Crashes, what can be done?

[CyclistAbi]

Anyway. Based on all the discussions we had so far. On what can be done in the future. Short summary:

1.) Bunch sprint stages. Here i feel it's safe to say number of crashes and hence injuries can get reduced twofold. For sprinters with better and strictly enforced rules. For the bunch as a whole. In reducing it before the actual finish.

2.) Apparel. Currently apparel offers no protection against any sort of injuries. At best it can prevent mild road rash. Claiming nothing can be done to make the apparel more protective and for that to be detected in statistics is in my opinion not worth of serious discussion. For sure something can be done.

3.) Spectators. Current system works in a way spectator will get involved in a crash and the only consequence after to be nothing or a lawsuit. Beyond that not much gets done. Here the biggest problem in my opinion is the lack of quality education. First establishing some key points. Like don't reach in the parameter of the road. Always keep your eyes on the peloton. Warn others if they are behaving irrationally. If spectators would get educated in such way then on the long term situation would improve.

4.) Improving the decision making. If conditions are too extreme for appropriate measures to be taken on the day of the event.

Another area worth investigating is availability of quality safety oriented equipment and signaling. Where if you would organize a race on top level you would automatically get access to "few trucks of equipment". And to be installed through the course in "excessive way". Here i would support statistical approach too. That is having a detailed list of safety related incidents and when introduction some equipment for the improvement to be detected in the stats.

 

[EliseeReclus]

And what will you all say when pro peloton will actually start wearing protective apparel and collarbone injuries will see a substantial drop? That it was all for nothing? The way you are acting now is just irrational. That is you don't even care if a collarbone gets broken or not. To prove a point? What point? Acting like it's nothing and it makes no difference. Personally i must say i am surprised to see such level of not giving a damn about it. Didn't expect that to be honest. If this is the general sentiment no wonder nothing gets done.

I'm not saying nothing should be done - I'm saying there currently exists no technology that would function to stop a collarbone breaking and having this discussion is completely pointless. If there exists some kind of magic apparel solution then great, but it doesn't exist at the moment so arguing about whether it should be implemented is completely academic.

It's pretty hard to have a discussion when the majority of people here are proposing things that are practical and actually existing potential solutions, while you seem happy to throw around insults at anyone who doesn't agree with your completely fantastical solutions that you refuse to back up with any kind of actually existing evidence that it can exist.

In this vein, I suggest that we install magnets into every inch of road surface covered by any bike race, and also make cyclists apparel with similar poled magnets so that should they lose balance the magnets repel one another and they can't contact the ground. If you don't agree with this solution and want it implemented immediately then you clearly don't care about rider welfare and have no business in calling yourself a true cycling fan!

 

[CyclistAbi]

@EliseeReclus

Are you sure it doesn't already exist? And are you sure that based on the discussions there is in general support in regards to introducing more protective apparel in pro peloton?

As for saying i am throwing around insults. Rest assured i am not doing that.

 

[EliseeReclus]

@EliseeReclus

Are you sure it doesn't already exist? And are you sure that based on the discussions there is in general support in regards to introducing more protective apparel in pro peloton?

As for saying i am throwing around insults. Rest assured i am not doing that.

You are throwing around insults, you are saying that people who disagree with you don't care about rider safety. In my book that is an insult!

Why is the burden of proof on me to show that something doesn't exist when you've proposed it? Can you demonstrate that my magnet solution won't work?

 

[SHAD0W93]

@RedheadDane
This is rather normal in my opinion. For majority of people to take such stance about anything. But in the end such things always tend to happen anyway. Jut the normal way of progress. Now obviously progress sometimes takes the wrong turn too. But in general this is it. On how progress work.

When do you think technology like this will exist? And when do you think cost will be down that they can afford it?

 

[CyclistAbi]

You are throwing around insults, you are saying that people who disagree with you don't care about rider safety. In my book that is an insult!

Why is the burden of proof on me to show that something doesn't exist when you've proposed it? Can you demonstrate that my magnet solution won't work?

I newer said for people that don't agree with me don't care about rider safety. it's the other way around. The people who didn't agree with me themselves made claims on how it's not worth it.

As for your idea about magnets. Sure. Why not. But it would likely reduced the total number of areas where one could organize the race. To lets say some Japan railways.

Bottom line. That is something for the future and it could work. As for the present. Best to focus in making the apparel more protective. Now if you don't agree with that fine. I don't feel any need to insult you about it.

