Crashes, what can be done?

[Ricco']

"Logic" indeed.

Same logic:
- Ban savage rock gardens in XCO because 13 y.o. can also try them;
- Limit motorcycle racing to 120 km/h maximum because amateurs may try go over those speeds (exception to Monaco GP, where speed limit would be 30km/h).

And honestly, if there were kids doing supertuck in racing, that was caused either by:
a) lack of judgement and oversight from their parents/tutors to warn them of the risks;
b) unethical cycling team staff that should be prevented from working with youngsters if they condone that behavior during practices/races

As it's fun to watch 10m platform divers doing triple backflips but knowing that I would end up in hospital or in the graveyard if I tried to do that, a sane person would have presence of mind to know that doing the supertuck going down a hill 80km/h in open traffic would be a negligent action.

 

[Red Rick]

Same logic:
- Ban savage rock gardens in XCO because 13 y.o. can also try them;
- Limit motorcycle racing to 120 km/h maximum because amateurs may try go over those speeds (exception to Monaco GP, where speed limit would be 30km/h).

And honestly, if there were kids doing supertuck in racing, that was caused either by:
a) lack of judgement and oversight from their parents/tutors to warn them of the risks;
b) unethical cycling team staff that should be prevented from working with youngsters if they condone that behavior during practices/races

As it's fun to watch 10m platform divers doing triple backflips but knowing that I would end up in hospital or in the graveyard if I tried to do that, a sane person would have presence of mind to know that doing the supertuck going down a hill 80km/h in open traffic would be a negligent action.

I mean I do a supertuck down every bridge out of spite at this point

 

[janraaskalt]

There might have been country-based mandatory helmet use before then, but crazy that it took UCI a decade to realise that "Hmm... these people are on to something. Maybe we should make helmet use mandatory everywhere."

Maybe it's about different helmets? The current ones after Kivilev and the old-fashioned ones earlier?

 

[Danskebjerge]

And not even knowing where everyone was the whole time, simply someone realising earlier that she hadn't finished.

I've never heard of a system that enables the organizers to keep track of each rider constantly during a race. It could be done, but the incident was to my knowledge the first ever in the history of cycling or at least extremely rare. Implementing a solution to a non-existing problem (which this was until this week) would be unusual.

A rider crashing without others seeing it - it happens.

A rider skidding off a road and disappearing into the woods - it happens.

A rider left unconscious after a crash - it happens.

But all these things happening at the same time - it's extremely unfortunate.

 

[Extinction]

Cycling began as a means to go faster over longer distances than otherwise possible (for example, the horse). In fact, the first bikes were refered to in an equine way. It's time for a new horse, it was said, when the bike was old. We've gone well beyond this.

Same logic:
- Ban savage rock gardens in XCO because 13 y.o. can also try them;
- Limit motorcycle racing to 120 km/h maximum because amateurs may try go over those speeds (exception to Monaco GP, where speed limit would be 30km/h).

And honestly, if there were kids doing supertuck in racing, that was caused either by:
a) lack of judgement and oversight from their parents/tutors to warn them of the risks;
b) unethical cycling team staff that should be prevented from working with youngsters if they condone that behavior during practices/races

As it's fun to watch 10m platform divers doing triple backflips but knowing that I would end up in hospital or in the graveyard if I tried to do that, a sane person would have presence of mind to know that doing the supertuck going down a hill 80km/h in open traffic would be a negligent action.

At 15 years-old you imitate the pros, because they are the role models. Now one should soon realize their limits and if you don't bad stuff can happen. Hopefully most come to terms with their limitations, either through fear or an accident without consequence. But you have to push yourself to find out and the cream keeps rising to the top. It's the nature of things. But for any aspiring cyclist, truly invested in the process, you have to go through the initiation. Otherwise it's better to just enjoy the scenery.

 

[Ricco']

At 15 years-old you imitate the pros, because they are the role models.

Of course, but at that age they should have guidance to tell them their limits, what they can imitate and what they can not. I'm not a father, but if I was, I can't imagine myself letting my kids of that age going alone in rides without my or other adult supervision, dealing with traffic.

