Crashes, what can be done?

[Devil's Elbow]

This thread is getting way too many reasons to be bumped lately... even aside from De Lie's recklessness and Welsford's dangerousness, this is hardly the first time Dunkerque has had a non-compliant finish. How hard can it be to move the finish line 50 metres?

 

[tobydawq]

The stage finish in Hellas was far more dangerous because of its layout - I wonder how it was approved.

No it wasn't. It was more likely to cause a crash but less likely to cause death.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

This thread is getting way too many reasons to be bumped lately... even aside from De Lie's recklessness and Welsford's dangerousness, this is hardly the first time Dunkerque has had a non-compliant finish. How hard can it be to move the finish line 50 metres?

lol, in what universe is De Lie at fault here?

 

[Devil's Elbow]

lol, in what universe is De Lie at fault here?

Once again, you're reading a post of mine as blaming Belgians when the point was that the most obvious way in which a crash like this could have been prevented (you know, in the spirit of the topic title) was the organisers moving the finish by 50 metres, but sure, I'll elaborate (even if I said most of this in the other thread):

De Lie is arguably at fault for going into a gap where there's not much lateral motion required from either McLay or Welsford for a crash to occur.
The organisers are definitely at fault for having the finish in a curve, which amongst other things increases the risk/amount of lateral motion in a sprint.
Welsford is definitely at fault for not only deviating to the right but also sticking out his elbow when he can see he's pushing De Lie into McLay by doing so. Deserved relegation.

So, at most, De Lie is at fault for the crash to a comparatively minor extent. However, he does put himself into a position where the risk of such a crash was pretty high, which I felt was reckless. That's not blaming him for the crash actually happening, though, you're doing the exact thing you've accused me of doing in the past by twisting my words.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Once again, you're reading a post of mine as blaming Belgians when the point was that the most obvious way in which a crash like this could have been prevented (you know, in the spirit of the topic title) was the organisers moving the finish by 50 metres, but sure, I'll elaborate (even if I said most of this in the other thread):

De Lie is arguably at fault for going into a gap where there's not much lateral motion required from either McLay or Welsford for a crash to occur.
The organisers are definitely at fault for having the finish in a curve, which amongst other things increases the risk/amount of lateral motion in a sprint.
Welsford is definitely at fault for not only deviating to the right but also sticking out his elbow when he can see he's pushing De Lie into McLay by doing so. Deserved relegation.

So, at most, De Lie is at fault for the crash to a comparatively minor extent. However, he does put himself into a position where the risk of such a crash was pretty high, which I felt was reckless. That's not blaming him for the crash actually happening, though, you're doing the exact thing you've accused me of doing in the past by twisting my words.

Why do you bring up the fact that he is Belgian? A gap opens up in front of him, it is big enough to move through. If a sprinter isn't allowed or even supposed to go for that opportunity, then you should simply forbid sprints alltogether.

 

[tobydawq]

Why do you bring up the fact that he is Belgian? A gap opens up in front of him, it is big enough to move through. If a sprinter isn't allowed or even supposed to go for that opportunity, then you should simply forbid sprints alltogether.

I certainly don't think it was wise to try to go through that gap. I don't think it was smart what Jakobsen did either. Or Sagan for that matter when he squeezed past Van Aert after which the Belgian apparently called him a *** monkey.

 

[yaco]

No it wasn't. It was more likely to cause a crash but less likely to cause death.

Any crash can cause a death - The Jakobsen crash was caused by Groenewegen's careless riding - It wasn't the course design.

 

[yaco]

I certainly don't think it was wise to try to go through that gap. I don't think it was smart what Jakobsen did either. Or Sagan for that matter when he squeezed past Van Aert after which the Belgian apparently called him a *** monkey.

The Jakobsen crash was a result of Groenewegen's deviation off the line in which there was enough room - It's always more dangerous when you try to go between two riders as in the case of De Lie - There's always a chance one of the two riders could drift off line - At the end of the day, sprinters are crazy and at times will take unnecessary risks.

 

[Bonimenier]

Any crash can cause a death - The Jakobsen crash was caused by Groenewegen's careless riding - It wasn't the course design.

The crash? Yes
The severity of the injuries? No

 

[tobydawq]

Any crash can cause a death - The Jakobsen crash was caused by Groenewegen's careless riding - It wasn't the course design.

This is a ridiculous claim. Of course the risk of death is bigger when the riders go above 80 kph because the finale is on a downward slope than if it's around 65 kph on a normal flat finish.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I certainly don't think it was wise to try to go through that gap. I don't think it was smart what Jakobsen did either. Or Sagan for that matter when he squeezed past Van Aert after which the Belgian apparently called him a *** monkey.

Rubbish. Complete rubbish. I sincererly hope you either didn't see the sprint from heli-view, or that you are making a lame joke. There is not a sprinter on this earth that would not move through that gap. And if there were, he could probably start looking for another team/job.

