Crashes, what can be done?

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F1 is a terrible example. There are still plenty of crashes, but with lesser injuries because of how the car is build nowadays. You can't make a bike more crashproof.
There are far fewer crashes in F1 than it used to be for many reasons.

First of all, modern F1 tracks have plenty of tarmac run-offs in places, where 20 or 30 years ago there would be a wall, gravel or grass. It makes it so that small (or sometimes even not that small) mistakes end up with a broken car much less frequently.

Also there are improvements in technology. Engines are developed for more drivability, cars have more downforce. It all makes cars relatively easier to control. Also the cars are almost 1/3 heavier than they used to be, which means they're not as nimble and "nervous" to drive as in the past.

And the third factor is that the level of driving has improved. Drivers have now advanced simulators to practice, advanced telemetry that shows and lets them correct every mistake. They also take the physical preparation much more seriously than in the past and their training reigimes are really intense. Also the level of young driver categories has been increasing so they arrive at F1 better at driving racing cars already.

The pressure on drivers to drive "clean" is also bigger than in the past. Safety is taken much more seriously in modern F1 and drivers just know they can't afford to do some things other drivers have tried some 30 or 40 years ago because the backlash would be much stronger nowadays.

Of course the similarities between F1 and cyclings are limited, just like between any two different sports.
 
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Samu is right though, the 24h du Mans is a much better comparison point, because the course is far more crowded with a much larger discrepancy between fastest and slowest cars and varying quality of driver (is the guy in the LMP2 Jumbo car the ex-GP2 and DTM pilot with a decade's top level experience? Or the mid-40s gentleman driver who owns the car? These are things that affect how you react when you come to pass that car at 190mph, or when they appear to pass you in your rear view mirror, depending on which class you're driving in).

The other thing with the F1 comparison is, they drive on permanent circuits specifically designed for them. Apart from Monaco there are no 'true' street circuits anymore, they're all smoothed off like a billiard table, some of them even ignore where the actual roads go and are essentially just normal race tracks but in an urban setting, so things like Sochi, Valencia and Yas Marina are street circuits in name only. Baku and Marina Bay are hybrids (like La Sarthe is), and Montreal and Albert Park are parkland circuits. However, the thing that separates this out from cycling is, cycling uses unaltered public roads. Even Monaco sees public roads affected. A lot of that street furniture that is so hazardous for a pro péloton to come bounding through... for 364 days a year, that's essential for the safety of regular road users. It's a lot easier to improve the safety at an F1 circuit because you have to have an FIA Grade 1 Licence to host an F1 GP. If your circuit doesn't meet the safety criteria, then fine, we'll just withdraw that licence and you can make do with lower series like GTs, touring cars and the like. If that means building a new area of run-off, then so be it. It's all land that the circuits themselves own and can work with. And if it's successful, then great, you can keep races coming back to recoup the cost of those works. Not so with cycling, where it's the town or region which pays, not the circuit owner, because nobody 'owns' the point-to-point course. You pay to have the race come in, and then they have to work out how to make a safe finish in the town or city that is planned as host. Their recompense is through television exposure, tourist revenue and local businesses gaining from the influx of fans and the hotels, cafes and restaurants filling - there's no ticketed income like there is at motorsport where they can jack the price up a bit to cover their costs. You can't tell the town to construct a new run-off area or demolish a building in order to widen out a corner from being unsafe for a one-off event that they're already paying for. The most you can get a town to do is remove some signage temporarily and flatten out traffic islands.

The other thing is that, in F1, increased parity in the field of competition is a good thing for safety. It means nobody is dangerously slower than anybody else. In cycling, it's almost the reverse. Having a péloton of people who are all of an elite level means almost nobody dropped in a flat stage and suddenly you need a road which can handle 150 riders all going high speed in unison as the sprint is set up. The 2012 Giro's Danish start is a good example - they used roads, some of which had been used without trouble in the Danmark Rundt, but it was almost carnage with the Giro's péloton. Why? Well, for a start there's over 50% more riders in the Giro. Then you take into account 8 (or back then 9) riders per team as opposed to 6 or 7. Then you factor in that there's a greater proportion of high level riders there so it's harder to thin the pack out so more people are fighting to be at the front. Then you factor in that it's the first few days of a GT so the péloton tends to be nervous anyway, before the GC status quo has been settled. Then add onto that that the péloton in the Danmark Rundt will largely consist of teams who know what racing in Denmark is all about, whereas in the Giro we had some teams like Euskaltel and the Italian wildcard teams riding to protect waifish climbers who are completely out of their depth in northern classics-style racing. And finally, because of the nature of the Danmark Rundt, bonus seconds and being up at the front in the flat stages means that often the people contesting the sprints and the GC men are one and the same, whereas in the Giro you have a full sprinting field AND a full GC field all needing to fight for places at the front.
 