And as a sports coach of 11-14 y.o. on another sport, they often want to do what they see on the television, but specially dealing with those ages, a responsible coach must have the authority to tell what's not allowed to do and exercise that authority.

For instance, in my sport, almost every kid sees an olympic bar and already asks when they are going to do that and start lifing weights. First thing a coach should do is tell them they are not allowed near those weights until they are 3 or 4 years older. Unfortunately, there are still many coaches who squeeze every ounce of those kids in this early ages, leaving them with all kinds of knee and back problems when they reach full maturity.

 

[RedheadDane]

I've never heard of a system that enables the organizers to keep track of each rider constantly during a race.

I'm not talking about during the race; I'm talking after.
They did an entire other race - and maybe started another - before she was found.

 

[Danskebjerge]

I'm not talking about during the race; I'm talking after.
They did an entire other race - and maybe started another - before she was found.

I haven't seen any official report saying that nobody searched for her after the race. Do we have any evidence about this?

 

[Extinction]

Of course, but at that age they should have guidance to tell them their limits, what they can imitate and what they can not. I'm not a father, but if I was, I can't imagine myself letting my kids of that age going alone in rides without my or other adult supervision, dealing with traffic.

And as a sports coach of 11-14 y.o. on another sport, they often want to do what they see on the television, but specially dealing with those ages, a responsible coach must have the authority to tell what's not allowed to do and exercise that authority.

For instance, in my sport, almost every kid sees an olympic bar and already asks when they are going to do that and start lifing weights. First thing a coach should do is tell them they are not allowed near those weights until they are 3 or 4 years older. Unfortunately, there are still many coaches who squeeze every ounce of those kids in this early ages, leaving them with all kinds of knee and back problems when they reach full maturity.

We had no guidance. Nobody told us how to descend a mountain. We just went down at the limit trying not to get dropped. Otherwise there was no point, but we were carefree.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Still, would we loose out on any good racing with a speed limit of 80 km/h on descents? You can still make the difference on technical ones, but the highspeed descents with too little reaction time (if you make a mistake) are no longer there.

Also, cyclists (mainly in the men's pro peloton) are the ones fighting for position and drilling descents at every turn with 90kms to go, with almost zero benefit. If they can't think for themselfs and have to do what a DS screams into their ear than we should just get rid of team radios and only have neutral race radios instead. You kinda have to force them to be more responsable, because they will be the ones taking stupid risks (and making mistakes) only to blame everyone else afterwards. They mostly act like children and shouldn't make their own rules/make the important decisions.

 

[ashhutch1997]

A lot of devices (helmets, bike computers, etc.) have now crash detectors that can send distress signals to emergency contacts in case of a fall. Don't think it will be hard, at least in major events like World Tour races and World Championships, to have this kind of devices that relay a warning sign to race control or team car in case of a fall.

Wasn't this how Steven de Jongh (I believe) as found and presumably saved when he fell out during a alone ride a few years ago?

The incident detector on my Garmin is useless. It goes off when I stop at a junction, but when I crash in a race it never goes off.

 

[Netserk]

Still, would we loose out on any good racing with a speed limit of 80 km/h on descents?

How do you enforce it (how much and for how long do you need to go above the limit to be DSQ'ed)? How practical is it for the rider to keep braking while closely monitoring his speed to ensure that he goes to the limit?

 

[Red Rick]

Still, would we loose out on any good racing with a speed limit of 80 km/h on descents?

Yes.

Also, how the hell do you wanna enforce it?

 

[Extinction]

Still, would we loose out on any good racing with a speed limit of 80 km/h on descents? You can still make the difference on technical ones, but the highspeed descents with too little reaction time (if you make a mistake) are no longer there.

Also, cyclists (mainly in the men's pro peloton) are the ones fighting for position and drilling descents at every turn with 90kms to go, with almost zero benefit. If they can't think for themselfs and have to do what a DS screams into their ear than we should just get rid of team radios and only have neutral race radios instead. You kinda have to force them to be more responsable, because they will be the ones taking stupid risks (and making mistakes) only to blame everyone else afterwards. They mostly act like children and shouldn't make their own rules/make the important decisions.

