correct way to pedal

[FrankDay]

It pertains to the post right above mine.

And it's a quote from someone else, Mark Rippetoe. I believe the intention of the statement that by trying to obtain "perfection" we overlook "good". And most of us haven't got to good yet (whatever that may be).

Well, I believe the point of his post was that if one actually knew what constituted "perfect" one isn't going to get there unless one actually tries to and then continues to practice that technique. Your post seemed to indicate that attempting to change could make one worse, which makes no sense. If there is a better way, then it seems it would behoove the serious athlete to attempt to acquire those skills.

The only question, which happened to be the question that started this thread, is: What is the best way to pedal a bike? While each of us may argue for one technique or another (and some here think technique makes no difference at all) the fact remains that none of us has much scientific support for our view.

 

[FrankDay]

Huh? You quote a study by someone (i.e., Scheur) with ever right to call themselves an exercise physiologist, then say that none of the work has been done by exercise physiologists??

Just what gives someone "every right" to call themselves an exercise physiologist? What is Scheur's degree in? What department does he work in? Who funds his work? How does he refer to himself, physiologist, exercise physiologist, or something else? Is the main thrust of his work to improve exercise outcome or something else? Can someone who has a degree in exercise physiology but never published a paper call themselves an exercise physiologist?

The point of my remark was just as you have said that I couldn't be a scientist because I was a physician that Fergie has come here and said that it is not possible for anyone not trained in or working in the field of exercise physiology to understand this stuff as well as those who fit that description. It is a form of academic bullying to denigrate arguments based upon the background of the person (or the journal the paper is published in) instead of what the argument is (or what the paper says). It makes no difference to me (and it shouldn't to you or anyone elese) as to whether Scheur can or does call himself an exercise physiologist or not as to how the paper with his name on it should be interpreted.

 

[CoachFergie]

The point of my remark was just as you have said that I couldn't be a scientist because I was a physician that Fergie has come here and said that it is not possible for anyone not trained in or working in the field of exercise physiology to understand this stuff as well as those who fit that description. It is a form of academic bullying to denigrate arguments based upon the background of the person (or the journal the paper is published in) instead of what the argument is (or what the paper says). It makes no difference to me (and it shouldn't to you or anyone elese) as to whether Scheur can or does call himself an exercise physiologist or not as to how the paper with his name on it should be interpreted.

Ummmm Frank, I requested evidence for your claims and your response was that us plebs on here wouldn't understand without training as a physician so what is that about academic bullying?

Then when pushed to provide some actual evidence the best you can do is something you clearly got from a Google search.

 

[FrankDay]

Ummmm Frank, I requested evidence for your claims and your response was that us plebs on here wouldn't understand without training as a physician so what is that about academic bullying?

Where did I ever say that? Here is what I wrote: "If I had contempt for most of the people here I wouldn't even attempt to explain. However, if anyone does not understand my explanation then either I didn't do a very good job or the listener doesn't have the background or capability to understand this technical issue (perhaps there is some of both)." Since you are seemingly unable to understand what I wrote and the references I gave you seem to think everyone is unable to understand. My best guess is that is not the case since you are the only one raising these issues.

It is not academic bullying to have a superior position based upon the evidence. When you (or someone else) presents some evidence that counters what I have presented then you can observe how I react to see if I am an "academic bully". Standing up to academic bullies does not make one an academic bully.

 

[coapman]

Remember that because we have ridden bikes for so long without cleats, the actual neurological habit of pedaling will want to revert to the 'old' way of pedaling.

How does pedaling with cleats differ from the 'old' way of pedaling without cleats ?

 

[FrankDay]

How does pedaling with cleats differ from the 'old' way of pedaling without cleats ?

As you well know, the fact that a rider simply has cleats does not, in and of itself, change how they pedal from how they learned using platform pedals. However, having cleats (or toe clips) allows one to change how they pedal to pretty much anything they want, as long as they put in enough effort into making the change, because with cleats it doesn't matter what the rider does, he or she is not going to become disconnected from the pedal so essentially any "technique" becomes possible.

 

[coapman]

As you well know, the fact that a rider simply has cleats does not, in and of itself, change how they pedal from how they learned using platform pedals. However, having cleats (or toe clips) allows one to change how they pedal to pretty much anything they want, as long as they put in enough effort into making the change, because with cleats it doesn't matter what the rider does, he or she is not going to become disconnected from the pedal so essentially any "technique" becomes possible.

I was hoping he would have answered that question, because if the basic natural pedaling style has not changed since the introduction of cleats what style could a rider revert to.

 

[oldborn]

It pertains to the post right above mine.

