up schools again should - in my opinion - not only be based on rates of infection spread through schools, but also by taking into account psychological effects, possible increases in inequality because of home-schooling, violence at home, etc.