Crashes, what can be done?

[jmdirt]

This makes a lot of sense. I was riding bikes in traffic before I could drive a car, so I have always driven like a cyclist - a lot of awareness, the assumption that you are usually invisible, the expectation that someone probably will turn in front of you/fail to stop etc. It's saved countless potential accidents.

In a peloton it may be less complicated than how much information the brain can process. i.e. could it be less about processing inputs and more about maintaining a consistent sense of awareness.

An analogy: when you're walking in a busy city, everyone walks in a kind of flow. Then there is someone who is texting - they step out of that flow, by failing to maintain that basic level of simple awareness. And it's super obvious to everyone else, and a bit annoying.

You can't be aware of something that you aren't aware of though. By that I mean, you have to process it first to be aware of it. All cyclist are aware of certain things within the peloton, but a lot of things are happening all at once (often when exhausted).

 

[Mayomaniac]

Something else, would it really hurt racing if we had a speed limit of 80 km/h on descents?

Most fatal crashes on descents seem to be on highspeed ones where they go close to 100 km/h or even faster.
Good descenders can still make the difference on more technical descents.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Something else, would it really hurt racing if we had a speed limit of 80 km/h on descents?

Most fatal crashes on descents seem to be on highspeed ones where they go close to 100 km/h or even faster.
Good descenders can still make the difference on more technical descents.

GPS-policed? Seems like another gold mine for the UCI.

 

[Mayomaniac]

GPS-policed? Seems like another gold mine for the UCI.

Frankly it's not that hard to control with gps.

It's the only sport where they hit those speeds without their ears being covered by a helmet and the eyes being fully covered by a helmet visor or at least fully closed skiing glasses. I can see the wind/air resistance being so strong and loud at those speeds that it messes with your reaction time if eyes and ears aren't properly protected.

Not to mention that almost nobody does those speeds in training and most descents aren't that fast, so they might underestimate their reaction time at those high speeds.

 

[The Hegelian]

You can't be aware of something that you aren't aware of though. By that I mean, you have to process it first to be aware of it. All cyclist are aware of certain things within the peloton, but a lot of things are happening all at once (often when exhausted).

I take your point. We could lose a lot of hours on the neuroscience/phenomenology of awareness and I think maybe this could be the key area where tangible safety improvements are won. So I hope this work is done by someone connected with the UCI etc. Mindfulness can be learned.

The problem of exhaustion is probably a big barrier though. Going back to road accident studies, I have heard it said that sleep deprivation is worse than alcohol for diminishing cognitive abilities in traffic. Hour 4, day 16 of a hot tdf - a lot of riders are just going to be cooked mentally.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Extra cushion in case he has a crash. Lord knows it helped me when I fell off a wall on my right hip at a Spartan race.

Mhm.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Meanwhile a so called "yellow card" was introduced at Vuelta 2024:

Yellow card sanctions

• During the same race, anyone receiving two yellow cards will be disqualified from that race and suspended for 7 days, from the day after receiving the second yellow card;
• Anyone receiving three yellow cards within 30 days shall be suspended for 14 days, from the day following the receipt of the third yellow card;
• Anyone receiving 6 yellow cards within one year shall be suspended for 30 days, from the day following the receipt of the sixth yellow card;
• A yellow card that has been taken into account for the imposition of a period of disqualification will no longer be taken into account in the future.

Las tarjetas amarillas llegan al ciclismo: estarán en vigor en LaVuelta

Las tartejas amarillas ya son una realidad en el ciclismo. La UCI oficializó su entrada en vigor a partir del 1 de agosto. Estarán en pruebas hasta el 31 de diciembre de 2024 sin q

www.marca.com

And apparently first rider was already sanctioned with it:

James Knox becomes the first male rider to receive a "bizzare" yellow card

Soudal - Quick-Step rider James Knox has been given

cyclinguptodate.com

Reading the reasons for it it appears that Knox caused a spectator to crash by playing with the bottle. Lets give it time but somehow i feel that expectations might be a bit high, on how this will help to reduce number of crashes in the peloton and more importantly to prevent injuries. Anyway, lets give it time and it will be interesting to see if the statistics will pick it up. Or is this just some sort of punishment system, for everything, and not all that related to crash or injury prevention. It reads to me like an arbitrary justice enforcement after the stage? Imagine if fans would be able to control it, over social media.

