Crashes, what can be done?

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Please use quotes in context and use the full quote.

The first quote referred to the Jakobsen and Groenewegen crash.

The second quote referred to the Welsford and De Lie crash.
I'm quite confident that was his point. You claim this was a racing incident, while Jakobsen fell victim of Groenewegen's behavior.

And i think this was nearly as bad as Groenewegen, with the exception that Groenewegen pushed Jakobsen directly into the barriers, while Welsford pushed De Lie into another rider. Other than that, there isn't that much of a difference. The main difference is that De Lie has a concussion, and that Jakobsen went into a coma with a mangled body. They both clearly start to move as they feel they are going to be overtaken. If you imagine the line McClay is riding, to be barriers, and when you look at where Welsford is relative to the dotted line next to him, and where he ends up when he ultimately bodyslams De Lie into McClay, you would understand what i mean. This was 100% on Welsford. Now he starts tweeting about how it is difficult to control a bike at 70kph. He just so happened to be able to sprint straight at first, only when De Lie starts overtaking him, does he find it difficult to control his bike, and he just so happens to start moving towards the rider who is overtaking him. The entire road to his right is completely open, but him having difficulty to control his bike at 70kph, makes him move the other way accidentally. That or maybe it was De Lie's gravitational pull that was too big to resist.
 
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I'm quite confident that was his point. You claim this was a racing incident, while Jakobsen fell victim of Groenewegen's behavior.

And i think this was nearly as bad as Groenewegen, with the exception that Groenewegen pushed Jakobsen directly into the barriers, while Welsford pushed De Lie into another rider. Other than that, there isn't that much of a difference. The main difference is that De Lie has a concussion, and that Jakobsen went into a coma with a mangled body. They both clearly start to move as they feel they are going to be overtaken. If you imagine the line McClay is riding, to be barriers, and when you look at where Welsford is relative to the dotted line next to him, and where he ends up when he ultimately bodyslams De Lie into McClay, you would understand what i mean. This was 100% on Welsford. Now he starts tweeting about how it is difficult to control a bike at 70kph. He just so happened to be able to sprint straight at first, only when De Lie starts overtaking him, does he find it difficult to control his bike, and he just so happens to start moving towards the rider who is overtaking him. The entire road to his right is completely open, but him having difficulty to control his bike at 70kph, makes him move the other way accidentally. That or maybe it was De Lie's gravitational pull that was too big to resist.
The problem is people are always selective - The Groenewegen move was a mid-level offence but which ended up with an unfortunate crash and serious injury - The Welsford manoueuvre was at a lower level then the Groenewegen manouevre - The fact is that sprinters often veer off their line in the final as they using their last reserves of energy - This is the nature of the sport - The worst manoueuvre I've seen in the last three years was the Impey move on Stannard in the final stage of the 2021 Ruta Del Sol but it is seldom discussed because they are not considered sexy subjects - At the end of the day, sprinters are CRAZY and they often take unnecessary risks,

Finally, the original discussion in this latest iteration of the thread was discussing the sketchy finish in stage four of the Tour of Hellas which caused a pileup of eight to ten riders in the last two hundred metres - One or two compared it to the final of the Tour of Poland stage which had the Jakobsen incident - I pointed out that IMO the Tour of Hellas final was more dangerous then that Tour of Poland finish.
 
The problem is people are always selective - The Groenewegen move was a mid-level offence but which ended up with an unfortunate crash and serious injury - The Welsford manoueuvre was at a lower level then the Groenewegen manouevre - The fact is that sprinters often veer off their line in the final as they using their last reserves of energy - This is the nature of the sport - The worst manoueuvre I've seen in the last three years was the Impey move on Stannard in the final stage of the 2021 Ruta Del Sol but it is seldom discussed because they are not considered sexy subjects - At the end of the day, sprinters are CRAZY and they often take unnecessary risks,

Finally, the original discussion in this latest iteration of the thread was discussing the sketchy finish in stage four of the Tour of Hellas which caused a pileup of eight to ten riders in the last two hundred metres - One or two compared it to the final of the Tour of Poland stage which had the Jakobsen incident - I pointed out that IMO the Tour of Hellas final was more dangerous then that Tour of Poland finish.
UCI should definitely start handing out more severe punishment (suspensions) for illegal sprints, regardless of whether they cause a crash. That would be a start. Rider safety has to be a responsibility of the organizer as well as the riders and it's clear riders themselves have a lot to learn as well. I think after a few dozens of suspensions throughout the peloton, riders will start getting it and if we can have less crashes in sprints, i think we'll cut the number of injuries considerably.
 
