Crashes, what can be done?

[CyclistAbi]

That are your claim not mine. You made that up. That is the crashes at the end of bunch sprint stages are less important or severe compared to other ones.

They are surely not.

 

[EliseeReclus]

That are your claim not mine. You made that up. That is the crashes at the end of bunch sprint stages are less important or severe compared to other ones.

They are surely not.

If they are not causing injuries that are as bad as crashes in other situations, then aren't they literally less severe? And the logical conclusion from this is that they should take less importance when considering safety improvements than severe crashes

 

[Leinster]

Eenkhoorn would never have been fined under any version of the rule; he handed a bottle to a fan, he never threw it on the ground. Schar got DQ’d at the Ronde for throwing his bottle at spectators’ feet.

And tossed/dropped bottles are a safety issue. It literally took Thomas out of the Giro last year.

 

[EliseeReclus]

And tossed/dropped bottles are a safety issue. It literally took Thomas out of the Giro last year.

IIRC, Thomas was taken out by one that fell out of a bottle cage when they went over cobbles in the neutral zone (Although, having some construction rules about bottle cages and retention probably wouldn't be a bad improvement though tbh). I thought the UCI stuff on bottles was more to do with littering than a safety issue per se.

 

[RedheadDane]

That are your claim not mine. You made that up. That is the crashes at the end of bunch sprint stages are less important or severe compared to other ones.

They are surely not.

What did I make up?
And of course bunch sprint crashes can be severe, if riders are injured. However, a crash in which the only consequence is the tiny and insignificant "issue" of GC riders losing time is not a severe crash!

Also, you gotta admit it looks a bit silly to be talking about next season, when this season isn't exactly over.
I definitely hope they're gonna put up some sort of net at the spot where Evenepoel crashed at Lombardia, and be a bit more vigilant with keeping non-race cars off the route.

 

[Leinster]

IIRC, Thomas was taken out by one that fell out of a bottle cage when they went over cobbles in the neutral zone (Although, having some construction rules about bottle cages and retention probably wouldn't be a bad improvement though tbh). I thought the UCI stuff on bottles was more to do with littering than a safety issue per se.

Yeah, just pointing out the contrast of people making fun of the bottle toss rules, while at the same time insisting we fundamentally alter the finish of flat stages to protect gc riders.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@RedheadDane

And why is a crash plus killed GC race less severe then a mere crash?

P.S. I am not saying you are making things out. I am saying you put too much emphasise on one aspect and just disregard the rest. The crash.

 

[RedheadDane]

Who gives a *** about "killed GC"? I'm talking about crashes causing actual injury, even death!

And you really shouldn't talk too loudly about putting too much emphasis on one aspect. What with you constantly harping on about GC riders...

 

[CyclistAbi]

Let me put it this way. If the crashes i am talking about wouldn't cause injuries then the GC race would not be killed.

 

[Bonimenier]

Who gives a *** about "killed GC"? I'm talking about crashes causing actual injury, even death!

And you really shouldn't talk too loudly about putting too much emphasis on one aspect. What with you constantly harping on about GC riders...

"GC riders"

 

[CyclistAbi]

Yeah, just pointing out the contrast of people making fun of the bottle toss rules, while at the same time insisting we fundamentally alter the finish of flat stages to protect gc riders.

As it should be.

P.S. Now we take bottle toss rules seriously and are crashing GC riders in sprinters stampede.

 

[RedheadDane]

Let me put it this way. If the crashes i am talking about wouldn't cause injuries then the GC race would not be killed.

Let me put it this way:

Crash that causes a GC rider to lose time, but no serious injury = Good!
Crash that causes serious injury - whether GC rider, top-sprinter, or basically unknown guy - but no time-loss for (other) GC riders = Bad!
Of course; crash that causes neither = Also good!

And that's not even taking into account the races with no GC; you know... the one-day races!

