Crashes, what can be done?

[CyclistAbi]

It's almost like some of us here were making genuine suggestions about how to improve safety rather than not caring about rider safety because they didn't agree with you eh?

Well, yeah, this is on how a normal debate goes. You don't tend to argue with opinions you agree with. So if we didn't exchange arguments much in this thread, at least i don't remember ATM. Then obviously we are on the same page. For example i argued strongly, on such measures to be taken. To gather the data and to analyse it and for that to be used for applying new measures. So likely you did the same or agreed with it. And honestly i can't take much credit for that, this is not some novel invention or approach, this is on just on how things are done in real world.

It's amazing that it took UCI till 2024.

Now here i will take some credit, just as for example Plugge can, being a loudmouth about it. Here i don't agree with you, on how UCI would have just as well done it, without that. They would have done nothing if not pressured into it. Just like when it comes mandating more safety apparel in pro peloton, main strategy applied for injury prevention. Without being pressured in it they will never do that. And yet they will.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I would advice you against holding your breath.

Slowly, we have time. At least we moved up from nothing can be done, predominant dogma of the past century.

That era is now officially over.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Guys, honestly, i felt it will take longer. Looks like initiative was always there. They all just needed a little push, well, truth to be said, some needed more of a kick in theirs truly. Just like Rogla, when hitting the deck.

That feeling.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Slowly, we have time. At least we moved up from nothing can be done, predominant dogma of the past century.

That era is now officially over.

Nobody ever said nothing can be done.

They just didn't happen to agree with the conclusions you were drawing or that the solutions you had set your heart on were:

a) the most pressing solution to implement;
b) the solution to the most pressing problem;
c) an effective solution to the problems currently faced that could be reasonably implemented in the present or near future.

But sure, paint it like everybody who doesn't think airbags to protect collarbones from a direct blow continue to want crashes to disrupt races.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I think he's quite mad that Roglic crashed again. It is what it is.

 

[Bolder]

Slowly, we have time. At least we moved up from nothing can be done, predominant dogma of the past century.

That era is now officially over.

It was not that long ago that helmets were optional.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Libertine Seguros

Of course that was being said, like all the time, it was an ongoing meme.

As for agreeing or disagreeing, in the end UCI now implemented a lot of things discussed in this thread. Imagine that. I am sure that after they further catch up, realizing injury prevention is just as important and needed, just like we did in this thread, for things to progress further. Regarding mandating introduction of injury prevention apparel.

@Valv.Piti

Of course i was, no words can really describe that. Already targeting new races, though.

@Bolder

Helmets are a good example on where people from the previous century got their *** together, we are indeed still catching up and lets hope we can be brilliant too, people from the current century. In a lot of areas it does seems to suggest we are going backwards. All in all i am sure that our century will have something to show, on where it comes to injury prevention apparel introduced in the pro peloton. Likely nothing sci-fi, or anything like that. Current, or better, now already a rather old tech being introduced into this beautiful sport. That seem a rather realistic outcome. We'll see.

 

[Unchained]

Nobody ever said nothing can be done.

They just didn't happen to agree with the conclusions you were drawing or that the solutions you had set your heart on were:

a) the most pressing solution to implement;
b) the solution to the most pressing problem;
c) an effective solution to the problems currently faced that could be reasonably implemented in the present or near future.

But sure, paint it like everybody who doesn't think airbags to protect collarbones from a direct blow continue to want crashes to disrupt races.

