Coronavirus: How dangerous a threat?

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Right taking into consideration the article I linked to from the BBC that there was a person who likely was infected who returned from Wuhan around 17th to 18th of December

What we know is that generally it has around a 3dayish doubling rate, however this will widely differ when the numbers of infected are small depending on there general lifestyles

So it is possible that this outbreak (it it was Corona virus) could have spread slower than 3 days doubling and if say by the end of January there where around 1000 cases (just an estimate) then this would not have a significant effect on the UK death rate but might explain why the UK is one of the worse infected countries.

The current estimates for the number of people in the UK (a few weeks ago) that have had it was 10% in London and 4% nationally, which would be over 2.4 million people
 
That sounds plausible to me. There are a lot of possibilities for why certain places got hit hard and others were not. It could be timing, it could be policy related, or it could be that the virus got lucky and one of the early spreaders went to a big event. Small effects early can change the trajectory drastically. Once you get above 100 cases, the shapes become more predictable as randomness tends to cancel itself out.

As I mentioned upthread, getting to zero is much, much harder than bending and breaking the curve. China is seeing that now and it will be something Australia and New Zealand will experience shortly.

View: https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1260050233033179137
 
So, homeschooling. Brings some fun into your life. (My son has a friend who does it all by himself, mother does not have to deal with it at all, okay. Congratulations, very good educational job.). But somewhere in the future (not yet known when exactly) my child will attend school again. They will go to school for two or three days a week, 200 minutes per day, presence does not have the aim of teaching and spreading wisdom (they will still get tasks sent for this), but to socialize. No tests for the rest of the school year, instead jokes, telling stories and black stories are recommended.
Strict hygiene measures are taken, but no masks in school required. There's fun stuff in this mail they got, like: one toilet will be open. If you want to use it, you have to go and ask for some signboard (which can not be desinfected at school, so please bring your own desinfection spray, if you want to use it). Of course, no playing around, no moving through the building on your own, paths are marked. No touching, strict sitting at your place during the lessons, and so on... Sounds like they are going to have fun!
Well, jokes aside, I can see some sense in those restrictions but all in all I can't help laughing about the absurdity of the situation.
 
That sounds plausible to me. There are a lot of possibilities for why certain places got hit hard and others were not. It could be timing, it could be policy related, or it could be that the virus got lucky and one of the early spreaders went to a big event. Small effects early can change the trajectory drastically. Once you get above 100 cases, the shapes become more predictable as randomness tends to cancel itself out.

As I mentioned upthread, getting to zero is much, much harder than bending and breaking the curve. China is seeing that now and it will be something Australia and New Zealand will experience shortly.

View: https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1260050233033179137
Some of the US's early opening states are already seeing a rise in new cases; some were stupidly reopened without a decline in new cases. The big, new clusters come from closely confined work environments where the employers continued "business as usual". We're still taking a potential resurgence seriously in Washington State with the local Worker Safety agency setting guidelines consistent with CDC recommendations.....that the White House won't allow released nationally. A lot of mixed messages across the US, for sure.
 
So, homeschooling. Brings some fun into your life. (My son has a friend who does it all by himself, mother does not have to deal with it at all, okay. Congratulations, very good educational job.). But somewhere in the future (not yet known when exactly) my child will attend school again. They will go to school for two or three days a week, 200 minutes per day, presence does not have the aim of teaching and spreading wisdom (they will still get tasks sent for this), but to socialize. No tests for the rest of the school year, instead jokes, telling stories and black stories are recommended.
Strict hygiene measures are taken, but no masks in school required. There's fun stuff in this mail they got, like: one toilet will be open. If you want to use it, you have to go and ask for some signboard (which can not be desinfected at school, so please bring your own desinfection spray, if you want to use it). Of course, no playing around, no moving through the building on your own, paths are marked. No touching, strict sitting at your place during the lessons, and so on... Sounds like they are going to have fun!
Well, jokes aside, I can see some sense in those restrictions but all in all I can't help laughing about the absurdity of the situation.
In Belgium, schools are partly reopening starting Friday (just before the weekend, so they have time to adjust/ameliorate some things). In primary school, it's the 1st, 2nd and 6th grade that restart. My children are in 3rd, 4th and 5th grade... Anyway, those grades are seen as the most crucial, as the ones in grade 1 and 2 (6 and 7-year-olds) are difficult to homeschool, and the 6th grade is the last one before secundary school. Classes will be split up to create more distance between pupils, so in fact they need double the amount of teachers. So the teachers from grades 3-5 will step in, but these also need to prepare the distance-learning assignments for their own pupils. In classes, the ones in the last row will have to enter class first, and leave last. There are a number of rules in place to avoid children coming too close to one another, but I really can't see how this will happen in reality. Six and seven-year-olds in the playground, all in their little bubble? Hmmm... Anyway, another interesting social and behavioural experiment...
 