De Lie is right NEXT to Welsford when he starts to push him into McLay. Look at the images or the footage again please.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Any crash can cause a death - The Jakobsen crash was caused by Groenewegen's careless riding - It wasn't the course design.

This you?

I believe it was a racing incident - It does not help that the finish gently curved in the last 30 metres.

 

[tobydawq]

Rubbish. Complete rubbish. I sincererly hope you either didn't see the sprint from heli-view, or that you are making a lame joke. There is not a sprinter on this earth that would not move through that gap. And if there were, he could probably start looking for another team/job.

De Lie is right NEXT to Welsford when he starts to push him into McLay. Look at the images or the footage again please.

Why do you need to try to ridicule me? At some point after this picture, it was evident for De Lie that there was not enough space. I just said it wasn't particularly wise to push his luck when the door was closed. I'm not saying he should be like Bennati in his old days, everything isn't black or white. But when the probability for a successful manoeuvre becomes to small, there's no real point in continuing to aim for such a gap. He doesn't gain anything by claiming his right when lying on the ground with broken bones.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Why do you need to try to ridicule me? At some point after this picture, it was evident for De Lie that there was not enough space. I just said it wasn't particularly wise to push his luck when the door was closed. I'm not saying he should be like Bennati in his old days, everything isn't black or white. But when the probability for a successful manoeuvre becomes to small, there's no real point in continuing to aim for such a gap. He doesn't gain anything by claiming his right when lying on the ground with broken bones.

I'm ridiculing your statement, because it is ridiculous. I'm not ridiculing you as a person.

Already in this picture De Lie is overtaking Welsford. Already at this moment he his 80% next to Welsford. This is victim blaming 101. At no point after this picture was Welsford riding away from De Lie. Hence the space WAS there for De Lie and he was already in it. Welsford was not in front of De Lie so any sort of "closing the space" meant 100% pushing De Lie because the space was not Welsford's anymore to close.

 

[tobydawq]

I'm ridiculing your statement, because it is ridiculous. I'm not ridiculing you as a person.

Already in this picture De Lie is overtaking Welsford. Already at this moment he his 80% next to Welsford. This is victim blaming 101. At no point after this picture was Welsford riding away from De Lie. Hence the space WAS there for De Lie and he was already in it. Welsford was not in front of De Lie so any sort of "closing the space" meant 100% pushing De Lie because the space was not Welsford's anymore to close.

My statement is certainly not ridiculous. And if it wasn't one of your Belgians, you wouldn't even care what had happened. But now it is, and instead of it being a controversial incident with no clear assignment of guilt, it's 100% assault by Welsford and De Lie would 100% be fired by his team if he had backed off. Which he apparently couldn't because Welsford barged into him from a completely perpendicular direction with no chance whatsoever of De Lie having seen him before it happened.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

My statement is certainly not ridiculous. And if it wasn't one of your Belgians, you wouldn't even care what had happened. But now it is, and instead of it being a controversial incident with no clear assignment of guilt, it's 100% assault by Welsford and De Lie would 100% be fired by his team if he had backed off. Which he apparently couldn't because Welsford barged into him from a completely perpendicular direction with no chance whatsoever of De Lie having seen him before it happened.

Right, because Jakobsen is also a Belgian. And i didn't care what happened there either, right? Stop talking out of your ass. Even if your ridiculous insinuation were true, it doesn't change what happened in this instance. De Lie is already next to Welsford when the latter starts drifting. End of story.

 

[yaco]

This you?

Please use quotes in context and use the full quote.

The first quote referred to the Jakobsen and Groenewegen crash.

The second quote referred to the Welsford and De Lie crash.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Please use quotes in context and use the full quote.

The first quote referred to the Jakobsen and Groenewegen crash.

The second quote referred to the Welsford and De Lie crash.

I'm quite confident that was his point. You claim this was a racing incident, while Jakobsen fell victim of Groenewegen's behavior.

And i think this was nearly as bad as Groenewegen, with the exception that Groenewegen pushed Jakobsen directly into the barriers, while Welsford pushed De Lie into another rider. Other than that, there isn't that much of a difference. The main difference is that De Lie has a concussion, and that Jakobsen went into a coma with a mangled body. They both clearly start to move as they feel they are going to be overtaken. If you imagine the line McClay is riding, to be barriers, and when you look at where Welsford is relative to the dotted line next to him, and where he ends up when he ultimately bodyslams De Lie into McClay, you would understand what i mean. This was 100% on Welsford. Now he starts tweeting about how it is difficult to control a bike at 70kph. He just so happened to be able to sprint straight at first, only when De Lie starts overtaking him, does he find it difficult to control his bike, and he just so happens to start moving towards the rider who is overtaking him. The entire road to his right is completely open, but him having difficulty to control his bike at 70kph, makes him move the other way accidentally. That or maybe it was De Lie's gravitational pull that was too big to resist.

