Crashes, what can be done?

[Extinction]

Well said, let’s see if UCI will actually follow and implement SafeR guidelines.

They had better do. I'm decidedly less interested now in watching those races in which battles amongst the Bigs were expected. It's like those races have been castrated.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So it's race organisers' responsibility to ensure safe conditions in training too, Jim?! What do Froome and Bernal's injuries have to do with the recent spate of racing issues?

The other thing is, Jim Ratcliffe is a billionaire. A billionaire who backed the plan which called for teams to pocket more money at the expense of race organisers - but wants the UCI and the race organisers to foot the bill for improvements in safety at the same time as claiming a bigger piece of the pie - and off the back of some high profile incidents caused by the riders not taking due care and respecting the roads they were riding on.

I appreciate that these big crashes and loss of big names hurt his investment, but they hurt the race organisers for whom these kinds of athletes are part of their sale proposition and advertising too, not to mention that if they do earn themselves a reputation (like the Tour de Pologne or the Scheldeprijs) for regular high levels of crashes, then riders become less willing to participate in their races.

 

[Red Rick]

So it's race organisers' responsibility to ensure safe conditions in training too, Jim?! What do Froome and Bernal's injuries have to do with the recent spate of racing issues?

The other thing is, Jim Ratcliffe is a billionaire. A billionaire who backed the plan which called for teams to pocket more money at the expense of race organisers - but wants the UCI and the race organisers to foot the bill for improvements in safety at the same time as claiming a bigger piece of the pie - and off the back of some high profile incidents caused by the riders not taking due care and respecting the roads they were riding on.

I appreciate that these big crashes and loss of big names hurt his investment, but they hurt the race organisers for whom these kinds of athletes are part of their sale proposition and advertising too, not to mention that if they do earn themselves a reputation (like the Tour de Pologne or the Scheldeprijs) for regular high levels of crashes, then riders become less willing to participate in their races.

"I'm sorry I'm too busy buying Manchester United, you fix it with a few volunteers"

 

[jmdirt]

I feel more comfortable descending on the hoods, because my torso-armreach, with frame geometry, isn't so great. What should I do? Go against a natural inclination? When I listen to the same old advice, I feel less in control. I've tried to go into the drops, but then, invariably, return to the hoods.🤹

Get a different frame, a different stem, different bars...

OOPs, I saw your second post that indicates you are concerned with how propper fit would look.

 

[staubsauger]

Ratcliffe should just sell the team or close it down.

Ineos is a bad joke compared to what it has been before anyway!

 

[kingjr]

[content deleted]

"appreciate" in this case means "understand (a situation) fully; grasp the full implications of."

 

[Netserk]

Some questions are rather answers.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Radcliffe, the billionaire with zero knowledge of the situation as proven by the citation of Froome and Bernal and his interview with Thomas where he sounded utterly clueless, sees the way the crowd is going, rushes to the front and shouts 'Follow me!'.

He is a worm of a man desperate for people to think of Man United and Cycling when they hear the term 'Ineos', but all he is known for round here is sh*t 4x4s, trying to carry on the drilling after earthquakes on Preston New Road and moving jobs to France after shilling for Brexit. I preferred Murdoch, at least the supervillain lair he operated from was in full view.

 

[samhocking]

So it's race organisers' responsibility to ensure safe conditions in training too, Jim?! What do Froome and Bernal's injuries have to do with the recent spate of racing issues?

The other thing is, Jim Ratcliffe is a billionaire. A billionaire who backed the plan which called for teams to pocket more money at the expense of race organisers - but wants the UCI and the race organisers to foot the bill for improvements in safety at the same time as claiming a bigger piece of the pie - and off the back of some high profile incidents caused by the riders not taking due care and respecting the roads they were riding on.

I appreciate that these big crashes and loss of big names hurt his investment, but they hurt the race organisers for whom these kinds of athletes are part of their sale proposition and advertising too, not to mention that if they do earn themselves a reputation (like the Tour de Pologne or the Scheldeprijs) for regular high levels of crashes, then riders become less willing to participate in their races.

Ratcliffe is on exactly the same page as Plugge and most other team owners, being a billionaire like Ratcliffe or only a millionaire like Plugge makes no difference, both are on exactly the same page on why something has to be done. F1 used to have this problem where drivers would be dead or injured before the championship even got half way though. Cycling is in that state too, there's a strong possibility NO top GT rider will survive to July and that is not good for us the fans, which in turn cannot be good for a 100% sponsorship model and F1 was also largely a 100% sponsorship model in the dark days until live TV revenue, Senna's death etc.

 

[RedheadDane]

What do Froome and Bernal's injuries have to do with the recent spate of racing issues?

Assuming you mean Froome's big 2019 injuries, and not his recent broken wrist.