 

[EliseeReclus]

Acting like it's nothing and it makes no difference. Personally i must say i am surprised to see such level of not giving a damn about it. Didn't expect that to be honest. If this is the general sentiment no wonder nothing gets done.

How is this anything but suggesting we don't care about rider safety?

 

[CyclistAbi]

How is this anything but suggesting we don't care about rider safety?

But that are your (other participant in this thread) claims and not mine? Why are you asking me this question?

I am surprised too.

 

[CyclistAbi]

When do you think technology like this will exist? And when do you think cost will be down that they can afford it?

OK i get it. Some of you will go on and on about this and unless i produce technical drawings that prevent 100% of collarbone injuries ... Unless that happens you proved your point. I do get it.

For people claiming that i will reduce the expectations and claim current apparel with current tech can provide more protection. In any way imaginable.

And lets start small.

 

[SHAD0W93]

OK i get it. Some of you will go on and on about this and unless i produce technical drawings that prevent 100% of collarbone injuries ... Unless that happens you proved your point. I do get it.

For people claiming that i will reduce the expectations and claim current apparel with current tech can provide more protection. In any way imaginable.

And lets start small.

People never thought we’d have a phone in our hand, a car to drive, or can start at a TV and it show us the other side of the world. But unless we start having crazy advancements in product, we’re not at even a small point for the Lycra they wear.

Unfortunately it’s not like the issue with when they started making wearing a helmet mandatory for safety. If they wear like the NFL pads the sports will change for the worst with smaller stages so the riders aren’t as tired or overheat. As with the technology we have correctly, it is the riders having more padding to help cushion the impact. Extra padding would help, but the number of what will actually help decrease not just broken collarbones and other injuries does not have any data on how the riders will perform with heavier, hotter clothes from the extra padding. In the Halo video games, they have the Spartan armor. Under that armor is a clothing that is like the clothing line full body armor. That is the material you’re thinking of that will the be replaced with/in the Lycra and the time humanity got that material was in the 2600 century. Well past any of our life times.

That’s why I asked when it would happen and the cost because it is unfair to claim of others that they don’t think it could happen. When our great grandchildren wouldn’t be alive to see it if it follows the Halo timeline. I’m sure no one in 1600-1900’s thought we’d be living life like we are now.


And the way to that technology would probably come from the military in order to try and protect the troops from injury. Heck, they could even have tarmac that cushions your fall so you’re not injured at all and it’s like you never fell.

A Broken Collarbone Is a Common Cycling Injury, and It Has to Do With the Way Cyclists Tend to Fall

We talked to top docs to break down the basics, from how long you’ll be off the bike to what to expect once it’s healed.

www.bicycling.com

https://www.dickssportinggoods.com/p/p-tex-shoulder-support-with-multi-strap-stability-system-17pteuptxshldrsppspm/17pteuptxshldrsppspm?sku=18246433&camp=CSE:DSG_92700053481425171_pla_pla-508118628217&segment=&gclid=CjwKCAjwve2TBhByEiwAaktM1LhG1VkdiUEtQB6ljgmIHa9dvPQcN2051PO7BwJSksqaK8W6jm51dRoCWioQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Here is this product. Something that protects 1 shoulder and the use buyers have it for us to do heavy weight lifting and wrestling. That’s different then a 20-30 mph crash.

https://www.amazon.com/EVS-Sports-Shoulder-Brace-X-Large/dp/B00HJGG3UY/ref=asc_df_B00HJGG3UY/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309770208664&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5195529437050547920&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1014362&hvtargid=pla-568668674049&psc=1

This is like a back brace, so no real protection with a crash.

https://www.dickssportinggoods.com/p/copper-fit-elite-shoulder-compression-sleeve-19av5ultshldrxxxxspm/19av5ultshldrxxxxspm?sku=20709343&camp=CSE:DSG_92700053481428159_pla_pla-505052146020&segment=&gclid=CjwKCAjwve2TBhByEiwAaktM1N9DiYyhVP21_Olgg8Zb0lc3fVNRsaUeK1RlxfArRdR-iI2I40XBqhoCA2EQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

This is to prevent muscle/joint swelling or pain.





This isn’t even talking about the legal and illegal clinical side with some medications making your bones more brittle with use, that could increase the occurrence as well.

 

[Armchair cyclist]

And what will you all say when pro peloton will actually start wearing protective apparel and collarbone injuries will see a substantial drop? That it was all for nothing? The way you are acting now is just irrational. That is you don't even care if a collarbone gets broken or not. To prove a point? What point? Acting like it's nothing and it makes no difference. Personally i must say i am surprised to see such level of not giving a damn about it. Didn't expect that to be honest. If this is the general sentiment no wonder nothing gets done.