And it's a quote from someone else, Mark Rippetoe. I believe the intention of the statement that by trying to obtain "perfection" we overlook "good". And most of us haven't got to good yet (whatever that may be).

A little bit off topic.
Mate i just figure it out your name, accidentally reading cat thread, it is disease wright? We call it "trakavica"
I allways thought it has something to do with tapes.

 

[FrankDay]

I was hoping he would have answered that question, because if the basic natural pedaling style has not changed since the introduction of cleats what style could a rider revert to.

Compared to something like walking, I don't know that there is a "basic natural" pedaling style. Pedaling is not something that is ingrained in our (nor any other predecessor species) DNA as humans didn't evolve with bicycles as part of the natural environment where becoming good at it enhanced survival. Therefore, pedaling is always a learned behavior and the style that is learned and becomes ingrained will depend upon that learning environment. If we all learned to pedal with our feet attached to the pedals I suspect what we all consider the "natural" style would be considerably different than what we see now. Or, if we all learned to pedal in space, where gravity is not part of the equation, I suspect we would have an even different "natural" style. Or, if we learned in space attached to pedals and even different style. What we learn depends upon what and how we are taught.

 

[coapman]

Compared to something like walking, I don't know that there is a "basic natural" pedaling style. Pedaling is not something that is ingrained in our (nor any other predecessor species) DNA as humans didn't evolve with bicycles as part of the natural environment where becoming good at it enhanced survival. Therefore, pedaling is always a learned behavior and the style that is learned and becomes ingrained will depend upon that learning environment. If we all learned to pedal with our feet attached to the pedals I suspect what we all consider the "natural" style would be considerably different than what we see now. Or, if we all learned to pedal in space, where gravity is not part of the equation, I suspect we would have an even different "natural" style. Or, if we learned in space attached to pedals and even different style. What we learn depends upon what and how we are taught.

There certainly is a basic natural pedaling style and it is used by all cyclists whether commuting or racing. In this basic technique almost all positive crank torque is applied vertically downwards, with two 'dead spot' areas during each revolution of the chainwheel and because of tangential effect, peak torque will always occur around the 3 o'c mark. It is only by altering this situation as Anquetil did, that you can claim to have created a new technique and it is only by much biomechanical evaluation and experiment that this can be achieved. The fact is, pedaling experts failed to take full advantage of what cleats had to offer.

 

[FrankDay]

There certainly is a basic natural pedaling style and it is used by all cyclists whether commuting or racing. In this basic technique almost all positive crank torque is applied vertically downwards, with two 'dead spot' areas during each revolution of the chainwheel and because of tangential effect, peak torque will always occur around the 3 o'c mark. It is only by altering this situation as Anquetil did, that you can claim to have created a new technique and it is only by much biomechanical evaluation and experiment that this can be achieved. The fact is, pedaling experts failed to take full advantage of what cleats had to offer.

While I agree with you that cyclists have ignored the potential of what cleats have to offer, seemingly expecting the changes to occur simply because they become attached to the pedals. Of course, pretty much every study out there shows that such changes do not occur.

And, as I stated earlier, I don't believe there is a basic natural pedaling style. First, we must define what we mean when we discuss pedaling style. Are we talking about forces on the pedals or what the muscles are doing because these will look completely different depending upon the effects of gravity. A recumbent rider with the exact same muscle coordination as an upright rider will have completely different pedal forces because of gravity.

Then, we have to look at the environment in which the rider learned how to pedal. I suspect a rider who has only ridden a recumbent will pedal somewhat differently than one who has only ridden an upright bike. And, if one learns on platform pedals, what one can do is severely limited by the equipment so what is "natural" has been predetermined by the equipment one learned on.

It is not a simple question nor is there a simple answer as to what is the "correct way" (presumably meaning the most efficient or most powerful way) to pedal.

 

[coapman]

While I agree with you that cyclists have ignored the potential of what cleats have to offer, seemingly expecting the changes to occur simply because they become attached to the pedals. Of course, pretty much every study out there shows that such changes do not occur.

And, as I stated earlier, I don't believe there is a basic natural pedaling style. First, we must define what we mean when we discuss pedaling style. Are we talking about forces on the pedals or what the muscles are doing because these will look completely different depending upon the effects of gravity. A recumbent rider with the exact same muscle coordination as an upright rider will have completely different pedal forces because of gravity.

Then, we have to look at the environment in which the rider learned how to pedal. I suspect a rider who has only ridden a recumbent will pedal somewhat differently than one who has only ridden an upright bike. And, if one learns on platform pedals, what one can do is severely limited by the equipment so what is "natural" has been predetermined by the equipment one learned on.