Really interesting exchange between Fauci and Rand Paul, a Republican Senator:

SEN. RAND PAUL: Dr. Fauci, scientists have shown that rhesus monkeys that are infected with COVID-19 cannot be reinfected. Several studies have also shown that plasma from recently infected coronavirus patients neutralizes the virus and lab experiments. In addition, infusion of convalescent plasma is based on the idea that recovering coronavirus patients are developing immunity and that it could be beneficial as donated.

Studies show that the recovering COVID-19 patients from the asymptomatic to the very sick are showing significant antibody response. Studies show that SARS and MERS, also coronaviruses, induce immunity for at least 2 to 3 years, and yet the media continues to report that we have no evidence that patients who survive coronavirus have immunity. I think actually the truth is the opposite. We have no evidence that survivors of coronavirus don't have immunity and a great deal of evidence to suggest that they do.

With regard to going back to school, one thing that was left out of that discussion is mortality. I mean, shouldn't we at least be discussing what the mortality of children is? This is for Dr. Fauci as well. You know, the mortality between zero and 18 in the New York data approaches zero. It's not going to be absolutely zero, but it almost approaches zero. Between 18 and 45, the mortality in New York was 10 out of 100,000.

FAUCI: Well, first of all Senator Paul thank you for your comments. I--I have never made myself out to be the end-all and only voice in this. I am a scientist, a physician and a public health official. I give advice according to the best scientific evidence. There are a number of other people who come into that and give advice that are more related to the things that you spoke about the need to get the country back open again and economically. I don't give advice about economic things, I don't give advice about anything other than public health so I wanted to respond to that.

The second thing is that you used the word we should be humble about what we don't know and I think that falls under the fact that we don't know everything about this virus and we really better be very careful particularly when it comes to children because the more and more we learn we are seeing things about what this virus can do that we didn't see from the studies in China or in Europe. For example right now children presenting with COVID-16--COVID-19 who actually have a very strange inflammatory syndrome very similar to Kawasaki syndrome I think we had better be careful if we are not cavalier in thinking that children are completely immune to the deleterious effects so again you are right in the numbers that children in general do much, much better than adults and the elderly and particularly those with underlying conditions but I am very careful and hopefully humble in knowing that I don't know everything about this disease and that is why I am very reserved in making broad predictions. Thank you.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...o_your_advice_but_you_dont_get_to_decide.html
 
There is the 'damage' to children because of covid-19 (including Kawasaki-like syndromes), and there is the damage to them because of the lack of contact with friends, suboptimal education, potential rise in conflicts at home, etc. Asking a virologist only yields information on the former, not on the latter, while both should be considered.
 
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I think the Kawasaki-type illness will be treatable in most cases. Especially now that it is more widely known. But that is yet another downside of letting a novel virus loose in the populace. The clotting issues and now the inflammatory conditions were not obvious from smaller outbreaks. But once you start infecting millions, they will start to pop up. I agree with Fauci that we do need to be cautious. I never saw a persuasive reason to reopen schools here in the USA before June. We need more data about transmission and more time to delineate new protective strategies for teachers, many of whom are elderly. Having your teacher die in the middle of the year is not without lasting effects on kids either. By fall, I imagine the elementary and middle schools will be open. I seriously doubt high schools will be. And I will bet my house that universities will not.