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The 2012 Giro's Danish start is a good example - they used roads, some of which had been used without trouble in the Danmark Rundt, but it was almost carnage with the Giro's péloton. Why? Well, for a start there's over 50% more riders in the Giro. Then you take into account 8 (or back then 9) riders per team as opposed to 6 or 7. Then you factor in that there's a greater proportion of high level riders there so it's harder to thin the pack out so more people are fighting to be at the front. Then you factor in that it's the first few days of a GT so the péloton tends to be nervous anyway, before the GC status quo has been settled. Then add onto that that the péloton in the Danmark Rundt will largely consist of teams who know what racing in Denmark is all about, whereas in the Giro we had some teams like Euskaltel and the Italian wildcard teams riding to protect waifish climbers who are completely out of their depth in northern classics-style racing. And finally, because of the nature of the Danmark Rundt, bonus seconds and being up at the front in the flat stages means that often the people contesting the sprints and the GC men are one and the same, whereas in the Giro you have a full sprinting field AND a full GC field all needing to fight for places at the front.

All of this is pretty much the reason why - despite many of us wanting them to - they're not going to Vejle at the Tour next year. Roads are simply too narrow for a full TdF peloton, while the landscape, while tough by ToD standards, is simply too easy to properly split up the peloton.
 
If crashes usually happens during the first stages in a GT then maybe swith the order of stages and coock the whole peleton on serious climbs until GC is more settled.

Or don't, because while it's never said out loud I think people maybe likes the surprise eliminations early crashes adds to a race.

Why not start punish the crashers. Three strikes and you're out lol. Especially if you cause someone else to crash.

Serious, no, but maybe a little. Maybe.
 
Imagine GC guys would crash yesterday on stage 16 in a bunch sprint related crash at the end of the stage and we would not get to live stage 17 as it was.

That would have been unfortunate, yes, but - as long as nobody was actually seriously hurt, not a total disaster.
Don't forget that stage 16 actually did see a pretty serious crash - though too early to be bunch sprint related - that saw three guys abbandon. One of them, Ciccone, was actually riding GC. Another, Molard, got a collapsed lung! (And then he rode for another 100 Ks, because pro-cyclists are crazy!), but even that I'm not classifying as a serious injury, because on the photo FDJ posted, he looked fine... for a guy with a collapsed lung...

Sometimes, I think you're putting way too much focus on the GC guys.
 
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Also with less hectic finals for the GC guys, perhaps we wouldn't have been able to get the result and action yesterday that we did, because the GC riders wouldn't have been as tired at this point in the race, meaning Bernal and Roglič wouldn't have been able to get/stay away from 60 km out.
 
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That would have been unfortunate, yes, but - as long as nobody was actually seriously hurt, not a total disaster.
Don't forget that stage 16 actually did see a pretty serious crash - though too early to be bunch sprint related - that saw three guys abbandon. One of them, Ciccone, was actually riding GC. Another, Molard, got a collapsed lung! (And then he rode for another 100 Ks, because pro-cyclists are crazy!), but even that I'm not classifying as a serious injury, because on the photo FDJ posted, he looked fine... for a guy with a collapsed lung...

Sometimes, I think you're putting way too much focus on the GC guys.

He's not interested in "the GC guys", he's interested in Roglic. And some other Slovenians, if they happen to be around. Also in being right.
 
That would have been unfortunate, yes, but - as long as nobody was actually seriously hurt, not a total disaster.

Mas said he was still affected from the crash on stage 17. A crash is a crash and will likely have some effect. A few percent is enough to be a deal breaker.

@Samu Cuenca

Nah we would still get stage 17 if the end of stage 16 would be a bit safer for GC favourites.


@BlueRoads

And what difference would it make if that would be true? But nice contribution to this debate indeed. Thank you for that.
 
Mas said he was still affected from the crash on stage 17. A crash is a crash and will likely have some effect. A few percent is enough to be a deal breaker.

Is he in the hospital? No. That's what I'm talking about; crashes that send people to the hospital.
On the flip-side, if there had been a serious crash in that finale - and it was sketchy - and someone had been seriously hurt - then it would have been equally terrible if the guy who'd been hurt had been Roglic, or if it had been Ander Okamika.
 
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@RedheadDane

Ciccone DNF and he merely crashed.

As for your general opinion and on how you perceive safety in pro cycling. That is if the safety incident does not involve a hospital it is not a safety related incident worth worrying about. I don't share that opinion at all. But feel free to have such standards. I just don't feel they should be taken seriously. It's like saying somebody had a car accident but as it didn't involve hospital it was basically not a car accident and no need to worry about such accidents. That is to try to prevent them.

@Netserk

Sorry but that is just stupid comment. Likely you are aware of that. Hence i won't insult our intelligence further.