 

[yaco]

I'm quite confident that was his point. You claim this was a racing incident, while Jakobsen fell victim of Groenewegen's behavior.

And i think this was nearly as bad as Groenewegen, with the exception that Groenewegen pushed Jakobsen directly into the barriers, while Welsford pushed De Lie into another rider. Other than that, there isn't that much of a difference. The main difference is that De Lie has a concussion, and that Jakobsen went into a coma with a mangled body. They both clearly start to move as they feel they are going to be overtaken. If you imagine the line McClay is riding, to be barriers, and when you look at where Welsford is relative to the dotted line next to him, and where he ends up when he ultimately bodyslams De Lie into McClay, you would understand what i mean. This was 100% on Welsford. Now he starts tweeting about how it is difficult to control a bike at 70kph. He just so happened to be able to sprint straight at first, only when De Lie starts overtaking him, does he find it difficult to control his bike, and he just so happens to start moving towards the rider who is overtaking him. The entire road to his right is completely open, but him having difficulty to control his bike at 70kph, makes him move the other way accidentally. That or maybe it was De Lie's gravitational pull that was too big to resist.

The problem is people are always selective - The Groenewegen move was a mid-level offence but which ended up with an unfortunate crash and serious injury - The Welsford manoueuvre was at a lower level then the Groenewegen manouevre - The fact is that sprinters often veer off their line in the final as they using their last reserves of energy - This is the nature of the sport - The worst manoueuvre I've seen in the last three years was the Impey move on Stannard in the final stage of the 2021 Ruta Del Sol but it is seldom discussed because they are not considered sexy subjects - At the end of the day, sprinters are CRAZY and they often take unnecessary risks,

Finally, the original discussion in this latest iteration of the thread was discussing the sketchy finish in stage four of the Tour of Hellas which caused a pileup of eight to ten riders in the last two hundred metres - One or two compared it to the final of the Tour of Poland stage which had the Jakobsen incident - I pointed out that IMO the Tour of Hellas final was more dangerous then that Tour of Poland finish.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The problem is people are always selective - The Groenewegen move was a mid-level offence but which ended up with an unfortunate crash and serious injury - The Welsford manoueuvre was at a lower level then the Groenewegen manouevre - The fact is that sprinters often veer off their line in the final as they using their last reserves of energy - This is the nature of the sport - The worst manoueuvre I've seen in the last three years was the Impey move on Stannard in the final stage of the 2021 Ruta Del Sol but it is seldom discussed because they are not considered sexy subjects - At the end of the day, sprinters are CRAZY and they often take unnecessary risks,

Finally, the original discussion in this latest iteration of the thread was discussing the sketchy finish in stage four of the Tour of Hellas which caused a pileup of eight to ten riders in the last two hundred metres - One or two compared it to the final of the Tour of Poland stage which had the Jakobsen incident - I pointed out that IMO the Tour of Hellas final was more dangerous then that Tour of Poland finish.

UCI should definitely start handing out more severe punishment (suspensions) for illegal sprints, regardless of whether they cause a crash. That would be a start. Rider safety has to be a responsibility of the organizer as well as the riders and it's clear riders themselves have a lot to learn as well. I think after a few dozens of suspensions throughout the peloton, riders will start getting it and if we can have less crashes in sprints, i think we'll cut the number of injuries considerably.

 

[Netserk]

Victim blaming? Cringe.

No one morally blamed De Lie for the crash, they called his behaviour reckless. Putting yourself at (unnecessary) risk (of others) is being reckless.

 

[King Boonen]

Looks like Welsford's arm gets hooked by De Lie and it drags him across. I honestly don't think anyone is to blame with this one. De Lie goes for a small gap that opens for about a second, Welsford drifts slightly but the idea that a sprinter is going to ride like they are on a rail while trying to push 1500+W through the pedals is ridiculous and the slight bend in the course over the finish line means the riders will naturally drift to their left a little bit anyway. You can pull whatever freeze frames you want from an overhead video after the fact, but this just feels like a a split second decision that went the wrong way.

 

[RedheadDane]

Have you all noticed one thing?
We're back to discussing crashes, what causes them, and how to prevent them. Rather than discussing whether protecting collarbones should be the numero uno priority.

 

[ice&fire]

Just when I thought that the Giro hilltop finish was safe with no Vingegaard in the race... here comes Ewan the most stupid crash since his last attempt to sprint at the Tour.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Just when I thought that the Giro hilltop finish was safe with no Vingegaard in the race... here comes Ewan the most stupid crash since his last attempt to sprint at the Tour.

What about Geraint Thomas in Romandie last year? I know it was raining then, but at least Ewan was in proximity to somebody else and didn't just crash on his own. I'd count Prades in Greece with the celebrating too late + saddle collapse doublette, too.