Lost amongst the education exchange above is that is becoming increasingly clear that Fauci is being readied to be thrown under the bus. Chyron seen last night on Tucker Carlson's show. "Unelected Fauci has been leading this country". Later called him the chief buffoon.
 
I never saw a persuasive reason to reopen schools here in the USA before June. We need more data about transmission and more time to delineate new protective strategies for teachers, many of whom are elderly. Having your teacher die in the middle of the year is not without lasting effects on kids either. By fall, I imagine the elementary and middle schools will be open. I seriously doubt high schools will be. And I will bet my house that universities will not.
The USA is behind the curve, so you should have plenty of data soon from other countries. So far, in the European countries that reopened schools, no resurgence in infections has been seen. The same goes for several Asian countries. The downsides of keeping children away from schools are not fully clear, but several are already starting to show. Increases in domestic abuse have been reported in several countries for instance. This should not be ignored.
 
Really interesting exchange between Fauci and Rand Paul, a Republican Senator:







https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...o_your_advice_but_you_dont_get_to_decide.html
This quote from Paul: "We can listen to your advice but there are people on the other side saying there's not going to be a surge and that we can safely open the economy and the facts will bear this out...". Who is "the other side"? The people who don't believe in science? Does anybody really believe that there won't be another wave?

So let me translate: "We can listen to advice from people who understand disease, or we can listen to people who don't".
 
There is the 'damage' to children because of covid-19 (including Kawasaki-like syndromes), and there is the damage to them because of the lack of contact with friends, suboptimal education, potential rise in conflicts at home, etc. Asking a virologist only yields information on the former, not on the latter, while both should be considered.
I agree. Through this crisis governments have largely taken the advice of epidemiologists and virologists but there has been lack of consideration of lockdown impacts on children, education, the economy, mental health etc. I am dealing with a 16 year old in senior high school who is struggling with the social isolation. Not helping his schooling or mental health at all. Governments need to recognise balancing all needs not a myopic focus on flattening COVID-19 infection curves.

But we are now entering a crucial period, will relaxing restrictions see a 2nd wave of infections? The global case count chart is frightening. No signs of flattening as it has in places like China, Australia or New Zealand. In some places like Russia the infection rate has accelerated, in the UK restrictions merely stopped the increase it did not lower the daily infections.
 
I agree. Through this crisis governments have largely taken the advice of epidemiologists and virologists but there has been lack of consideration of lockdown impacts on children, education, the economy, mental health etc. I am dealing with a 16 year old in senior high school who is struggling with the social isolation. Not helping his schooling or mental health at all. Governments need to recognise balancing all needs not a myopic focus on flattening COVID-19 infection curves.

But we are now entering a crucial period, will relaxing restrictions see a 2nd wave of infections? The global case count chart is frightening. No signs of flattening as it has in places like China, Australia or New Zealand. In some places like Russia the infection rate has accelerated, in the UK restrictions merely stopped the increase it did not lower the daily infections.
This is tough on everyone, but I'm less worried about kids because they don't have the pressures that adults do (take care of the family) in many cases, but they also might not have the skills required to deal with it (same goes for many adults I suppose). What has a greater impact on a kid: knowing that them going to school might have contributed to a family members death, or them only being able to interact with their peers via some type of social interface (Meets, Zoom, Skype, Face Time...). Now add in that they can also meet in person as long as they keep their distance in many places.

I'm not sure that there is a balance with a virus that is raging until we figure out how to slow it.

NOTES: There are about a dozen teens who meet regularly at the school a block from me. They sit in the grass and mostly just talk. Hopefully that is helping them at least some.
I see more teens on the trails than I ever have so again hopefully this is one way they are coping with the situation.
 
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The thing is, you don’t have to be an educational expert—certainly, Rand Paul is not—to have some understanding of the effects of closing schools. Fauci has three kids, and probably gets this just as much as Paul does.