 

[CyclistAbi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1828843672701640787

View: https://x.com/ben_oconnor95/status/1828843672701640787


Yeah, in the end this has nothing to do with crashes or injury prevention. It's some sort of arbitrary punishment system for i guess everything. On top of that it implies riders are guilty for causing crashes and injuries and by punishing them things will improve. Sort of like saying cow farts are causing global warming and expecting applause and results after saying that.

So UCI please don't be lazy and do more in regards to crash and injury prevention in the future. If you won't do that willingly we'll make you, just as it was done with doping, on where after much pressure UCI gave in.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It reads to me like an arbitrary justice enforcement after the stage? Imagine if fans would be able to control it, over social media.

Ben O'Connor deletes X account after outrage against jury's decision to hand out yellow cards to three of his teammates

Three of red jersey Ben O'Connor's Decathlon AG2R La Mondiale team mates received a yellow card after Wednesday's stage 11 of Vuelta a Espana. Why? It's not rare to see GC teams 'blocking' the road to...

cyclinguptodate.com

Yep, what were they thinking would happen. Hang in there Ben, if you have to give in to Rogla, OK, but no way you should do that in regards to the mob.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Ben O'Connor deletes X account after outrage against jury's decision to hand out yellow cards to three of his teammates

Three of red jersey Ben O'Connor's Decathlon AG2R La Mondiale team mates received a yellow card after Wednesday's stage 11 of Vuelta a Espana. Why? It's not rare to see GC teams 'blocking' the road to...

cyclinguptodate.com

Yep, what were they thinking would happen. Hang in there Ben, if you have to give in to Rogla, OK, but no way you should do that in regards to the mob.

Yellow cards in soccer are given not just for fouls, but for dissent and unsportsmanlike conduct as well.

Yellow cards in XC skiing are given not just for causing accidents, but for disrespecting the course or technique violations as well.

I don't see any problem, if they have yellow cards as a disciplinary measure, with them deciding to use them to dissuade teams from setting up rolling roadblocks and preventing racing, it's just a different offence to merit it, and not really relevant to this thread in the circumstances.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

They were blocking the road, and keeping a GT contender from going up the road, and that contender tried to go around and crashed...well, suck it up, buttercup. I completely understand their decision.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Yellow cards in soccer are given not just for fouls, but for dissent and unsportsmanlike conduct as well.

Yellow cards in XC skiing are given not just for causing accidents, but for disrespecting the course or technique violations as well.

I don't see any problem, if they have yellow cards as a disciplinary measure, with them deciding to use them to dissuade teams from setting up rolling roadblocks and preventing racing, it's just a different offence to merit it, and not really relevant to this thread in the circumstances.

Exactly. It isn't really all that safety oriented measure. In terms of preventing crashes or injuries.

Verkehrsinsel übersehen: Potocnik zeigt Stinkefinger

Eva Potocnik kommt bei der Rad-WM 2024 in Zürich im Zeitfahren der Juniorinnen beinahe zu Fall und zeigt danach eine unschöne Geste.

www.eurosport.de

For example Eva likely could have received a yellow card for the gesture although we all know it was warranted and just. Cyclists crashing all over and getting injured and people in charge penalizing them and doing nothing to improve the situation, prevent crashes and injuries. Incompetence at its best.

 

[Lequack]

A young Swiss rider has died today at at the World Championships, aged just 18. It's just tragic and sad. I don't know what else to say.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1839647782732288020

View: https://twitter.com/UCI_media/status/1839647782732288020

 

[RedheadDane]

This had me thinking...

In this case, a radio likely wouldn't have made a difference in terms of getting help to her in time, if nobody saw her crash, and she was unconscious, she couldn't have called for help.
Maybe what's needed is some sort of sender, that could send a signal if the rider stops moving.

 

[Izzyeviel]

This had me thinking...

In this case, a radio likely wouldn't have made a difference in terms of getting help to her in time, if nobody saw her crash, and she was unconscious, she couldn't have called for help.
Maybe what's needed is some sort of sender, that could send a signal if the rider stops moving.