It is not a simple question nor is there a simple answer as to what is the "correct way" (presumably meaning the most efficient or most powerful way) to pedal.

Forget about recumbents we are discussing cycling not recumbent riding. If there is not a basic natural or instinctive pedaling style, why do all non competitive bike riders pedal in exactly the same way, doing nothing more than pressing down on each pedal as it passes through 1 o'c. Maybe pedaling style should mean how the pedaling looks to an observer (smooth etc.) and technique mean how and where the muscles are generating and applying the force. I believe asking is there a correct way to pedal is like asking is there a correct way to swim because as I see it, there are different correct ways of doing both of these sports. In cycling the correct ways would be the most effective ways to generate and apply the force in different situations, eg. sprinting needs instant maximal torque, time trials need sustainable high torque while a more relaxed technique is sufficient for sheltered group riding. When you learn how to apply maximal torque to the cranks as they pass through 12 and 1 o'c instead of the minimal torque of a circular or PC rider, you will have a better understanding of all this pedaling confusion.

 

[FrankDay]

Forget about recumbents we are discussing cycling not recumbent riding. If there is not a basic natural or instinctive pedaling style, why do all non competitive bike riders pedal in exactly the same way, doing nothing more than pressing down on each pedal as it passes through 1 o'c. Maybe pedaling style should mean how the pedaling looks to an observer (smooth etc.) and technique mean how and where the muscles are generating and applying the force. I believe asking is there a correct way to pedal is like asking is there a correct way to swim because as I see it, there are different correct ways of doing both of these sports. In cycling the correct ways would be the most effective ways to generate and apply the force in different situations, eg. sprinting needs instant maximal torque, time trials need sustainable high torque while a more relaxed technique is sufficient for sheltered group riding. When you learn how to apply maximal torque to the cranks as they pass through 12 and 1 o'c instead of the minimal torque of a circular or PC rider, you will have a better understanding of all this pedaling confusion.

I don't know why we can't talk about recumbent riding. Pedaling is pedaling.

Anyhow, it seems to me that how we pedal depends an awful lot on the environment in which we are pedaling. Recumbent bikes is simply one example. I am finding that as I experiment with short cranks it seems that short cranks are changing the way I pedal. So, IMHO, not only is how we pedal based upon how we learned and have trained ourselves but the environment (recumbent, seat height, crank length, etc) also changes things. Of course, I cannot prove this as we have no easy way of measuring pedaling technique in people, at least yet but we can hope that these are coming soon.

 

[coapman]

I don't know why we can't talk about recumbent riding. Pedaling is pedaling.

Anyhow, it seems to me that how we pedal depends an awful lot on the environment in which we are pedaling. Recumbent bikes is simply one example. I am finding that as I experiment with short cranks it seems that short cranks are changing the way I pedal. So, IMHO, not only is how we pedal based upon how we learned and have trained ourselves but the environment (recumbent, seat height, crank length, etc) also changes things. Of course, I cannot prove this as we have no easy way of measuring pedaling technique in people, at least yet but we can hope that these are coming soon.

We can talk about bent pedaling but for what purpose, such equipment is not permitted under UCI rules in road races, time trials or track events. I have never pedaled on a recumbent but I believe it would be no different from the mashing method of pedaling or using the leg press machine in a gym. One thing I am certain of is that it would be impossible to use linear pedaling from that low seated position. What effect do Powercranks have on recumbent pedaling, positive or negative. Why like everyone else do you believe one technique is sufficient for competitive cycling, this means all riders are satisfied with the way they have always pedaled. Now that we have some excellent force vector PM's available, has anyone considered asking Merckx and Hinault to reproduce the technique they used throughout their racing years for graph analysis purposes. How are shorter cranks changing the way you pedal? Changing to shorter cranks is another example where a switch to linear pedaling can be advantageous, without changing cadence it's possible to apply the same power to the chainwheel with the shorter cranks while decreasing maximal force applied to the pedals instead of increasing it, as is the case with natural pedaling.

 

[FrankDay]

What effect do Powercranks have on recumbent pedaling, positive or negative.

Not sure. All I can say for sure is we would eventually eliminate any negative forces that might be in the stroke, wherever they might be.

Why like everyone else do you believe one technique is sufficient for competitive cycling, this means all riders are satisfied with the way they have always pedaled.

Don't believe I have ever said that?

Now that we have some excellent force vector PM's available, has anyone considered asking Merckx and Hinault to reproduce the technique they used throughout their racing years for graph analysis purposes.

