correct way to pedal

[CoachFergie]

Why don't you find a reference to prove me wrong. Shouldn't be too hard for you.

Here is a simple one for the Rigor Mortis statement.

So years of study and the best you can do is wikipedia. What next, a blog page?

 

[FrankDay]

So years of study and the best you can do is wikipedia. What next, a blog page?

What good would it do to post a link to some highly technical paper filled with medical jargon to make a point to this audience. Anesthesiologists spend years trying to understand the nuances of this stuff as it pertains to the heart. It is hardly possible to transmit all of those nuances to lay people in this forum. I did the best job I could given the circumstances and what I thought appropriate for this audience.

If you or anyone else thinks my explanation incorrect feel free to tell everyone where you think I am incorrect and why.

edit: one more piece of evidence that most of the increase in stroke volume has to be coming from increased relaxation. In cardiac physiology there is a term called ejection fraction. The fraction of the blood in the heart at end diastole (when there is the most) that is ejected during the contraction. This is usually more than 50% in healthy hearts. The stroke volume of a trained endurance athlete is typicaly 2-3 times that of the sedentary individual. Even if it were possible to get the blood volume at end contraction down to zero it would not be possible to double the stroke volume. While ejection fraction does increase some in athletes, this is mostly due to the starting volume is greater (due to a more relaxed heart during diastole) instead of a smaller volume at end contraction. And, since athletes frequently have a thicker cardiac wall we would expect less compliance if muscle relaxation were unchanged but we actually have more compliance. Increased muscle relaxation is the only possible explanation.

 

[CoachFergie]

Well we do understand the contempt you have for us dumb fools. Try us. It's not like you havent been found to be telling porkies before.

 

[oldborn]

Frank, even authopsy would not help. The Dude is allways wright.
Unbelievable.

I am watching masterchef show now

 

[FrankDay]

Well we do understand the contempt you have for us dumb fools. Try us. It's not like you havent been found to be telling porkies before.

If I had contempt for most of the people here I wouldn't even attempt to explain. However, if anyone does not understand my explanation then either I didn't do a very good job or the listener doesn't have the background or capability to understand this technical issue (perhaps there is some of both).

Perhaps, if you are still not understanding, you could find a friend who is an anesthesiologist (a cardiologist or intensive care specialist should understand this also) and he (or she) could sit down with you and teach you about this.

 

[CoachFergie]

So if it was so complex then why raise it in the first place? Just more claims without any supporting evidence which is fairly typical Frank.

 

[FrankDay]

So if it was so complex then why raise it in the first place? Just more claims without any supporting evidence which is fairly typical Frank.

Why raise it in the first place? Well, in part, because Steve Hogg got it wrong and a link was given to his explanation. If I don't bring it up a guy like Steve, who has tried to think about it but doesn't have the background to figure it out correctly, puts out wrong information and everyone thinks it is correct, cause he knows more than they do. And, if I didn't say anything about this people might think I agreed with what he said. Simply trying to set the record straight and give enough additional information such that the interested could see that there is a basis for my disagreeing beyond my simply being a disagreeable sort.

 

[CoachFergie]

You haven't supplied additional info to support your position. So at present it's your word verses his.

 

[FrankDay]

You haven't supplied additional info to support your position. So at present it's your word verses his.

OK, if you say so. At least everyone knows I disagree with what was said. I thought I gave a basis for my thoughts but apparently I failed, at least as regards you. After you have completed medical school and done your residency (depending upon what it is) then maybe we can discuss this again.

 

[FrankDay]

You haven't supplied additional info to support your position. So at present it's your word verses his.

Hey Fergie, a simple google search found this: Effects of physical training on end-diastolic volume and myocardial performance of isolated rat hearts

From the abstract: "Faster relaxation is a prominent effect of physical training on the rat heart and may foster more complete filling at high heart rates. " But, alas. done in a rat heart and way back in 1977. What possibly could it mean for us today?

And, found this. Slightly more technical since it is from a cardiac anesthesia textbook but I am sure with your broad background you will have no trouble understanding it now that it isn't me telling you this stuff (can't trust a thing I say, can you?)