You could be on to something, get the ds/staff out of their ears during the race and perhaps the presure would ease and prevent then from taking eccessive risks.

 

[Mayomaniac]

How do you enforce it (how much and for how long do you need to go above the limit to be DSQ'ed)? How practical is it for the rider to keep braking while closely monitoring his speed to ensure that he goes to the limit?

It was a bit of a provocant question, because most fatal crashes actually seem to happen on highspeed descents and not on technical ones that are deemed to be dangerous.

 

[rallybanana]

I just remember rider protests over being made to ride with a helment in like 1993. But you may be correct that compulsory helmets didn't actually take effect until 2003.

UCI introduced a compulsory helmet rule in 1991 but the riders protested

VeloNews Archive: Helmets an issue at Paris-Nice in '91

The tragic death of Andrei Kivilev at this year’s Paris-Nice is not thefirst time that helmets – specifically, whether pros should be requiredto wear them as a safety measure – have been an issue at the race. As Rupert Guinness noted in his coverage of the 1991 Paris-Nice, publishedin the April...

velo.outsideonline.com

 

[Netserk]

It was a bit of a provocant question, because most fatal crashes actually seem to happen on highspeed descents and not on technical ones that are deemed to be dangerous.

It makes sense to regulate route and equipment to ensure lower speeds--but unlike with cars, it's hard to imagine a speed-limit that would work in cycling.

While I don't think it's politically feasible, it could have a real impact to mandate slower wheels (and restrict gears).

 

[Nick2413]

Max speed limit is irrelevant, just give them slower bikes, easiest solution and still allows full gas racing. Anything that involves riders having to actively slow themselves down or be moto paced is a non starter.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

What kind of bike will slow riders down without looking impractical and unprofessional though? Will it be a 90s type of bike?

 

[Extinction]

It was a bit of a provocant question, because most fatal crashes actually seem to happen on highspeed descents and not on technical ones that are deemed to be dangerous.

Accept if you are Wouter Weylandt. Point is you can die at any moment on a bike.

 

[Oldermanish]

It was a bit of a provocant question, because most fatal crashes actually seem to happen on highspeed descents and not on technical ones that are deemed to be dangerous.

And there is usually rider error involved; particularly in group descents where everyone should be able to see the best line to take. I say this without seeing any part of the race so I don't intend any opinion on this tragic situation.

 

[noob]

I just don't understand how anyone can allow people without a fully grown brain to be in this sport. Junior racing and riders very young should be banned or at least extremely strictly regulated before anything else should be banned.

And punish riders for crashing if you believe it's their fault. Then you get more responsible racing.

Not that anyone would ever want that.

 

[RedheadDane]

Junior racing and riders very young should be banned or at least extremely strictly regulated before anything else should be banned.

A lot of the reasons given for Roglic's tendency to crash is the fact that he didn't practice from an earlier age.

 

[noob]

A lot of the reasons given for Roglic's tendency to crash is the fact that he didn't practice from an earlier age.

I know. But I don't neccessarily agree. He was almost dead from ski jumping for the reason he's Roglic imo. So he could just as well have died had he been cycling younger. It's in his DNA to take risks due to whatever brain chemistry he has. But when he's older he's old enough to at least know and calculate the risks. Young people literally can't do that. Or at least very rarely.

Learning when young is one thing; doing the most risky things when young is another.

Also since I happen to be an Almeida fan I see another side of the coin; the ridicule of a slow descender. Anyone who ridicules a guy like Almeida for his descending have zero say about safety in sport imnsho. Because he goes slow because of risk aversion. And fans hates that!

That has told me people don't want to see safe riding. They want to see the Mohorics of the world go ape shxit.

But at least Mohoric is old enough to be somewhat held responsible.

 

[Lequack]

Key questions left unanswered by UCI and David Lappartient after Muriel Furrer's death at Zurich Worlds​

UCI president's press conference in aftermath of fatal crash marked by digressions and deflections

Key questions left unanswered by UCI and David Lappartient after Muriel Furrer's death at Zurich Worlds

UCI president's press conference in aftermath of fatal crash marked by digressions and deflections

www.cyclingnews.com