While I support some opening, if it’s done cautiously, I think there is some hypocrisy involved. Proponents of opening commonly cite mortality figures that indicate only the old and others with certain conditions are at risk, and “we can protect them.” Protect them how? The only way they can be protected is by continuing to stay at home. IOW, while younger people shouldn’t have to be forced to stay at home for more than a month or two, it’s fine to force that on older people for…how long, six months, a year, till a vaccine is maybe available?

To be fair, most older people are retired, so they don’t have to go to work. But they do have to go out to buy food and for other essential needs. If people think it’s risky now, where maybe on average one in a hundred people is infectious, how much worse will it be when it becomes one in ten, or higher? Some people at the grocery store will for sure be infectious, and an older person knows that if s/he catches the virus, there is about a 10% chance of dying—and a much higher risk of being hospitalized, and if surviving, maybe having serious health effects indefinitely.

Preliminary results of Spain's seroprevalence study suggest ~5% of the population has antibodies, with the most heavily affected provinces at 11-14%.

The 5% figure is about ten times the % of confirmed cases, which is in line with what antibody and other data are suggesting elsewhere. The estimated mortality rate is then about 1.1%, again, within the range, more or less, of what many other studies are suggesting. The sample tested was 60,000, which should result in a very low level of uncertainty, assuming care was taken to ensure randomness (and that the false positive rate was relatively low).

It was also reported that just 26% of the cases were asymptomatic. They must have reached this conclusion from either testing also by PCR and/or (more likely) through questionnaires. This figure, too, is within the general range of what other studies suggest, and also indicates that a lot of people with symptoms are not being tested.

But results from the Stanford study in conjunction with MLB are now in, and only 0.7% were positive:

Researchers received 6,237 completed surveys from employees of 26 clubs. That led to 5,754 samples obtained in the U.S. on April 14 and 15 and 5,603 records that were used. The survey kit had a 0.5% false positive rate.]/quote]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...yees-coronavirus-antibodies-study/3106549001/

The uncertainty in this study was higher--only 60 people actually tested positive, and almost half of them were estimated to be false positives--but clearly the rate was lower than for other studies. One of the study leaders suggests that the players and employees have been particularly careful since spring training began in February-March.

Imagine, though, if this study had come out before the two in CA that claimed as many as 50-85 times as many people had been infected as were confirmed positive tests. What a counterpoint.

By the way, the Stanford study nicely illustrates the difference in value of an antibody test for society vs. for individuals. For society, the results give an indication of how many people have been infected by the virus. The sample might not have been fully random, given it focussed on people associated with MLB. But it did test people from all over the country, which is certainly a major point in its favor. You can't argue that the very low seroprevalence was due to testing people in some area where there have been very few cases.

In fact, you could even argue that focussing on MLB employees was an advantage towards randomness. In most so-called randomly selected antibody tests to date, people volunteer. People are probably more likely to do that if they think they have had the virus, or are at risk for that. In contrast, as i understand it, everyone in MLB was encouraged to volunteer, so people were more motivated by helping the study than learning their status. Also, of course, the fact that the seroprevalence was so low indicates that very few in the study had been infected by the virus, and thus presumably relatively few who had been at risk.

On the other hand, the study has much less value for individuals. Since nearly half the positives were estimated to be false positives, no one who tested positive can have any confidence that s/he really was positive. The people who tested negative, however, can be very certain that they were negative. The false negative rate was about 25%, but that's expressed as a proportion of positives, which was a very small number. As a proportion of all the people who tested negative, the rate of false negatives was < 0.2%.
 
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One of the most remarkable stories of this pandemic is SE Asia. Eight countries—Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Myanamar, Singapore, Brunei, Timor, and Laos—have a combined population of about 250 million people, yet less than 100 deaths, combined. Singapore has about 25,000 cases, and Thailand about 3000, but the other six countries combined (175 million people) have only about 775 cases and just 7 deaths, total.

Throw in the other three—Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines—adding a combined 415 million people, and still only about 33,000 cases and 1900 deaths. So all told, for a region with about twice as many people as the U.S., a total of about 62,000 cases and 2000 deaths.

Then you could throw in three other countries/states in that general region--Taiwan, S. Korea and Hong Kong--with a combined population of about 80 million, and they add just 12,500 cases and 270 deaths, 90% or more from S. Korea.
 
