Crashes, what can be done?

[Cookster15]

I agree. I have maintained this all along. Berniece is pushing that the solution is flashing lights to indicate potential hazards ahead.

Which just coincidentally happens to be the product sold by the company that apparently told Jonas Vingegaard and the Itzulia organisers all about the dangers of that descent - before the route was even announced - and then approached Benji Naesen to tell them all about how they crunched all the data and the solution to every problem in cycling is to buy their product.

Which Benji then posted as a 'gotcha' to make Twitter get angry at the race organisers because Benji is both a complete populist tool who will ride the wave of whatever will get him likes on his tweets, and somebody who was literally on the payroll of the team whose boss was most disadvantaged by the crashes in the last couple of weeks (and lied about his objectivity too), not realising that his post also implied that Vingegaard must have ignored the advices too.

Benji becoming a voice that people pay attention to regarding cycling is a bit like giving somebody who's good at Madden and only cares about one franchise a job as a Superbowl pundit.

Sorry to wade in on this.

My 2cents worth: There is no single solution. It will be a range of measures. Such as hay bales, warnings on dangerous corners or maybe fines and time penalties at the discretion of the race commissaires when riders ignore the warnings? Of course bike racers go full gas all the time. What regulates rider speed is their legs, skills and courage - and neutral sections.

But this subject has the potential to be a slippery slope. What if mountain descents become neutral?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Maybe the problem is as simple as too many riders and too little road. When you see teams lined up with 3 guys working to keep their team leader at the front with minimal power waste on the part of the team leader, and you notice that 5 or 6 such lineups take up the entire width of the road. Then consider there are probably 10-15 other teams that want to be in that same exact position, and will be as soon as they can push their way in, and there is still 40-50 kilometers to go, there could be problems. Maybe a limit of 20 five rider teams would reduce the congestion and need to be at the front all the time? At least it might make teams spend their resources more wisely, rather than 2 or 3 riders designated to go balls out at all times to keep the leader well positioned, waiting to play the cards might come back into style.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Sorry to wade in on this.

My 2cents worth: There is no single solution. It will be a range of measures. Such as hay bales, warnings on dangerous corners or maybe fines and time penalties at the discretion of the race commissaires when riders ignore the warnings? Of course bike racers go full gas all the time. What regulates rider speed is their legs, skills and courage - and neutral sections.

But this subject has the potential to be a slippery slope. What if mountain descents become neutral?

The problem is that there is a certain subset of riders who believe that courage shouldn't be a part of it: that the course is just there for them to apply effort dosages as applicable, like it's PCM. We saw this from the Jorgenson / chicane discussion, where the idea that riders could just ride slower or take fewer risks never occurred to him, because riders apparently can't make those decisions for themselves.

 

[Cookster15]

The problem is that there is a certain subset of riders who believe that courage shouldn't be a part of it: that the course is just there for them to apply effort dosages as applicable, like it's PCM. We saw this from the Jorgenson / chicane discussion, where the idea that riders could just ride slower or take fewer risks never occurred to him, because riders apparently can't make those decisions for themselves.

Yes, courage is a part of the sport - particularly at the professional level. But riders will go as hard as their legs, courage and skills allow. There needs to be clear rules (UCI) and an independent authority for safety - these are the commissaires.

If the UCI requires race organizers to scout routes, identify dangerous corners or road imperfections beforehand and then put marshals waving flags at those points you have enough for the commissaires to enforce. Then if riders ignore the warnings they are subject to a fine or time penalty. My 2C.

 

[Hugh Januss]

The problem is that there is a certain subset of riders who believe that courage shouldn't be a part of it: that the course is just there for them to apply effort dosages as applicable, like it's PCM. We saw this from the Jorgenson / chicane discussion, where the idea that riders could just ride slower or take fewer risks never occurred to him, because riders apparently can't make those decisions for themselves.

Except that the rider who slows or hesitates is just displaced by others willing to take the risk. It's possible to "caution" oneself right out of the pro peleton. I think the riders are just asking that the UCI and race organizers give them courses where the risk involved is mostly limited to lost skin and not flying off a mountain. Arenberg with it's position on the course is not a place where you can just ride slower and take fewer risks if you want to have a chance of winning. They hit it at a full sprint for position and at a speed probably 20kph higher than can be maintained across it, and just hope for the best.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yes, courage is a part of the sport - particularly at the professional level. But riders will go as hard as their legs, courage and skills allow. There needs to be clear rules (UCI) and an independent authority for safety - these are the commissaires.

If the UCI requires race organizers to scout routes, identify dangerous corners or road imperfections beforehand and then put marshals waving flags at those points you have enough for the commissaires to enforce. Then if riders ignore the warnings they are subject to a fine or time penalty. My 2C.