Force vector PM's are available now? Where? Are you ever going to show us what you are doing when using the linear technique?

How are shorter cranks changing the way you pedal?

When riding hard I am pushing much harder and I am pulling up much harder, not sure what I am doing at the top and the bottom but I feel my foot "sloshing" around in my shoe even though it is snugged down pretty well. Plus, I am at a much higher cadence than I used to ride. My guess is pedal forces are much higher overall around the entire circle and I suspect the directions have changed some also.

 

[coapman]

It is not a simple question nor is there a simple answer as to what is the "correct way" (presumably meaning the most efficient or most powerful way) to pedal.

What is your opinion on Steve Hogg's articles on pedaling techniques.

 

[mickkk]

Many years ago, when speed counted with me, I studied this in depth. I think the ratio was 80% downstroke, 20% upstroke. As an old man I forget the specifics but I can go 40kph on flat pedals and 60kph with clipless, so I guess a lot of it is individual.

I have to laugh at the terry triatheltes who buy bikes on looks not fit. Stand on Beach Road and look at the styles, its a hoot.

I remember one bloke one time who lost his shoes, did 120k on thongs as self punishment.

Sloshy shoes = bad fitting shoes, try gaffer tape, 2 pairs of socks etc. The modern shoes, kevlar, Nylon, Carbon, they dont shrink to fit your foot, they expand when wet and dont shrink back. Leather does. Look back in time, simple works best. Have a look at old shoes and metal toe clips, they are just as good as the modern stuff when well fitted.

I used to aim at finishing hills faster than when I started, big pulls = big power, when you pull correctly, your tyres make an angry noise, you know it when you hear it.

 

[Captain Serious]

*pedals stuff*.

Ha! The self-appointed Beach Road Bully here. Just kidding.

I agree with what you've said, especially about the new shoes stretching (is that what you said? ) and the toe-clips & straps stuff. My first pair of lorica (non leather) shoes (Sidi Genius 5s), that I bought for my first clipless pedals stretched like crazy!! In retrospect, I obviously should've bought one size down (I was probably naive about how much the shoes would stretch, and how much new shoes and straps would replace the load of my clips and straps), but I started wearing them with one pair of thin socks and one insole; I was using 2 pairs of socks within a fortnight, and by the time I stopped using them, no joke, I had 3 insoles and 3 pairs of thick socks!! I gather using them in the wet during 'demanding' (on the shoes) group smashfests contributed partly to them stretching.

So (I'm digressing somewhat), the next pair of shoes I bought (Sidi Genius 5.5s) were a size down, and they also stretched a lot, but I was ready for it. When I first got them, they were quite tight without any insoles or socks, especially around the toes! I wore them in by walking around the house a bit before riding with them, and now, a few years down the road, I now wear them with 2 thin Sidi insoles and two pairs of socks. These shoes seem to have stopped stretching! Maybe they've reached their limit?

Ya know, I still sometimes miss my toe-clips and straps, especially during races (obviously) and smashfests. I started on the track before I even knew what a criterium was (seriously! I didn't even know that clubs held them), so I was accustomed to good, tight straps and properly-fitted clips from day one. On the track, especially during sprints, riders will go nowhere fast without their feet held firmly on the pedals.

The point of my post is that, even though I'm in the (apparently small) camp that thinks that pedalling techinique matters little [and the BS about pedalling in circles, "scraping the mud", and/or trying to gain force through 11 and 1 o'clock of the circle (which, in my opinion, is probably the silliest one) is WAY over-thinking the issue, and just gives new riders the totally wrong focus, when they should be finding out how to generate 'real' power by pounding the absolute crap out of the pedals through the downstroke] I'm one of the few riders I know who rides with firmly-worn shoes. The pulling up I do during seated, constant speed, I consider to be nothing more than a 'tug', yet al lot of the other people I know who talk about pedalling in circles, etc, wear what I consider to be 'sloshy' shoes (as you say), and I never see them tightening their straps.

To highlight my view, one thing that I can't BELIEVE is that I seem to be the only person in town who wears out the velcro on their shoes!! Does no one ever pull up or grind hard enough to wear out the velcro? I don't get it! I've even started buying 'industrial strength' velcro from a hardware store, which I replace every few months.

And back to stretching shoes, it also surprises me how many people actually deny that Sidis stretch. If anyone looks up this topic on Bike Forums, they can see many people denying that they stretch. This adds to my theory that people don't 'rip' the pedals hard enough, often enough, even though they bang on about pedalling in circles and "scraping the mud".

eh...I've lost my train of thought, and I wanna go for a ride