However, and I think I might have mentioned this before, sometimes it's not so much the outcome that should be looked into but the cause. Sometimes - and it's horrible to say - even crashes with the worst possible outcome could not have been prevented, while on the flip-side sometimes stuff happens that - through some crazy luck - does not cause major injury, but just shouldn't have happened; that car hitting Schachmann in Lombardia last year springs to mind.

Why did you even ressurrect this thread to start talking about "next year" when this year's season isn't exactly over yet?

But anyway; I'll give you a challenge, since this minor issue seems to be oh-so-important to you... why don't you come up with a way to prevent these "GC killing crashes"? But bear in mind that you can't just go "NEUTRALISE EVERYTHING!", as that could prevent GC riders from taking time in unexpected places, and I'm not just talking cross-wind action.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@RedheadDane

Crash = Not good.

As for why i am focused on this specific area. Because here things can improve vastly and it's not a rocket science on how to do that. Once we do this we can move on to other areas. Or better other people can put more emphasise on other areas and work on that. I have no problem with that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

As for in general. Tony Martin ended his career saying big part of the decision came down to the fact zilch was done in regard to improving safety in the past decade. In addition he put emphasis on safety related incidents that happened on TDF 2021.

Tony Martin bows out in style at final World Championships time trial

'No one cares about safety anymore - it's not the racing I love' says German as he retires

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[RedheadDane]

@RedheadDane

Crash = Not good.

As for why i am focused on this specific area. Because here things can improve vastly and it's not a rocket science on how to do that. Once we do this we can move on to other areas. Or better other people can put more emphasise on other areas and work on that. I have no problem with that.

Okay, what should they do, then? How should they prevent GC riders from crashing/getting caught behind crashes on sprint stages without neutralising the finale of every sprint stage? Because that appears to be your "solution".

And what the hell is T. Martin talking about? Riders do care about safety! However, I can understand if it sometimes feels like an uphill battle, dealing with UCI and other shareholders.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Okay, what should they do, then? How should they prevent GC riders from crashing/getting caught behind crashes on sprint stages without neutralising the finale of every sprint stage? Because that appears to be your "solution".

I am OK with whatever solution implemented that takes the initiative away for GC riders to be there. If all parties involved sit down and discuss it. Then i am sure that an appropriate solution will emerge soonish. If they won't do that and will continue to claim nothing can be done. And we will continue to watch the same outcome. Then obviously at some point somebody will be made accountable. Lets say Tour 2022 ends up being the same safety fiasco as Tour 2021 was. There is no way they are surviving that without some consequences. At minimum reputation damaged.

And what the hell is T. Martin talking about? Riders do care about safety! However, I can understand if it sometimes feels like an uphill battle, dealing with UCI and other shareholders.

When panzerwagen says zilch was done in the past decade then you just somehow have to accept that.

 

[RedheadDane]

I am OK with whatever solution implemented that takes the initiative away for GC riders to be there.

Even if the GC riders weren't there, there would still be crashes. And how do you decide who the GC riders are anyway? Would Wout Van Aert be allowed to be near the front? He sometimes does both...
But can you give me just one example of a serious crash caused by GC riders being near the front during sprint stages? And by "serious" I don't mean "someone lost a bit of time", I mean serious injury, or even death.

When panzerwagen says zilch was done in the past decade then you just somehow have to accept that.

Not when it isn't true...

 

[CyclistAbi]

Even if the GC riders weren't there, there would still be crashes.

Likely. But after it's down to specialists. Specialists that tend to know what they are doing and do train for it. Rules like penalty for endangerment, due to deviating from the line, that should help too. And lets not forget this last couple of km's are usually in some town or village. As the district invested money in the race and for sure they want the spectacle in the narrowest part. It's a sprint but hey lets bring the whole bunch!

And how do you decide who the GC riders are anyway? Would Wout Van Aert be allowed to be near the front? He sometimes does both...

Sure, why not. It's not like it would be illegal. If you have interest. Like lets say to win a stage. Go for it. As GC battle would already be decided by then, hence he could take the advantage from potential crosswinds situation too.

But can you give me just one example of a serious crash caused by GC riders being near the front during sprint stages? And by "serious" I don't mean "someone lost a bit of time", I mean serious injury, or even death.