I suppose you could argue that it couldn't have happened during the actual stage, as opposed to during recon, and it still wouldn't have been the organisers' fault; not like they can control the wind.
Of course, you could then also argue that the organisers should have put some padding on that wall, like the Basque organisers should have put some padding on that ditch. However, I'd say it's a more likely logical conclusion to draw that "Riders could crash in this corner, and that ditch looks like it could hurt!" than "A rider might get randomly blown off his bike and into that wall."

 

[roundabout]

F1 teams got first sponsorships sometime in the late 60's, so you are wrong, Sam.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So it's race organisers' responsibility to ensure safe conditions in training too, Jim?! What do Froome and Bernal's injuries have to do with the recent spate of racing issues?

Ratcliffe is on exactly the same page as Plugge and most other team owners, being a billionaire like Ratcliffe or only a millionaire like Plugge makes no difference, both are on exactly the same page on why something has to be done. F1 used to have this problem where drivers would be dead or injured before the championship even got half way though. Cycling is in that state too, there's a strong possibility NO top GT rider will survive to July and that is not good for us the fans, which in turn cannot be good for a 100% sponsorship model and F1 was also largely a 100% sponsorship model in the dark days until live TV revenue, Senna's death etc.

A page that says "it's everybody's responsibility except the teams, even though most of the recent major crashes have been more the result of team instructions and rider behaviours than anything else".

And a page that says "race organisers shouldn't get to keep money, it should be given to the teams" at the same time as saying "race organisers need to spend more money so that our riders don't have to do crazy things like read the road". It is true that races depend on riders for their value proposition, but it's equally true that without races to compete in, the riders hold no value.

But if they drive all organisers outside of ASO, RCS and Flanders Classics to the wall, they can implement their "all money to the teams" system and sell the calendar to the oil-rich dictatorships they want to and not have to worry about racing on roads that have hazards such as fans on them. It's all part of the propaganda offensive for the New Cycling, the same revolution that has been mooted several times before. Manoeuvring the pieces into place.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Assuming you mean Froome's big 2019 injuries, and not his recent broken wrist.

I suppose you could argue that it couldn't have happened during the actual stage, as opposed to during recon, and it still wouldn't have been the organisers' fault; not like they can control the wind.
Of course, you could then also argue that the organisers should have put some padding on that wall, like the Basque organisers should have put some padding on that ditch. However, I'd say it's a more likely logical conclusion to draw that "Riders could crash in this corner, and that ditch looks like it could hurt!" than "A rider might get randomly blown off his bike and into that wall."

Ratcliffe specified incidents that had been detrimental to the Ineos team when he mentioned Froome and Bernal, so he can't have been referring to the recent injury since Froome hasn't been racing for Sky/Ineos in years.

 

[Berniece]

A page that says "it's everybody's responsibility except the teams, even though most of the recent major crashes have been more the result of team instructions and rider behaviours than anything else".

That’s your opinion.

 

[samhocking]

F1 teams got first sponsorships sometime in the late 60's, so you are wrong, Sam.

F1 existed largely the same as cycling did until the 60s too you'll find. The bike manufactures like Peugeot, Alcyon or Binachi sponsored works cycling teams just as the car manufactures like Bugatti, Alfa, Peugeot sponsored works motor racing teams. TV came in around 60 and 70s and visible corporate sponsorship came in, but it was still sponsorship when a rider/driver crossed the line with Peugeot on their jersey in the 20s as it is with Jumbo on their jersey in the 2020's 100 years later, The difference is, cycling still has a 100% sponsorship model and very little safety improvement, F1 doesn't, the 'works' nature of running a team is replaced by sponsorship and TV revenue, driver death replaced with driver safety.

 

[samhocking]

A page that says "it's everybody's responsibility except the teams, even though most of the recent major crashes have been more the result of team instructions and rider behaviours than anything else".

And a page that says "race organisers shouldn't get to keep money, it should be given to the teams" at the same time as saying "race organisers need to spend more money so that our riders don't have to do crazy things like read the road". It is true that races depend on riders for their value proposition, but it's equally true that without races to compete in, the riders hold no value.

But if they drive all organisers outside of ASO, RCS and Flanders Classics to the wall, they can implement their "all money to the teams" system and sell the calendar to the oil-rich dictatorships they want to and not have to worry about racing on roads that have hazards such as fans on them. It's all part of the propaganda offensive for the New Cycling, the same revolution that has been mooted several times before. Manoeuvring the pieces into place.

I don't think Plugge or Ratcliffe are particularly using this as argument for onecycling, after all Jumbo's Jaap Van Hulten is now heading up SafeR for the teams and there's not an angle of onecycling to it afaikt? End of the day cycling exists with a model where you can potentially have no top rider racing the top event or at it's worse a situation where a team like Jumbo might not return a single penny of investment if their top riders are all in hospital before they hit Le Tour. As Plugge said this week "You have to protect your people but also think about the business. This is harmful to our sport".
I'm not sure you could blame Plugge's teams for what has happened to Wout and Vingo etc. I mean, sure, the riders are instructed to race at the front but even that is as much a team instruction about safety as it is about winning strategy. One crash could theoretically cause Jumbo to fold because only the riders give ROI to the sponsor, not the race organisers, not TV and not the UCI.