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I have a 12year old, he'd like to see his friends more, but he's okay, I think. After all there are countries in which summer holidays take three months. If there is a perspective of getting the teenagers back to school, activities and groups of friends I think most of them will be able to deal with this more or less. (One of his friends has parents who work from morning to evening though, not at home, no siblings, he's pretty much alone all day, apart from a few visits to his closest friends. I don't feel great about that.) I think the most important thing is that they are allowed out and allowed to see some friends, even if not in groups.

But I do especially feel for singles with small children. When my son was two or three I was sometimes close to a nervous breakdown. I did not have family around, most of my friends had moved away, I had to study. The woman who looked after him a good deal of the day saved me. So I'm thinking about those single parents with more than one small child. In Germany the next step of opening nurseries is to allow children of single parents back, even if those parents do not work in system-relevant jobs, and I think that is such an important, long overdue step. I hope it's the same in other countries.
Also, I don't know what it's like in other countries, the discussion here is mostly led by academics, working from home. That annoys me, even if I'm part of that group. How do you set up your home office, how do you deal with the children around, bla bla, I can understand that, but there are people with other problems right now.

On the other hand I am starting to get angry with the people who are not willing to do the small things, like to keep their distance in supermarkets, to not meet many friends, to abstain from parties. How hard can that be, even for a very sociable person?
 
One of the most remarkable stories of this pandemic is SE Asia. Eight countries—Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Myanamar, Singapore, Brunei, Timor, and Laos—have a combined population of about 250 million people, yet less than 100 deaths, combined. Singapore has about 25,000 cases, and Thailand about 3000, but the other six countries combined (175 million people) have only about 775 cases and just 7 deaths, total.

Throw in the other three—Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines—adding a combined 415 million people, and still only about 33,000 cases and 1900 deaths. So all told, for a region with about twice as many people as the U.S., a total of about 62,000 cases and 2000 deaths.

Then you could throw in three other countries/states in that general region--Taiwan, S. Korea and Hong Kong--with a combined population of about 80 million, and they add just 12,500 cases and 270 deaths, 90% or more from S. Korea.
I'd like to see estimates on number of 'seeds' in various countries. That together with early responses (or not) should give a good idea of the potential of the infection to proliferate. Deviance from that could then be attributed to other effects: genetics, culture, climate, age structure, obesity levels, etc.

At the same time, we should also be careful with reported numbers. Russia for example is reporting very few deaths compared to their infection numbers, but there are plenty of indications that many people have died from corona but weren't counted as such. Brazil: inadequate testing and massive under-reporting of covid-mortality. Plenty of other examples exist.
 
I heard something about diabetes treatment maybe affecting the death rate as well. (That if you have it but are diagnosed and the treatment is well adjusted it helps a lot. So countries with either small diabetes numbers or early diagnoses and good treatment could do better.) But I think it was an assumption of a doctor, not a study.
 
We wont know the real figures for most countries until a few years time, countries like the UK seem fairly transparent in that you can see the number of all dead compared to previous years, these are the numbers we need from all countries compared to previous years.

I think another thing to bear in mind that obesity makes people more susceptible to the worse effects, I suspect that it is higher in western countries to Asian ones.
 
What if Fauci is right and opening for May/June will lead to much more death and economic fall than holding the line for those two months?
They literally don't care. They will just find someone to blame. It is all a con. Does the used car salesman have remorse after selling a lemon to a customer? Same mentality.

The false promise of a return to normalcy is easier to swallow than the hard truth of reality. This is the time of the year where we should be winning and preparing for the real battle in the fall. Instead, we have a bunch of Wisconsin folk celebrating that their bars are open and the public is being told that the virus will go away on its own. In the USA, we just have to hope that individual decision making is pragmatic enough to weather the storm.

At the same time, we should also be careful with reported numbers. Russia for example is reporting very few deaths compared to their infection numbers, but there are plenty of indications that many people have died from corona but weren't counted as such. Brazil: inadequate testing and massive under-reporting of covid-mortality. Plenty of other examples exist.
Ecuador.
 
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