@all

See you next time when GC guys crash at the end of a bunch sprint stage.
 
@RedheadDane

Ciccone DNF and he merely crashed.

As for your general opinion and on how you perceive safety in pro cycling. That is if the safety incident does not involve a hospital it is not a safety related incident worth worrying about. I don't share that opinion at all. But feel free to have such standards. I just don't feel they should be taken seriously. It's like saying somebody had a car accident but as it didn't involve hospital it was basically not a car accident and no need to worry about such accidents. That is to try to prevent them.

@Netserk

Sorry but that is just stupid comment. Likely you are aware of that. Hence i won't insult our intelligence further.

@all

See you next time when GC guys crash at the end of a bunch sprint stage.

Getting through sprint stages safely is also the responsibility of a GC rider. If someone else makes you crash - very bad, we all would like to avoid that, but it can happen anytime during a flat stage, often it doesn't happen during the hectic final, but during the boring parts of stages. Positioning, handling skills, constant focus - that belongs to the skills of a GC rider. If you want to avoid that at all you will not have a complete GT rider. It's road cycling, these things happen in a peloton, a bunch. They are normal in this sport. The focus really has to be on preventing, as good as possible, serious crashes that endanger people's lives or their long-term health and on avoiding crashes that can be foreseen - for instance finals where you have a 90% chance that a few guys crash - they are not necessary, they are usually just in there for money reasons, but if you choose another route it doesn't take anything away from the sportive side, whereas if you just neutralize more and more of a stage that changes the sport significantly.
 
@BlueRoads

Now yes that is much more constructive approach. If that is your opinion i am OK with it. As for you believing there are other areas where safety could improve in the peloton. I have no reason to claim otherwise. It should be rather obvious that is the case. That is on why the claims on how nothing can be done are rather strange IMHO.

But still in my opinion the end of bunch sprint stages should be reserved for sprinters and not for GC lottery. The skills you are talking about. That a genuine GC contender should posses. That can very well be demonstrated elsewhere. Hence i will continue to have an eye on this area until the mentioned situation improves. As when it will improve then i would end up talking about lighting striking the peloton anyway. And no point in doing that.
 
@Libertine Seguros

Nobody is saying otherwise. Some people are saying the only way that can be done is at the end of the bunch sprint stages. I just don't buy that. Like not at all. There GC guys should move away and give space to sprinters to do their job. GC guys had their chance before that and now it's time to move along and more importantly away if nothing came of it. They are not sprint specialists and should not be made to prove that, by hitting the floor.
 
@Libertine Seguros

Nobody is saying otherwise. Some people are saying the only way that can be done is at the end of the bunch sprint stages. I just don't buy that. Like not at all. There GC guys should move away and give space to sprinters to do their job. GC guys had their chance before that and now it's time to move along and more importantly away if nothing came of it. They are not sprint specialists and should not be made to prove that, by hitting the floor.
And what if a split develops late on or at the line? By extending the time gap needed between riders from 1 second to 3 they're already taking action to mean the GC guys don't need to be up front in the run-in. But Egan Bernal gained a few seconds a few days ago by being more attentive than his rivals at the finish and gaining time on them, and he ought to be rewarded for that, no?
 
They will always measure stage times at some point. GC guys can hence still make a difference there. Due to crosswinds, breakaway, better positioning ... After that point they should move along and let the stage to sprinters. Unless they are in position to take the stage win and then by all means go for it. It's not like it is illegal.

Just don't be there in between the big boys playing the lottery and looking silly.
 
This is mainly gonna be flow-of-mind!

Ciccone DNF and he merely crashed.

As for your general opinion and on how you perceive safety in pro cycling. That is if the safety incident does not involve a hospital it is not a safety related incident worth worrying about. I don't share that opinion at all. But feel free to have such standards. I just don't feel they should be taken seriously. It's like saying somebody had a car accident but as it didn't involve hospital it was basically not a car accident and no need to worry about such accidents. That is to try to prevent them.

Yes, and I feel sorry for him, just like I feel sorry for Valverde.
Because you can feel sorry for GC riders - or any riders - who crash out, or even just - in the case of GC riders - lose time in the GC, but also recognise that there are more important concerns in cycling than coming up with some artificial way to prevent GC riders from getting caught up in crashes on sprint stages.
Of course it's still a crash even nobody ends up in the hospital, but sometimes crashes just happen. Whether it's a touch-of-wheels in the peloton, or a rider overcooking it on a - otherwise perfectly safe - corner, and most of the time riders just pick themselves up and continue, maybe they'll have lost a bit of skin, maybe they'll lose a bit of time, but at the end of the day; not a big deal.
Seriously, though, I just don't understand why you're so concerned about GC riders losing time. In your "What If" scenario for stage 16, your biggest concern seemed to be "What if a GC rider had lost time? :eek:" But again; wouldn't it have been a bigger worry if someone - major rider, or not - had been seriously hurt?
This thread was start, I suspect, partly because of two young guys almost losing their lives within 14 days of each other, and yes; Evenepoel might never have lost consciousness, but not much should have been different before it could have gone horribly wrong, landing on a rock rather than a pheasant... And let's not forget the car - a non-race-related car! - that took out Schachmann during Lombardia last year, because that is a serious incident, even if he got up again and finished; something like that simply should not happen!
 