What could this "active relaxation" be they refer to?

Of course, I am sure the question you are now asking is: How can any of this stuff have any thing to do with cycling since none of this work was done by exercise physiologists or published in the exercise physiology literature?

 

[CoachFergie]

OK, if you say so. At least everyone knows I disagree with what was said. I thought I gave a basis for my thoughts but apparently I failed, at least as regards you. After you have completed medical school and done your residency (depending upon what it is) then maybe we can discuss this again.

Nice dodge Frank, so what you wrote on this cycling forum was only for the benefit of other Physicians cause us plebs wouldn't understand it.

I expect that after asking several times and watching you side step each time you don't really have any evidence. Just another Frank Day IMHO.

 

[CoachFergie]

Of course, I am sure the question you are now asking is: How can any of this stuff have any thing to do with cycling since none of this work was done by exercise physiologists or published in the exercise physiology literature?

More likely: ha ha Frank didn't actually think before writing that post if that is the best reference he can come up with to support yet another, as yet, unsupported claim.

 

[FrankDay]

More likely: ha ha Frank didn't actually think before writing that post if that is the best reference he can come up with to support yet another, as yet, unsupported claim.

Damn Fergie, you caught me again. Got to start thinking before I start the old fingers typing. I will try to do better in the future.

 

[Davobel]

Not a dumb question at all, in virtually everything that we do we can become more aware or conscious of what we are doing. To get a more even/symmetrical pedal stroke you can try using a Wattbike or some rollers. Remember that because we have ridden bikes for so long without cleats, the actual neurological habit of pedaling will want to revert to the 'old' way of pedaling. When we learn any knew skill there are 4 phases.
(1) Unconscious incompetence (we aren't aware of what we don't know)
(2) Conscious incompetence (we are aware of what we don't know)
(3) Conscious competence (we become competent but we have to think about it) and
(4) Unconscious competence (we are competent but don't have to focus on the activity)

Remember, practice does NOT make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect

 

[Tapeworm]

"Perfect is the enemy of good".

 

[FrankDay]

"Perfect is the enemy of good".

I am not sure exactly what the point of this post was as it relates to this thread.

1. No one can state with any scientific proof as to whether there is a "perfect", let alone, best pedaling style.

2. Even if we did have the information that stated that there was a better or "perfect" pedaling style, few have any data to know what their style is because that can't be known without pedal force data. Such data isn't widely available (although it is supposedly coming). How can one even attempt to "perfect" a style without such data, knowing where they are now and where they want to go?

3. And, as regards pedaling technique, there is zero evidence that trying to "perfect" one's style (whatever that might be) makes anyone worse or trying to change to another, presumably more perfect, style makes anyone worse. Lance Armstrong, it has previously been noted, tried to "perfect" his technique and it seemed to work out ok for him.

There are lots of times trying to go beyond "good enough" results in disaster but there is no evidence that pedaling technique is one of these areas.

 

[function]

More likely: ha ha Frank didn't actually think before writing that post if that is the best reference he can come up with to support yet another, as yet, unsupported claim.

You seem so certain of yourself, surely it should be no trouble posting a coherent counter argument with references (The Simpsons does not count).

 

[CoachFergie]

1. No one can state with any scientific proof as to whether there is a "perfect", let alone, best pedaling style.

Strawman. Nothing is ever proved. Evidence is presented and evaluated on the strength of the data.

2. Even if we did have the information that stated that there was a better or "perfect" pedaling style, few have any data to know what their style is because that can't be known without pedal force data. Such data isn't widely available (although it is supposedly coming). How can one even attempt to "perfect" a style without such data, knowing where they are now and where they want to go?

Red Herring. Plenty of research out there using force vector measuring pedals showing the influence of pedalling on performance is minimal.

3. And, as regards pedaling technique, there is zero evidence that trying to "perfect" one's style (whatever that might be) makes anyone worse or trying to change to another, presumably more perfect, style makes anyone worse. Lance Armstrong, it has previously been noted, tried to "perfect" his technique and it seemed to work out ok for him.