I'm sure none of us object to such a development being made: indeed, I am sure we would all be very happy to see it. We all are disappointed to see any rider incur an injury, and you slander us all when you accuse us of not caring.

BUT

1. It is a perfectly reasonable position to say that other forms of rider protection, those that save lives rather than 'merely' avoiding disrupted seasons, are more worthy of research and development.
2. It is fair to assume that is a clothing solution to the issue of even minor breaks that is combatible with racing, or even leisure riding, were practical and profitable that companies would be working away at it. But if anyone thinks they have such a product, it is not in the public forum. You have been asked several times what this solution is that you are caling for and have not attempted to resppond to that challenge, and I assume (from your interest in sustaining this discussion) that you have been invested enough to search for what information might exist. So you are arguing for something that is, at best, several years from existing.

What will we "all say when pro peloton will actually start wearing protective apparel and collarbone injuries will see a substantial drop?" We'll be delighted. When and how do you think it might happen? Because without that, all you are saying is, "It would be nice if riders didn't get hurt," which is hardly material for a substantive discussion.

 

[CyclistAbi]

As for collarbone injuries. Likely the reduction in statistics will come when apparel and the dynamics of the fall will change. Lets say to instinctively sticking out a piece of apparel. On lets say a shoulder. Rather than your hand. To break the fall. But OK enough about that for now.

Lets move on and i will read the last couple of answers as reaching a minimum agreement in this area. An agreement that we would in general be delighted to see a reduction of some type of injuries. Such as the collarbone (or other). And i will read that as if in general apparel would offer more protection in some sensible way. There is no real disagreement about introducing that in the pro peloton.

There is some "nothing must be done" vibe going on. But i will contribute that to the heated debate. Not to most people actually believing that.

Said that lets move the focus from collarbones on to this then:

Page 27 - Crashes, what can be done?

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forum.cyclingnews.com

I feel that this list includes the rational proposal from all parties involved in this discussions. Sure the list imply some changes. And we all know on how in general changes are an issue. But current situation is not that great that it would imply such changes are a bad thing. Or that we will lost something. If we improve the general safety for a couple of percents.

 

[EliseeReclus]

There is some "nothing must be done" vibe going on.

Literally no-one has said or implied this, you are just inventing something to argue against. What people have done is said that your specific suggestion is not possible or practical with existing limitations in technology and presented lots of evidence to back this up.

 

[SHAD0W93]

In this vein, I suggest that we install magnets into every inch of road surface covered by any bike race, and also make cyclists apparel with similar poled magnets so that should they lose balance the magnets repel one another and they can't contact the ground. If you don't agree with this solution and want it implemented immediately then you clearly don't care about rider welfare and have no business in calling yourself a true cycling fan!

All I can imagine with this is the falling magnet getting thrown/sliding away in mid air do to the poles pushing against each other. One way for riders to save energy, use the magnets to their advantage.

As for collarbone injuries. Likely the reduction in statistics will come when apparel and the dynamics of the fall will change. Lets say to instinctively sticking out a piece of apparel. On lets say a shoulder. Rather than your hand. To break the fall. But OK enough about that for now.

So shoulder pads. Here, I will buy and ship them too you. You can ride with them for 3 weeks on one of the GT routes and tell us how it goes. We can prove and disprove everyone’s hypothesis. CNF’s own science fair.

Or just extra, extra padding on their shoulder that they then have to try and shoulder charge the ground while falling in order for it to work and they be okay.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The other thing is that beyond the heat issue, riders require flexibility and manoeuvrability that would be negatively impacted by existing padding... and you know what they need that for? To help avoid crashes. Soft padding large enough to be effective at speed will be bulky and make jostling in the bunch more likely to result in accidents, and hard padding will impede movement and make it harder to take quick evasive action when a crash does take place. It's no good reducing the number of injuries per crash if you negate that benefit by increasing the number of crashes. Notwithstanding that protecting the collarbone against a direct blow is a relative irrelevance, given the way most collarbone injuries take place.

Your argument has been that there are a lot of options to reduce injuries without negatively impacting breathability, manoeuvrability or flexibility. You used the word "plethora". I can only surmise that you therefore think the only reason that such apparel has not been introduced is laziness on the part of manufacturers. And yet, you have provided no actual ideas of your own, just said that this is the responsibility of the manufacturers. But if you cannot provide a single one of these suggestions, then how can you claim there are a "plethora" of options?