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That would have been unfortunate, yes, but - as long as nobody was actually seriously hurt, not a total disaster.
Don't forget that stage 16 actually did see a pretty serious crash - though too early to be bunch sprint related - that saw three guys abbandon. One of them, Ciccone, was actually riding GC. Another, Molard, got a collapsed lung! (And then he rode for another 100 Ks, because pro-cyclists are crazy!), but even that I'm not classifying as a serious injury, because on the photo FDJ posted, he looked fine... for a guy with a collapsed lung...

Sometimes, I think you're putting way too much focus on the GC guys.

Along these lines, I think a fairly crucial distinction is being missed. We shouldn't be wanting to reduce crashes so that we maintain a competitive GC, we should be wanting it in order to best protect overall rider welfare.

I don't think there should be any effort put into stopping a crash that causes no serious injury, but changes the GC standings. We could have had a crash with 10km to go on Stage 16 that meant that Roglic, Mas, Superman, Haig and Bernal all lost 10 minutes in GC, but as long as they are able to get up and ride away, we should see it as completely fine and acceptable. As it stands this season in Grand Tour sprint finishes the only injuries that have resulted for GC candidates are two fractured collarbones for Haig and Landa. While frustrating, I don't see how this can be seen as an enormous safety or welfare risk that requires a fundamental change in how the race is run in order to eliminate. Especially as both crashes could potentially have been mitigated through designing the course to avoid narrow, wet and downhill corners with adverse camber in the run in for Haig, and to avoid significant road furniture for Landa.

To use the Formula One analogy again, you still see F1 drivers crash (whether this be clipping a wall, going off the track into a a gravel section or something more serious), it's just that these incidents have been reduced and the likelihood of them resulting in serious injury or worse is significantly reduced. Take for instance the crash of Romain Grosjean in Bahrain last year - he literally walked away from it straight away with minor burns and injuries when before it likely would have killed him. But it still meant that he wasn't able to compete in the race any further and this disadvantaged him in the championship standings clearly (even if he wasn't a high quality or competitive driver). The point of the safety measures were not to eliminate the risk of crashing altogether, but to reduce the damage done by their consequences and to ensure the driver does not suffer life changing injuries or worse.
 
And what if a split develops late on or at the line? By extending the time gap needed between riders from 1 second to 3 they're already taking action to mean the GC guys don't need to be up front in the run-in. But Egan Bernal gained a few seconds a few days ago by being more attentive than his rivals at the finish and gaining time on them, and he ought to be rewarded for that, no?

And he ruined the sprint finish because he dropped the wheel
 
We will see next year if they learned anything or not. On bunch sprint stages, where you send the peloton down the narrow roads of some city or a village. For that last couple of kilometres. And you kill GC race with the lottery ... If they do that again then in my opinion they are stupid.

P.S. Pascal Eenkhoorn should be fined for littering. As at least they take this aspect of pro cycling seriously.
 
We will see next year if they learned anything or not. On bunch sprint stages, where you send the peloton down the narrow roads of some city or a village. For that last couple of kilometres. And you kill GC race with the lottery ... If they do that again then in my opinion they are stupid.

P.S. Pascal Eenkhoorn should be fined for littering. As at least they take this aspect of pro cycling seriously.

Plenty of races this year still to come for them to show that they are in fact taking crashes seriously.

And Eenkhoorn didn't litter! He gave a gift - and an experience of a lifetime - to a kid. So glad they stopped DQing riders for beautiful stuff like that.
 
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AFAIK nobody is doing any meaningful about crashes in general. To be methodical about it and to reduce the number of occurences over years. Hence the answer to your question is rather rhetorical one.

As for the things we talked about extensively. Regarding the end of bunch sprint stages. Here i feel that if the same things will still happen in 2022. Then we will just call them stupid. By them i don't mean the riders.
 
They banned the Supertuck to prevent crashes.
They banned the Poland organiserers from using that finale - and I guess downhill sprints like that are banned in general - to prevent crashes.
They're implementing better standards for barriers to make sure the consequences aren't too severe if a crash does happen.
They're getting better at putting padding on stuff by the route, probably because - as you might recall - Lambrecht died because he hit his upper body against a concrete structure.

What they're not doing is creating some artificial way of keeping GC riders off the front during sprint finishes.
 
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