Looks like Welsford's arm gets hooked by De Lie and it drags him across. I honestly don't think anyone is to blame with this one. De Lie goes for a small gap that opens for about a second, Welsford drifts slightly but the idea that a sprinter is going to ride like they are on a rail while trying to push 1500+W through the pedals is ridiculous and the slight bend in the course over the finish line means the riders will naturally drift to their left a little bit anyway. You can pull whatever freeze frames you want from an overhead video after the fact, but this just feels like a a split second decision that went the wrong way.
 
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Just when I thought that the Giro hilltop finish was safe with no Vingegaard in the race... here comes Ewan the most stupid crash since his last attempt to sprint at the Tour.
What about Geraint Thomas in Romandie last year? I know it was raining then, but at least Ewan was in proximity to somebody else and didn't just crash on his own. I'd count Prades in Greece with the celebrating too late + saddle collapse doublette, too.
 
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What about Geraint Thomas in Romandie last year? I know it was raining then, but at least Ewan was in proximity to somebody else and didn't just crash on his own. I'd count Prades in Greece with the celebrating too late + saddle collapse doublette, too.
On the other hand your hand slipping in cold, rainy weather on the brake hoods is much more of an incident than just sprinting straight, hitting your opponents rear wheel without even trying to change your line to surpass him and hitting the deck...
 
I actually thought Ewan was a master in handling his bike. But in the Tour 2021 and Giro 2022, he crashed twice in the finales. Maybe just bad luck, but riders like van Aert or Sagan in the past never crashed, even in the most hectic finales.

Sad for Caleb. He‘s such a good guy. He‘s as fast as McEwan was, but Caleb is a good person (Robbie was rather unpopular because Robbie often rode dirty and dangerous sprints).
 
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I actually thought Ewan was a master in handling his bike. But in the Tour 2021 and Giro 2022, he crashed twice in the finales. Maybe just bad luck, but riders like van Aert or Sagan in the past never crashed, even in the most hectic finales.

Sad for Caleb. He‘s such a good guy. He‘s as fast as McEwan was, but Caleb is a good person (Robbie was rather unpopular because Robbie often rode dirty and dangerous sprints).
MeEwan wasn’t a dirty sprinter at all, he was just a crafty/talented sprinter who knew how to surf the wheels and find the gaps.
Ewan is a good bike handler who like every other bike rider occasionally makes a mistake, I don’t think what happened yesterday or in last years Tour is enough to judge him a bad bike handler.
 
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Sep 22, 2020
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Have you all noticed one thing?
We're back to discussing crashes, what causes them, and how to prevent them. Rather than discussing whether protecting collarbones should be the numero uno priority.
just curious, how you want to do that.

Crashes are part of the race, because there are 100+ cyclists who are racing at their limits and try to win. the only thing one can do is minimizing the risk in create a, as save as possible route. But still, the factor rider which is going for a small gap is still there.

By the way it would be interesting to know if there are less crashes at sprint stages since there is the 3 km rule or if the crashes just happen farer out the finish.
 
just curious, how you want to do that.

Crashes are part of the race, because there are 100+ cyclists who are racing at their limits and try to win. the only thing one can do is minimizing the risk in create a, as save as possible route. But still, the factor rider which is going for a small gap is still there.

By the way it would be interesting to know if there are less crashes at sprint stages since there is the 3 km rule or if the crashes just happen farer out the finish.
Okay, maybe "prevent" was the wrong word. I suppose "limit" would have been better.
It's impossible to 100% prevent crashes, but they can be limited.
 
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You keep acting as if collarbones are the worst of the worst of injuries, when in reality riders get back in business rather quickly.
They are by far the most frequent ones. Hence focusing on preventing them makes the most sense. As collarbone is usually the first to break in this area. Reducing the number of collarbone injury occurrences should hence have beneficial effect when it comes to injuries in this whole area. Another area i guess is the hip area and upper leg. Apparel is already there and it currently doesn't offer any protection against injuries.

Try googling 'NFL collarbone injury', and then look at the amount of padding those guys wear.

Seeing as you keep calling for apparel manufacturers to create something but have no ideas of your own, how about admitting that maybe - just maybe - this is something that apparel manufacturers, riders, organisers and sport governing bodies have already considered, but without being able to find a solution that doesn't also badly compromise the riders? The thing is, riders need the flexibility and dexterity to help them avoid crashes in the first place. It's no good preventing collarbone injuries in x % of crashes if you then cause the number of crashes to go up and neutralise that benefit.
So let me get this straight. What you are saying is it's impossible to reduce number of collarbone injuries in road cycling by using more protective apparel.