My 2¢ is that if you're riding the Tour of the Basque Country, you ought to be aware that there are inconsistent mountain roads in that part of the world. It's just a fact of life there. Riders need to be aware that riding down roads the way you would on a fully-consistent gradient with wide, sweeping curves and pristine, billiard-table-smooth tarmac that would make Bavarianrider swoon in appreciation is simply not possible.

To me, complaining about inconsistent mountain roads in the Basque country is like complaining about poor road surfaces in Belgium or about road furniture in the Netherlands. It's just something that comes with the territory and by entering the Itzulia you are tacitly acknowledging that risk.

 

[Nick2413]

Yes, courage is a part of the sport - particularly at the professional level. But riders will go as hard as their legs, courage and skills allow. There needs to be clear rules (UCI) and an independent authority for safety - these are the commissaires.

If the UCI requires race organizers to scout routes, identify dangerous corners or road imperfections beforehand and then put marshals waving flags at those points you have enough for the commissaires to enforce. Then if riders ignore the warnings they are subject to a fine or time penalty. My 2C.

What constitutes ignoring warnings though? Fines and penalties get into messy territory and slippery slopes. Giving the riders better warning of particularly dangerous areas is key, and is probably the most actionable idea. But ultimately almost every part of a bike race is dangerous, watching Itzulia today everything looked equally dangerous whether barricaded or not imo, plus they had tons of marshalls and signs out there; so reducing the frequency of crashes is probably the best that can be done.

 

[houtdffan]

what is the uci talking about with a yellow and red card system?

Just start handing out 10 minute time penalties for being dumb (i.e. dangerous weaving and or contact with others)

 

[Oldermanish]

Maybe the problem is as simple as too many riders and too little road. When you see teams lined up with 3 guys working to keep their team leader at the front with minimal power waste on the part of the team leader, and you notice that 5 or 6 such lineups take up the entire width of the road. Then consider there are probably 10-15 other teams that want to be in that same exact position, and will be as soon as they can push their way in, and there is still 40-50 kilometers to go, there could be problems. Maybe a limit of 20 five rider teams would reduce the congestion and need to be at the front all the time? At least it might make teams spend their resources more wisely, rather than 2 or 3 riders designated to go balls out at all times to keep the leader well positioned, waiting to play the cards might come back into style.

Yes and no about limiting the number of riders. If there aren't some serious and somewhat sacrificial pacemakers the speed is slow enough the pack is still gutter to gutter. You end up with the same problem that you see in amateur races that don't go fast enough. Eventually someone is gonna screw up and touch wheels. It isn't any one solution but putting hay bales over risks like the broken-bone theme park in Itzulia is cheap and recognizable.

 

[Berniece]

Berniece, did you buy shares in that company that was shilling their wares to Benji? You seem to be barracking hard for their products even though they would have done absolutely zero to prevent the accident we saw this week bearing in mind it wasn't an especially dangerous corner and the organisers already had a sign up for it.

Maybe I am Benji? 🤔 but no I have no shares in any company that does anything solely and directly cycling.

I’m just advocating for more safety. More signalling, more safety nets, more secure environments. I disagree that the current signage was enough, since it has a different meaning. Sharp corner is not the same as bumps in the corner.

 

[saunaking]

Pro cycling is fine as it is. Yes, small improvements can be made, motly by fixing oversights like MAAAAAYBE there should have been bales or some other mitigating measure in the basque crash descent. But that was not an organizer failure. It was a '*** happens' or bad luck or part of the sport occurrence.
It sucks, but this is the sport. A beautiful sport that can easily get watered down to crap

 

[fbjim]

can we all just blame team sky for starting the whole "you have to always be on the front" thing

 

[Rob5091]

Maybe I am Benji? 🤔 but no I have no shares in any company that does anything solely and directly cycling.

I’m just advocating for more safety. More signalling, more safety nets, more secure environments. I disagree that the current signage was enough, since it has a different meaning. Sharp corner is not the same as bumps in the corner.

This is I suppose, the correct sign to have as well, but the problem is you would have it everywhere in certain parts of Europe, so it would become meaningsless.

 

[Berniece]

This is I suppose, the correct sign to have as well, but the problem is you would have it everywhere in certain parts of Europe, so it would become meaningsless.

Those are for cars, I mean signage only during the race for the riders. A car wouldn’t have any issues with some roots underneath the road like here.