Or maybe the options that exist have been considered already - and have been found to be impractical or prohibitive in real life situations? Or the benefit provided by the apparel was considered too marginal for the disadvantages it had and was rejected by the péloton? I mean, this can be for better or for worse. Just look at the NHL and how some players resist wearing visors on their helmets, and almost none wear the 'college helmet' with the full face cage or the 'fishbowl' with a full face visor unless they are playing with an injury, even though those are demonstrably safer, just that the perceived benefit is considered too small to be worth the negative impact in terms of field of vision? Or the time-honoured comparisons of tackling and injuries in American Football vs. that of Rugby Union, a similarly violent sport played without the helmets and with much reduced padding - because the American Football players have so much more protection, they launch themselves into challenges far more recklessly and at higher speed, negating the benefit that the protective apparel provides in comparison?

 

[Armchair cyclist]

There is some "nothing must be done" vibe going on.

If you are saying that someone, or more than one person here, is saying, "avoiding injuries is less important than the traditions or appearance of the sport," that is grossly misrepresenting what has been said: no-one says lack of change is an imperative. Such an accusation should be retracted immediately.

I'm not sure why you cannot consent to the overwhelming weight of opinion that an alternative that is not practical is not a solution. Maybe there are linguistic comprehension issues here

 

[Armchair cyclist]

Anyway, moving on the science fiction of bone-protecting clothing to what actually can be done, per the thread title.

Today's Giro stage finish: does anybody here think they can draw a more sensible line for 160 speeding cyclists to take from the 4km marker to the finish line (making the route slightly shorter is permissible)? Does anybody consider a 120 degre corner with 800m to go to be sensible in a sprint stage? Indeed, can anyone perceive of a reason for putting it there that is not about the 'thrill' of artificially constucted danger? We do not need that sort of cheap thrill to enjoy our sport.

With credit to @Eshnar

Obviously, I hope everyone sails around those bends safely, but if there are injuries (or disruption to GC chances in the case of the first of these) at 4km-3.5km to go, at 1.3km or at 800m, then the blame seems to belong squarely at the door of the route designers.

 

[EliseeReclus]

It's also not exactly a clear or sweeping bend either...

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[wansteadimp]

The optimist in me would like to think because the turns will reduce the top end speed of the sprint making any crash less damaging, the cynic in me suspects its all to do with €€€€

 

[noob]

Can we just say that giro 2022 must have done something amazing in regards to crashes as there's no hospitalization due to any crash so far. (The cork issue is also fixed and won't happen again.)

 

[CyclistAbi]

That time of the year and time to soft bump this thread again. A nice prologue in the form of stage 1. Only a couple of cyclist sliding on wet roads. I took notice and have seen some tearing of the apparel. That could hence improve.

In addition i read that the organizers switched the direction of the cobbled stage. Due to safety concerns in regards to road furniture. There is that i guess. If people are willing things can get done.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That time of the year and time to soft bump this thread again. A nice prologue in the form of stage 1. Only a couple of cyclist sliding on wet roads. I took notice and have seen some tearing of the apparel. That could hence improve.

In addition i read that the organizers switched the direction of the cobbled stage. Due to safety concerns in regards to road furniture. There is that i guess. If people are willing things can get done.

How is your R&D project going?

 

[CyclistAbi]

How is your R&D project going?

OK. I will take a look. As the Tour will be long-ish anyway.

 

[SHAD0W93]

That time of the year and time to soft bump this thread again. A nice prologue in the form of stage 1. Only a couple of cyclist sliding on wet roads. I took notice and have seen some tearing of the apparel. That could hence improve.

In addition i read that the organizers switched the direction of the cobbled stage. Due to safety concerns in regards to road furniture. There is that i guess. If people are willing things can get done.

Wet roads helps them slide so less likely to tear their apparel.

 

[Cookster15]

I didn't read this thread before. But on shoulder pads, they might work in NFL but those guys whilst very heavy and powerful are not hitting each other at 60+km/h with sharp objects like bikes.

On tearing apparel, we are talking about road rash which is very painful and can lead to infection but not deep tissue injuries or broken bones which are more serious. Helmets aside, the laws of physics means apparel can't make any significant difference to deep tissue injuries or broken bones. And overheating and dehydration can be more dangerous than crashing on hot mountainous stages. Maybe eye protection is worth discussing?

Prevention is better than cure so measures like actually enforcing heavy penalties for dangerous riding and better design of stages to reduce hazards in the closing kilometers when teams are driving the lead-outs through narrow streets and/or median strips are the best form of prevention. Also needs to be better policing of team cars.