This is your claim?

CyclistAlbi's position seems to be based on the premise of a design that nobody has ever come up with utilising a material that no-one has ever invented.

As such, it can't be said to be a bad idea, any more than the Nimbus 2000 is a bad idea. But while it cannot be any more than an idea, there seems little point in discussing it.

Until it is trialled in the Hogsmeade - Godric's Hollow Classic.
I agree with you in the sense of you get to choose if you see some point in discussing something or not.
 
They are by far the most frequent ones. Hence focusing on preventing them makes the most sense. As collarbone is usually the first to break in this area. Reducing the number of collarbone injury occurrences should hence have beneficial effect when it comes to injuries in this areas. Another area i guess is the hip area and upper leg. Apparel is already there and it currently doesn't offer any protection against injuries.



So let me get this straight. What you are saying is it's impossible to reduce number of collarbone injuries in road cycling by using more protective apparel.

This is your claim?



I agree with you in the sense of you get to choose if you see some point in discussing something or not.
To expand on Libertine’s point, imagine the weight the NFL players are carrying with their pads on and they still get injured. When they get hit and land on grass and not going as fast compared to cyclists. With cyclists landing on the asphalt. Now imagine the riders trying to complete a stage/race with an extra 3-6 lbs and still having to maintain their mobility. We’d have to have big advancements in technology before we can get what you’re thinking of.
 
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Broken collarbones are also the most frequently fractured/broken bone in the general population as well for what it's worth, I don't think an overdue focus on them is particularly helpful in harm reduction in crashes.

me get this straight. What you are saying is it's impossible to reduce number of collarbone injuries in road cycling by using more protective apparel.
Maybe not completely impossible, but certainly only possible to an absolutely minimal degree due to how collarbones break, which would not be practical with the demands on apparel for breathability and comfort. Maybe if you're so certain that this is possible you can show us an actually existing solution to this problem that is proven to significantly reduce harm and can fit with the demands of road cycling.
 
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And what will you all say when pro peloton will actually start wearing protective apparel and collarbone injuries will see a substantial drop? That it was all for nothing? The way you are acting now is just irrational. That is you don't even care if a collarbone gets broken or not. To prove a point? What point? Acting like it's nothing and it makes no difference. Personally i must say i am surprised to see such level of not giving a damn about it. Didn't expect that to be honest. If this is the general sentiment no wonder nothing gets done.
 
There's a huge difference between "not caring" and "realising that while breaking a collarbone obviously sucks for the rider in question, especially if it happens right before a major seasonal goal, it's just not reasonable to expect riders to wear any kind of protective apparel, as it would undoubtedly limit their movement."

Besides, as I have asked frequently, if you're so hung up on protective apparel, why not something that'll reduce injuries to inner organs?
 
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And what will you all say when pro peloton will actually start wearing protective apparel and collarbone injuries will see a substantial drop? That it was all for nothing? The way you are acting now is just irrational. That is you don't even care if a collarbone gets broken or not. To prove a point? What point? Acting like it's nothing and it makes no difference. Personally i must say i am surprised to see such level of not giving a damn about it. Didn't expect that to be honest. If this is the general sentiment no wonder nothing gets done.

It will never happen.
 
@RedheadDane

At least you are rational and admit it's a problem that you actually care about it. On why the irrational conclusion. On how nothing "must" be done. That is beyond me. But OK.

It will never happen.
This is rather normal in my opinion. For majority of people to take such stance about anything. But in the end such things always tend to happen anyway. Jut the normal way of progress. Now obviously progress sometimes takes the wrong turn too. But in general this is it. On how progress work.
 
@RedheadDane

At least you are rational and admit it's a problem that you actually care about it. On why the irrational conclusion. On how nothing "must" be done. That is beyond me. But OK.



This is rather normal in my opinion. For majority of people to take such stance about anything. But in the end such things always tend to happen anyway. Jut the normal way of progress. Now obviously progress sometimes takes the wrong turn too. But in general this is it. On how progress work.
But this is such an irrelevant thing that hardly calls for a revolution. Please open your own thread in the Cycling Gear and Accesories or Fantasy Cycling section of the forum to promote your mollycoddling nonsense that has no chance of ever materialising in Professional Cycling which this forum section is about.
 
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