Just read what Tony said. Somewhere in the lines of if you are doing 50km/h or up on a bike and you crash ... It's serious business. If you don't believe it put on some protective equipment on and try to crash with a bike doing 5km/h. You will get the point after.

P.S. Just don't do it for real as you will get injured.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Not when it isn't true...

It's true. Introduction of helmet is the last thing that likely improved safety a bit. The rest was more or less a joke.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Personally i am going to wait for the next season and will judge after. That is if i will get the impression they actually did something useful in this area or not. Or if instead they went skiing during the winter and nothing got done.

What i know is if they will repeat what they did on TDF 2021. Then the *** will hit the went.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Or if instead they went skiing during the winter and nothing got done.

Are you talking XC-skiing, or just downhill?

 

[CyclistAbi]

Are you talking XC-skiing, or just downhill?

Basically i am talking about no ski jumping this winter at all as they have much work to do. The holiday they took in this area has reached the normal quota already.

Long ago.

 

[Danskebjerge]

I still think too many of you overlook the causal link of less danger, higher speeds.

I do see things that could be changed to make racing a bit more safe - like harder sanctions when sprinters deviate from their line, and less dangerous turns, especially at the end of races (why does the UCI keep accepting the hazardous routes in Croatia?). But most other suggestions - nah, it just makes it easier for the riders, and then they'll just push even more = ride at a higher risk.

 

[RedheadDane]

Just read what Tony said. Somewhere in the lines of if you are doing 50km/h or up on a bike and you crash ... It's serious business. If you don't believe it put on some protective equipment on and try to crash with a bike doing 5km/h. You will get the point after.

Still doesn't change the fact that the vast majority - if not all - serious crashes in recent years happened in all other situations than "GC riders being too close to the front during the finale of sprint stages."
Here are just a few examples:
Evenepoel, Il Lombardia: Crashed on a descent, and since it's a one-day race there was obviously no GC riders involved
Jakobsen, Tour de Pologne: Happened during a sprint, yes. But GC riders were nowhere involved.
Lambrecht, Tour de Pologne: From what I understand, he crashed because he hit a reflector in the road and then - as unfortunate as you can be - hit a concrete structure by the road with his torso.
Broeckx, Tour of Belgium: Crash caused by dangerous driving by race motos.
Demoitie, Gent-Wevelgem: Hit by race moto after a crash. Unsure what caused the initial crash, but definitely no GC riders involved.
Boeckmans, Vuelta a Espana: Crash happened during a calm part of the race, possibly because he was getting something to drink.
Mauricio Soler, Tour de Suisse: Crashed on a descent.
Weylandt, Giro d'Italia: Crashed on a descent.

It's true. Introduction of helmet is the last thing that likely improved safety a bit. The rest was more or less a joke.

You think implementing better barriers is a joke? Of course it would be nice if it was done quicker - during the Women's Elite race at the Worlds Rolf Sørensen and Christina Siggaard was talking about why they were even using those barriers with the potruding feet at all - but the fact is that something is being done.
Or what about the increased focus on education for the people driving the race motos? Of course, shouldn't have taken a death, and another guy almost dying.
Or putting padding on things riders could potentially hit after a crash?

 

[EliseeReclus]

Still doesn't change the fact that the vast majority - if not all - serious crashes in recent years happened in all other situations than "GC riders being too close to the front during the finale of sprint stages."

It may also be worth noting that one of the major things that has caused serious (for this I see it as career threatening) injuries to GC contenders in Grand Tours or preparation races in the last five years has been crashing on Time Trial bikes (Froome, Valverde, and also Van Aert and Lopez to a lesser extent if you add in super domestiques). I know UCI rules on bike design are often spoken about as a joke in the press and some kind of unjustifiable brake on the engineering 'brilliance' of the major bike brands, but this seems to be an obvious area where having rules in place that ensure that bikes handle well enough to stay upright probably has stopped more crashes happening, and also perhaps somewhere where more can be done still.