Your statement that " nobody ever said nothing can be done " is incorrect. I said that nothing can be done. Even if they raced tricycles or had a huge protective hoop on the bike that kept riders half a meter away from each other, they would still crash.
Look no further than individual time trials w 1 minute+ start intervals.. They still crash.
It's completely natural, completely logical, completely inevitable. F1, all skiing and skating, GP1, NASCAR, Rally, Dakar, Baja the list is endless. When you are pushing human physical limits crashes are just part of it. People are seriously injured playing water polo.
Cycling is only slightly ahead of water polo because pro bike racing uniform is the equivalent of Spanks, a tight fitting compression underwear!! Until riders are wearing leathers and real helmets injuries are going to be widespread. You don't wear a surfing rash guard and yoga pants w a pad and expect any protection..
Bike racing uniforms are unsafe by design. Go to an engineering school and give students the question.. You are going to race bicycles down curvy wet mountain roads at 80+ kph what would a logical uniform look like.. Lycra shorts and a polystyrene minimal helmet w a cheesy chin strap would not be suggested by even the stupidest student!!
Today's sprint has head, shoulder and body contact by half dozen riders in last @300 meters, you can't get that out of the sport.

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[Libertine Seguros]

@Libertine Seguros

Of course that was being said, like all the time, it was an ongoing meme.

As for agreeing or disagreeing, in the end UCI now implemented a lot of things discussed in this thread. Imagine that. I am sure that after they further catch up, realizing injury prevention is just as important and needed, just like we did in this thread, for things to progress further. Regarding mandating introduction of injury prevention apparel.

You're claiming credit for the UCI reviewing things, finding something that backed up the case of the people that disagreed with you, and implementing something suggested by somebody else directly in contradiction to your own preferred solution?

 

[jmdirt]

Yeah, it is a fine balancing act. With someone with Roglic's history, you probably would sacrifice a climber or two for more rouleurs. Evans won in 2011 with this approach, with a similarly crash ridden past.

I wonder if the deficiency is more about awareness rather than bike handling?

I listened to (a small) part of a podcast on traffic safety, and one of the people who studies crashes said that 'there is no such thing as bad drivers, just bad thinkers' (he is also a driving instructor for adults who have never had a drivers license). Many people are unable to take in and process all of the things going on when they are driving.

So just to put hypothetical numbers to it: rider A can take in and process 8 pieces of information, while rider B can only take in and process 5. Rider B will likely crash more.

 

[The Hegelian]

I listened to (a small) part of a podcast on traffic safety, and one of the people who studies crashes said that 'there is no such thing as bad drivers, just bad thinkers' (he is also a driving instructor for adults who have never had a drivers license). Many people are unable to take in and process all of the things going on when they are driving.

So just to put hypothetical numbers to it: rider A can take in and process 8 pieces of information, while rider B can only take in and process 5. Rider B will likely crash more.

This makes a lot of sense. I was riding bikes in traffic before I could drive a car, so I have always driven like a cyclist - a lot of awareness, the assumption that you are usually invisible, the expectation that someone probably will turn in front of you/fail to stop etc. It's saved countless potential accidents.

In a peloton it may be less complicated than how much information the brain can process. i.e. could it be less about processing inputs and more about maintaining a consistent sense of awareness.

An analogy: when you're walking in a busy city, everyone walks in a kind of flow. Then there is someone who is texting - they step out of that flow, by failing to maintain that basic level of simple awareness. And it's super obvious to everyone else, and a bit annoying.

 

[jmdirt]

This makes a lot of sense. I was riding bikes in traffic before I could drive a car, so I have always driven like a cyclist - a lot of awareness, the assumption that you are usually invisible, the expectation that someone probably will turn in front of you/fail to stop etc. It's saved countless potential accidents.

In a peloton it may be less complicated than how much information the brain can process. i.e. could it be less about processing inputs and more about maintaining a consistent sense of awareness.

An analogy: when you're walking in a busy city, everyone walks in a kind of flow. Then there is someone who is texting - they step out of that flow, by failing to maintain that basic level of simple awareness. And it's super obvious to everyone else, and a bit annoying.

You can't be aware of something that you aren't aware of though. By that I mean, you have to process it first to be aware of it. All cyclist are aware of certain things within the peloton, but a lot of things are happening all at once (often when exhausted).

 

[Mayomaniac]

Something else, would it really hurt racing if we had a speed limit of 80 km/h on descents?

