Crashes, what can be done?

[CyclistAbi]

You don’t have any suggestions to fix it, LS and Redhead Dane are correct.

Right in claiming it would be an easier task to resolve a knee or elbow injuries first? I am not saying that is wrong. It's just that common sense is preventing me to acknowledge that.

But OK if @RedheadDane or @Libertine Seguros can produce some evidence. I can get persuaded. On how a knee or elbow area can be more appealing to apparel manufactures. In compared to the collarbone section.

Lets do that then. Lets compare existing equipment. I am not asking for anybody to produce technical drawings and to resolve this issues for free.

 

[RedheadDane]

But OK if @RedheadDane or @Libertine Seguros can produce some evidence. I can get persuaded. On how a knee or elbow area can be more appealing to apparel manufactures. In compared to the collarbone section.

I have never said anything about apparel protecting knees or elbows! I've said that if anything - other than the heads, which already are - needs to have extra protection, it's the riders' torsos!

 

[CyclistAbi]

I don't know how to solve the political situation in the Middle East, but there are a plethora of options.

But i do wonder. Do you even care about political situation in the Middle East?

 

[CyclistAbi]

I have never said anything about apparel protecting knees or elbows! I've said that if anything - other than the heads, which already are - needs to have extra protection, it's the riders' torsos!

Then what you are basically saying is it really is important? On what the other person really said?

Well i can agree with that.

 

[RedheadDane]

Then what you are basically saying is it really is important?

Injuries to the riders' inner organs! That's something they need to work on preventing as much as possible!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Right in claiming it would be an easier task to resolve a knee or elbow injuries first? I am not saying that is wrong. It's just that common sense is preventing me to acknowledge that.

But OK if @RedheadDane or @Libertine Seguros can produce some evidence. I can get persuaded. On how a knee or elbow area can be more appealing to apparel manufactures. In compared to the collarbone section.

Lets do that then. Lets compare existing equipment. I am not asking for anybody to produce technical drawings and to resolve this issues for free.

Evidence of what? We're not the ones using non-existent statistics to back up a clarion call for change. You've based a lot of your argument on what you perceive the statistics to be, with no evidence beyond emotive arguments, and when confronted with this, simply insist that if those statistics were kept, they would back you up.

 

[RedheadDane]

Evidence of what? We're not the ones using non-existent statistics to back up a clarion call for change. You've based a lot of your argument on what you perceive the statistics to be, with no evidence beyond emotive arguments, and when confronted with this, simply insist that if those statistics were kept, they would back you up.

I don't think it can be denied that there are a lot of riders breaking collarbones. I'm just saying it's maybe not the worst injury out there.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1517457708454137862

View: https://twitter.com/JumboVismaRoad/status/1517457708454137862

 

[F_Cance]

that's super vague. Like they never wrote that he is awake after the surgery, right?

 

[lemon cheese cake]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1517457708454137862

View: https://twitter.com/JumboVismaRoad/status/1517457708454137862

Im confused by the last sentence. Does that mean he's recovering well and in a good enough situation to use normal means like a plane, train or car rather than a special medical charter?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Im confused by the last sentence. Does that mean he's recovering well and in a good enough situation to use normal means like a plane, train or car rather than a special medical charter?

Red Rick posted this in the JV thread:

Vader was apparently woken up from an artificial coma this tuesday. Things are looking good now, his family have good hopes for a full recovery

'Goede hoop op volledig herstel Milan Vader'

Update Optimistische geluiden rond de situatie van Milan Vader. De familie van de wielrenner van Jumbo-Visma laat namelijk aan de PZC weten dat er ondertussen goede hoop is op volledig herstel. Vader kwam twee weken geleden in de vijfde etappe van de Ronde van het Baskenland zwaar ten val en...

www.wielerflits.nl

 

[lemon cheese cake]

RedRick spoted this in the JV thread:

Thats sounds really good then.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Evidence of what? We're not the ones using non-existent statistics to back up a clarion call for change. You've based a lot of your argument on what you perceive the statistics to be, with no evidence beyond emotive arguments, and when confronted with this, simply insist that if those statistics were kept, they would back you up.