Speculation. You have zero evidence that Armstrong did any type of training to perfect his technique. A coaching blog is not evidence. Especially Armstrong who was well know for sending out mixed messages in racing and training to confuse the competition.

There are lots of times trying to go beyond "good enough" results in disaster but there is no evidence that pedaling technique is one of these areas.

Strawman, Red Herrings and Speculation. A fairly typical Frank Day post.

 

[oldborn]

Strawman. Nothing is ever proved. Evidence is presented and evaluated on the strength of the data..

Sure, you are wright as allways

Red Herring. Plenty of research out there using force vector measuring pedals showing the influence of pedalling on performance is minimal...

But zero evidence show us that it could not help us, and plenty showing that there is something.

Speculation. You have zero evidence that Armstrong did any type of training to perfect his technique. A coaching blog is not evidence. Especially Armstrong who was well know for sending out mixed messages in racing and training to confuse the competition. ...

Do you have any evidence which might confirm oposite.
Wait, you do not, as allways.

Strawman, Red Herrings and Speculation. A fairly typical Frank Day post.

Is not that yours description Dude?
Do yourself a favor, stop posting and start coaching.

 

[Boeing]

Strawman. Nothing is ever proved. Evidence is presented and evaluated on the strength of the data.



Red Herring. Plenty of research out there using force vector measuring pedals showing the influence of pedalling on performance is minimal.



Speculation. You have zero evidence that Armstrong did any type of training to perfect his technique. A coaching blog is not evidence. Especially Armstrong who was well know for sending out mixed messages in racing and training to confuse the competition.



Strawman, Red Herrings and Speculation. A fairly typical Frank Day post.

ok now we get a laundry list of logic 101. ok you went to university for atleast the first year. what sorority btw?

you sound like a Tri Delt.

 

[oldborn]

He joined Glee Club, but after while he get pregnant. That explain hormonal disorder simptoms pretty much.

 

[Barrus]

All of you, stop it with the personal attacks and insults

 

[Tapeworm]

I am not sure exactly what the point of this post was as it relates to this thread.

It pertains to the post right above mine.

And it's a quote from someone else, Mark Rippetoe. I believe the intention of the statement that by trying to obtain "perfection" we overlook "good". And most of us haven't got to good yet (whatever that may be).

 

[acoggan]

Hey Fergie, a simple google search found this: Effects of physical training on end-diastolic volume and myocardial performance of isolated rat hearts

How can any of this stuff have any thing to do with cycling since none of this work was done by exercise physiologists or published in the exercise physiology literature?

Huh? You quote a study by someone (i.e., Scheur) with ever right to call themselves an exercise physiologist, then say that none of the work has been done by exercise physiologists??

In any case, there are significant differences between how rat and human hearts adapt to exercise training. That's why studies such as the one below are still important:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1537731

even though the primary mechanism accounting for the increase in stroke volume with endurance training is an increase in pre-load (Frank-Starling mechanism).

And with that I gotta run...another experiment today in which we're measuring substrate metabolism by the heart (some people read the literature, and some people help write the literature...).

 

[FrankDay]

In any case, there are significant differences between how rat and human hearts adapt to exercise training. That's why studies such as the one below are still important:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1537731

I would be interested in knowing what those significant differences between rat and human heart adaption to exercise are and how they relate to this side discussion about muscle relaxation. There are significant differences between fruit flies and humans also but that doesn't mean that all studies done on fruit flies have no applicability to humans. So, is it possible for you to stay on topic as I was talking about muscle relaxation and you reference a study on contractility.

even though the primary mechanism accounting for the increase in stroke volume with endurance training is an increase in pre-load (Frank-Starling mechanism).

Ugh, wasn't that my point? Why don't you define pre-load for the folks Dr. Coggan so the folks here can understand how it relates to my point that exercise improves the ability of muscle to relax.

And with that I gotta run...another experiment today in which we're measuring substrate metabolism by the heart (some people read the literature, and some people help write the literature...).

Yes, some people generate a small part of the data whole and others have to analyze the whole and apply it to real life. One group surely is superior to the other. You really know how to shoot a person down. LOL. Those who can do, those who can't teach, or so some say.