 

[Extinction]

Pro cycling is fine as it is. Yes, small improvements can be made, motly by fixing oversights like MAAAAAYBE there should have been bales or some other mitigating measure in the basque crash descent. But that was not an organizer failure. It was a '*** happens' or bad luck or part of the sport occurrence.
It sucks, but this is the sport. A beautiful sport that can easily get watered down to crap

We can say things are fine, but then there is the impact losing premere stars to such crashes has on viewership. The next races in which they were supposed to compete will lose a share of their audience, among those who only would watch because a certain rider was participating (or because a certain confrontation between riders was gonna happen). Cycling cannot afford this, the sponsors will be livid, commercial funds will decline as people turn away. Think of how devastating the situation is for Soudal and Visma right now. So I think it's significant and that the status quo isn't good enough anymore. The sport has changed and at all levels. The equipment, nutrition and training regimes yield high performances, which means everything is faster. From the junior level they are training and living like pros (which is not good). The pros, I'm sorry to say, are often racing like idiots, foolishly taking too much high risk, but this is driven by the pressure put on them to always be performing at the highest level, team leader and domestique alike. Riders have become enslaved to tech and data, at the expense of losing common sense, race instinct and craft. At the same time, the race organizations manage affairs as if the sport is the same as it was 30 years ago. I think, therefore, what should happen is that teams and organizers should work together to come up with ways to assess courses and develop a better system to signal danger spots and provide the necessary heads-ups, because evidently this generation of riders needs such advanced warning more than those in the past.

 

[Rob5091]

Prudhomme talks yellow and red cards ...
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...ion-of-yellow-and-red-cards-system-in-cycling

The Frenchman is clear about the system with yellow and red cards. "We have already thought about it very carefully and you have to keep thinking about how you can better protect the riders. In general the speed of the riders is much too high. New talents, who are just entering cycling, are getting younger and younger, but they lack the years of experience in the peloton and the habit of respecting the rules.

Sounds like another questionable proposal. If descending like a mad man to win at Milan San Remo is dangerous then will the winner get disqualified afterwards? Would Pidcock get disqualiifed for his Tour stage win? There already is a system in place for guys who ride on pavements, bike paths etc so I don't see what this would add.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Maybe I am Benji? 🤔 but no I have no shares in any company that does anything solely and directly cycling.

I’m just advocating for more safety. More signalling, more safety nets, more secure environments. I disagree that the current signage was enough, since it has a different meaning. Sharp corner is not the same as bumps in the corner.

Well, it would explain a lot. Like your propensity to act as a mouthpiece for anything Plugge suggests in the Breakaway Cycling League thread.

 

[Berniece]

Well, it would explain a lot. Like your propensity to act as a mouthpiece for anything Plugge suggests in the Breakaway Cycling League thread.

Haha, also not true. I’m saying the business model is bad at the moment and I’m open to changes and would like to see what they propose with ONE cycling.

My apologies if I don’t automatically shoot down any form of change. I prefer to keep an open mind.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Haha, also not true. I’m saying the business model is bad at the moment and I’m open to changes and would like to see what they propose with ONE cycling.

My apologies if I don’t automatically shoot down any form of change. I prefer to keep an open mind.

You didn't "prefer to keep an open mind", you actively shut down any criticism and stated that because you didn't like ASO, any change was welcome regardless of what it was.

You also stated that the proposals never included things that were heavily implied that were perceived as bad, and then when they turned out to include those very things, tried to backtrack that you never said it, but that those things were good anyway.

 

[Divergence]

There was a good suggestion by a pro rider to limit the max gear ratio. This will allow for more freewheeling and slower speeds on descends. I believe this to be a good proposal.
That being said, I see a lot of dumb risk prone individuals on some amateur races that I take part in. The moment some of these overweight (east Henburry cycling club) guys see a closed road and a little ramp down they send it like there is not tomorrow. And they are doing it for naught (maybe just adrenaline idk). I am writing this to point out that when big money and fame is a stake, there will be individuals willing to take riding a bike beyond the limit and there is little that could be done.

It is quite intractable to have padding on every corner and even that might not prevent serious injuries. Maybe having artificial chicanes before some dangerous curves could be an option but I am not sure about this.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It is quite intractable to have padding on every corner and even that might not prevent serious injuries. Maybe having artificial chicanes before some dangerous curves could be an option but I am not sure about this.

The biggest concern there would be that most dangerous curves are likely to be on roads that are not wide enough to accommodate the artificial chicane, unless there's a conveniently located passing place for them to introduce a bus-stop style chicane like they have in motorsports sometimes, like in Watkins Glen or the old version at Spa.

 

[fbjim]

You are also causing obvious safety issues by introducing chicanes which necessitate tight turns in the first place.

You don't need full air-barrier safety fencing on every turn but on descents, I think it would be reasonable to ask for some standards on the type of obstacles that may require protection (like the culvert, or some bridge abutments).

 

[Berniece]

Stated that because you didn't like ASO, any change was welcome regardless of what it was.

Quote me saying this

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Quote me saying this

I dislike ASO, and I dislike the current business model, so I’m all for a change when it comes to that.

From https://forum.cyclingnews.com/threa...competitive-league.39320/page-10#post-2954778

 

[Berniece]

From https://forum.cyclingnews.com/threa...competitive-league.39320/page-10#post-2954778

How is that being pro any change against ASO? It’s about improving the business model.