I don't think it can be denied that there are a lot of riders breaking collarbones. I'm just saying it's maybe not the worst injury out there.

Exactly. Although (as far as i am aware of) no entity is gathering public stats about injuries in pro peloton i feel it's safe to say collarbone injuries are as frequent as in "regular" cycling. That is they occur rather often.

For example Vader fractured collarbone and broken shoulder blade. Just today Alaphilippe fractured shoulder blade. In addition if you watched the LBL race and the big crash. A lot of skin was seen on a lot of riders in areas were there should be apparel. That is shoulder blades, shoulders and obviously collarbones for sure took some damage too.

Bottom line apparel manufacturers are currently selling (expensive) crap.

 

[RedheadDane]

For example Vader fractured collarbone and broken shoulder blade. Just today Alaphilippe fractured shoulder blade.

Yeah, I'd consider those the least serious injuries the two riders got.

 

[EliseeReclus]

For what it's worth shoulder padding in rugby (which is largely foam and rubber as any type of cycling padding would be) has been found to be effective only in preventing soft tissue injury and not any type of fracture or dislocation:

"There is still much debate about the usefulness of padding in the prevention of injuries, particularly shoulder padding. The ability of shoulder pads to disperse and absorb force is the main reason why they are used by players. While the pads may reduce minor soft tissue bruising, there are no data to suggest that shoulder padding alone will be effective in preventing shoulder fractures or dislocations. The mechanism of these injuries involves direct impact forces and also rotational forces, something that the pads are not designed to resist."

From here: https://www.springboks.rugby/media/ewanc3gt/review-protective-equipment-in-rugby-union.pdf

So unless you want riders to be wearing full American Football pads (which would probably cause even more crashes), there isn't a feasible means of using apparel to stop shoulder injuries in cycling currently.

 

[thiscocks]

Exactly. Although (as far as i am aware of) no entity is gathering public stats about injuries in pro peloton i feel it's safe to say collarbone injuries are as frequent as in "regular" cycling. That is they occur rather often.

For example Vader fractured collarbone and broken shoulder blade. Just today Alaphilippe fractured shoulder blade. In addition if you watched the LBL race and the big crash. A lot of skin was seen on a lot of riders in areas were there should be apparel. That is shoulder blades, shoulders and obviously collarbones for sure took some damage too.

Bottom line apparel manufacturers are currently selling (expensive) crap.

How do you expect lycra to stop you breaking a bone when hitting a tree at 60 odd kmh?

 

[Ricco']

Regarding shoulder protections, Annemarie Worst has raced this winter with some kind of shoulder pad (on the right) under the jersey. Probably to have some place to rest the bike while running after a earlier injury, but don't know if it can be some kind of effective in a crash.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@RedheadDane

A broken bone usually comes down to a season lost. I hence wouldn't say breaking any bone in your body could be considered as s minor issue. When you say broken it's severe.

@EliseeReclus

I am sure that there is still some middle ground in between the two extremes you described.

@thiscocks

Obviously you can't expect that. That is why i said they are selling crap.

 

[RedheadDane]

@RedheadDane

A broken bone usually comes down to a season lost. I hence wouldn't say breaking any bone in your body could be considered as s minor issue. When you say broken it's severe.

Mathew Hayman broke his arm during the 2016 Omloop. I wouldn't exactly say that season was lost for him...
And he's definitely not the only rider who has come back rather quickly from a break like that.
Of course, broken legs are a more serious matter. But even then riders can come back rather quickly. Contador broke his leg during the 2014 TdF.

 

[tobydawq]

@RedheadDane

A broken bone usually comes down to a season lost. I hence wouldn't say breaking any bone in your body could be considered as s minor issue. When you say broken it's severe.

Lol.

 

[EliseeReclus]

I am sure that there is still some middle ground in between the two extremes you described.