Every bike is supposed to have a transponder so they can monitor where they are for the timings - you would like to think theres something in place to highlight when a rider has stopped. And ignoring that, it shouldn't be too difficult to have marshals on the descent

 

[RedheadDane]

Every bike is supposed to have a transponder so they can monitor where they are for the timings - you would like to think theres something in place to highlight when a rider has stopped. And ignoring that, it shouldn't be too difficult to have marshals on the descent

I was thinking more something attached to the rider.
Wasn't there a lot of talk about helmets with sending equipment after Steven de Jongh had that training crash a few years back?

 

[EliseeReclus]

This had me thinking...

In this case, a radio likely wouldn't have made a difference in terms of getting help to her in time, if nobody saw her crash, and she was unconscious, she couldn't have called for help.
Maybe what's needed is some sort of sender, that could send a signal if the rider stops moving.

Perhaps - but lack of contact on the radio could mean the DS could raise it on the riders behalf. I'm not 100% certain how much a rider will communicate on the radio throughout a race, but I would like to think that if a rider goes silent for a stretch then it would be a cause for concern for the DS. It seems very tragically in this instance there has been a very long gap between the crash and the rider being discovered (although the lack of information in regard to what has happened is not good in this instance), at the very least there would be an extra chance of finding out that a crash has occurred with a radio through both the rider communicating it if they're conscious, or the DS noticing a radio silence if they are unconscious.

 

[RedheadDane]

Perhaps - but lack of contact on the radio could mean the DS could raise it on the riders behalf.

Seems nobody was aware she'd crashed...

 

[theyoungest]

The idea of that poor girl lying there somewhere in a ditch for hours without anyone missing her or being aware she's crashed, I refuse to believe it. If true, an absolute disgrace.

 

[Izzyeviel]

Of course the bigger issue is no-one gives a *** about the safety of riders not in the male pro peloton outside of world tour events. We were told after the Basque crash they'd be doing risk assessments on descents, & obviously, this didn't happen at the worlds.

 

[Red Rick]

Of course the bigger issue is no-one gives a *** about the safety of riders not in the male pro peloton outside of world tour events. We were told after the Basque crash they'd be doing risk assessments on descents, & obviously, this didn't happen at the worlds.

I mean, it's just dumb to primarily blame the descent here when I can name at least 2 other elephants in the room

 

[SHAD0W93]

This had me thinking...

In this case, a radio likely wouldn't have made a difference in terms of getting help to her in time, if nobody saw her crash, and she was unconscious, she couldn't have called for help.
Maybe what's needed is some sort of sender, that could send a signal if the rider stops moving.

They could use an Apple Watch. That detects if you’ve crashed and you answer a question it asks when it detects a potential crash. If you don’t answer in a certain timeframe it sends an alert.

I’ve had it alert when doing the Spartan races either actually falling on a downhill or coming over a wall and landing hard. I’ve had it go off once when I was hit by a car on my bike but in my concussive state I picked that I was fine then texted my mom “help”. So it can be useful but has its limitations.

 

[awavey]

They could use an Apple Watch. That detects if you’ve crashed and you answer a question it asks when it detects a potential crash. If you don’t answer in a certain timeframe it sends an alert.

I’ve had it alert when doing the Spartan races either actually falling on a downhill or coming over a wall and landing hard. I’ve had it go off once when I was hit by a car on my bike but in my concussive state I picked that I was fine then texted my mom “help”. So it can be useful but has its limitations.

I thought the latest garmin head units had crash or incident detection, though most people complain theyre too easy to set off.

But I mean it's standard feature for cycle dashcams thesedays, its just an accelerometer, even my bike lights have that capability (they flash more vigorously and if paired with a phone can text my location to an emergency contact)

 

[Peyroteo94]

Cycling is dangerous, there is nothing more they can do. The majority of crashes are caused by riders mistakes, so don't blame organizers for deaths on the road.
I am more concerned about riders safety when they are training, there are still a lot of dumb people driving a car.

 

[RedheadDane]

The majority of crashes are caused by riders mistakes, so don't blame organizers for deaths on the road.

We can't blame them for the crash.
We sure as hell can blame them for not realising earlier that there had been a crash.