 

[Camino]

I raced old school, 5 cog freewheels, friction down tube shifters, caliper brakes, etc. smaller amateur fields. Since then have watched pro races on internet for many years. Observations: too many riders in a race for modern roads with all the road furniture; disc brakes are more dangerous, wheel changes take longer, resulting in more risks to re-join; many innovations in wheels, tires, etc are not safe; electronic shifting is less reliable, resulting in more mechanical issues than in the old days. I think teams ought to be smaller, 7 for GTs, 6 for lesser races. Flat finishes should have universal criteria such as last km straight, standard barriers sloping back, no extended feet.

 

[Cookster15]

I feel more comfortable descending on the hoods, because my torso-armreach, with frame geometry, isn't so great. What should I do? Go against a natural inclination? When I listen to the same old advice, I feel less in control. I've tried to go into the drops, but then, invariably, return to the hoods.🤹

Hmmm, maybe you feel that way, I certainly don't - I think you would be in the minority. I much prefer to descend on the drops - not just more aero but more stable - lower center of gravity. A lower lower center of gravity feels more stable and in control.

But as this discussion has been prompted by the Itzulia crash, we should focus on what actually caused that crash?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't think Plugge or Ratcliffe are particularly using this as argument for onecycling, after all Jumbo's Jaap Van Hulten is now heading up SafeR for the teams and there's not an angle of onecycling to it afaikt? End of the day cycling exists with a model where you can potentially have no top rider racing the top event or at it's worse a situation where a team like Jumbo might not return a single penny of investment if their top riders are all in hospital before they hit Le Tour. As Plugge said this week "You have to protect your people but also think about the business. This is harmful to our sport".
I'm not sure you could blame Plugge's teams for what has happened to Wout and Vingo etc. I mean, sure, the riders are instructed to race at the front but even that is as much a team instruction about safety as it is about winning strategy. One crash could theoretically cause Jumbo to fold because only the riders give ROI to the sponsor, not the race organisers, not TV and not the UCI.

I wasn't saying that Plugge's teams were responsible for the crashes. I was just saying that these incidents were more the product of rider error and tactical demands than organiser deficiencies, but the answer proposed from that side is always to expect organisers to foot the bill and serve as the fall guy.

 

[Rob5091]

It could be turning into one of those years ... Ladies Amstel Gold Race -
https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/amstel-gold-race-we/2024/result/live
Politie Eenheid Limburg POL_Limburg
“A police motorcyclist was injured this morning around 11 a.m. in a collision with a car on the Bergseweg in #Voerendaal while supervising the Amstel Gold Race. He was taken to hospital by ambulance. The Bergseweg has been closed off for an investigation by TTOV.”

 

[Extinction]

Hmmm, maybe you feel that way, I certainly don't - I think you would be in the minority. I much prefer to descend on the drops - not just more aero but more stable - lower center of gravity. A lower lower center of gravity feels more stable and in control.

But as this discussion has been prompted by the Itzulia crash, we should focus on what actually caused that crash?

As I said, my arm reach isn't so great, for which when I'm down in the drops I feel unnaturally stretched, that's it really. Consequently, from very early on I got used to descending on the hoods and almost never ride the drops even on the flats.

 

[AmRacer]

As I said, my arm reach isn't so great, for which when I'm down in the drops I feel unnaturally stretched, that's it really. Consequently, from very early on I got used to descending on the hoods and almost never ride the drops even on the flats.

Do a Froome, adjust your saddle height. 😁

 

[Red Rick]

Mollema with an interesting take, saying descents are much crazier now tham in the past because many riders have much bigger big gears now so they can pedal descents up to 80kph unlike in the past

That said, his suggestion of gear restrictions seemed super unrealistic to me

 

[Netserk]

I think it’s one of the more realistic proposals. Easy to implement, inexpensive and limited damage to any particular stakeholder. If you can regulate bike weight, you can regulate gear ratios - and they already do the latter for juniors.

Unlike electronic gears and disc brakes, bigger gears are not what sells to the public.

 

[Samamba]

Mollema with an interesting take, saying descents are much crazier now tham in the past because many riders have much bigger big gears now so they can pedal descents up to 80kph unlike in the past

That said, his suggestion of gear restrictions seemed super unrealistic to me

A lot of riders have said this the past few weeks. You don't even start spinning going 90km/u some say, that's pretty insane.

I don't think it's that unrealistic tho? Doesn't make it less entertaining and big gears don't sell like Netserk said.

and they already do the latter for juniors

That changed no? Or at least in international races, some countries still have limits (Belgium does for example).