The problem is that foam and rubber (or something very similar) isn't an extreme, it is what any padding that allows movement and is comfortable for for extended periods of time has to be made of. The next step up would be something like mountain bike elbow and knee pads, and I don't know if you've used those before, but they wouldn't be usable for a road cyclist to wear over a 4-7 hour road race (especially in summer), let alone in an area requiring as much movement as the shoulder

Broken collarbones are very very difficult to stop through any padding (just google "NFL Broken Clavicle" and you'll see that it's very common in American Football too and they have huge pads), mainly because it's a weak point in our anatomy and will be the first point of breakage when bracing a fall with an extended arm.

The problem is not that apparel manufacturers are selling crap, the problem here is you are suggesting something with certainty that is completely unfeasible and absolutely ineffective in any reasonable circumstance.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@tobydawq
@RedheadDane

It is true that modern medicine can for example use a piece of metal and a few screws. To shorten the time to get back on the bike. But i wouldn't consider that to be an optimal season. If in best case scenario you can still compete after in some events latter in the season. All in all body needs time to heal properly. Relaying on a metal bar. Well ...

@EliseeReclus

There is a reason i didn't propose any special apparel. People would be too focused on that suggestion only after. You were more specific but the problem with your reasoning is you pointed out what you believe are unsolvable issues and now i guess you try to make a conclusion that because of that this are in general all an unsolvable problems. For example to be impossible to see a reduction in stats in regards to some type of injuries. And done in a way it's in general acceptable.

I don't agree with that. I do agree with you that knee and elbow could be more technically challenging areas. At least in theory.

P.S. As for the crap remark. Buy any jersey from any top pro road racing team. After first crash come here in this thread and tell me if the apparel was crap or not.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

@tobydawq
@RedheadDane

It is true that modern medicine can for example use a piece of metal and a few screws. To shorten the time to get back on the bike. But i wouldn't consider that to be an optimal season. If in best case scenario you can still compete after in some events latter in the season. All in all body needs time to heal properly. Relaying on a metal bar. Well ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Vuelta_a_Espa%C3%B1a

@EliseeReclus

There is a reason i didn't propose any special apparel. People would be too focused on that suggestion only after. You were more specific but the problem with your reasoning is you pointed out what you believe are unsolvable issues and now i guess you try to make a conclusion that because of that this are in general all an unsolvable problems. For example to be impossible to see a reduction in stats in regards to some type of injuries. And done in a way it's in general acceptable.

I don't agree with that. I do agree with you that knee and elbow could be more technically challenging areas. At least in theory.

P.S. As for the crap remark. Buy any jersey from any top pro road racing team. After first crash come here in this thread and tell me if the apparel was crap or not.

Collarbones are in my opinion rather static and as such highly suitable for apparel that prevents injuries caused by a direct blow.

(Also the biggest problem with that is that most collarbone injuries in cycling are not caused by a direct blow but instead by being a point of weakness when using an arm to break one's fall, as EliseeReclus points out)

 

[RedheadDane]

It is true that modern medicine can for example use a piece of metal and a few screws. To shorten the time to get back on the bike. But i wouldn't consider that to be an optimal season. If in best case scenario you can still compete after in some events latter in the season. All in all body needs time to heal properly. Relaying on a metal bar. Well ...

I forgot you only started watching cycling quite recently.
Mathew Hayman won the 2016 Paris-Roubaix!
And as LS pointed out in her link; Contador won the 2014 Vuelta!
And for an example I forgot; Annemiek Van Vleuten broke her spine three places during the Rio Olympics; she won the Belgium Tour that same year.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I forgot you only started watching cycling quite recently.
Mathew Hayman won the 2016 Paris-Roubaix!
And as LS pointed out in her link; Contador won the 2014 Vuelta!
And for an example I forgot; Annemiek Van Vleuten broke her spine three places during the Rio Olympics; she won the Belgium Tour that same year.

And Michael Rasmussen "won" the Tour with a metal plate and screws in his hip.