Most fatal crashes on descents seem to be on highspeed ones where they go close to 100 km/h or even faster.
Good descenders can still make the difference on more technical descents.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Something else, would it really hurt racing if we had a speed limit of 80 km/h on descents?

Most fatal crashes on descents seem to be on highspeed ones where they go close to 100 km/h or even faster.
Good descenders can still make the difference on more technical descents.

GPS-policed? Seems like another gold mine for the UCI.

 

[Mayomaniac]

GPS-policed? Seems like another gold mine for the UCI.

Frankly it's not that hard to control with gps.

It's the only sport where they hit those speeds without their ears being covered by a helmet and the eyes being fully covered by a helmet visor or at least fully closed skiing glasses. I can see the wind/air resistance being so strong and loud at those speeds that it messes with your reaction time if eyes and ears aren't properly protected.

Not to mention that almost nobody does those speeds in training and most descents aren't that fast, so they might underestimate their reaction time at those high speeds.

 

[The Hegelian]

You can't be aware of something that you aren't aware of though. By that I mean, you have to process it first to be aware of it. All cyclist are aware of certain things within the peloton, but a lot of things are happening all at once (often when exhausted).

I take your point. We could lose a lot of hours on the neuroscience/phenomenology of awareness and I think maybe this could be the key area where tangible safety improvements are won. So I hope this work is done by someone connected with the UCI etc. Mindfulness can be learned.

The problem of exhaustion is probably a big barrier though. Going back to road accident studies, I have heard it said that sleep deprivation is worse than alcohol for diminishing cognitive abilities in traffic. Hour 4, day 16 of a hot tdf - a lot of riders are just going to be cooked mentally.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Extra cushion in case he has a crash. Lord knows it helped me when I fell off a wall on my right hip at a Spartan race.

Mhm.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Meanwhile a so called "yellow card" was introduced at Vuelta 2024:

Yellow card sanctions

• During the same race, anyone receiving two yellow cards will be disqualified from that race and suspended for 7 days, from the day after receiving the second yellow card;
• Anyone receiving three yellow cards within 30 days shall be suspended for 14 days, from the day following the receipt of the third yellow card;
• Anyone receiving 6 yellow cards within one year shall be suspended for 30 days, from the day following the receipt of the sixth yellow card;
• A yellow card that has been taken into account for the imposition of a period of disqualification will no longer be taken into account in the future.

Las tarjetas amarillas llegan al ciclismo: estarán en vigor en LaVuelta

Las tartejas amarillas ya son una realidad en el ciclismo. La UCI oficializó su entrada en vigor a partir del 1 de agosto. Estarán en pruebas hasta el 31 de diciembre de 2024 sin q

www.marca.com

And apparently first rider was already sanctioned with it:

James Knox becomes the first male rider to receive a "bizzare" yellow card

Soudal - Quick-Step rider James Knox has been given

cyclinguptodate.com

Reading the reasons for it it appears that Knox caused a spectator to crash by playing with the bottle. Lets give it time but somehow i feel that expectations might be a bit high, on how this will help to reduce number of crashes in the peloton and more importantly to prevent injuries. Anyway, lets give it time and it will be interesting to see if the statistics will pick it up. Or is this just some sort of punishment system, for everything, and not all that related to crash or injury prevention. It reads to me like an arbitrary justice enforcement after the stage? Imagine if fans would be able to control it, over social media.

 

[CyclistAbi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1828843672701640787

View: https://x.com/ben_oconnor95/status/1828843672701640787


Yeah, in the end this has nothing to do with crashes or injury prevention. It's some sort of arbitrary punishment system for i guess everything. On top of that it implies riders are guilty for causing crashes and injuries and by punishing them things will improve. Sort of like saying cow farts are causing global warming and expecting applause and results after saying that.

So UCI please don't be lazy and do more in regards to crash and injury prevention in the future. If you won't do that willingly we'll make you, just as it was done with doping, on where after much pressure UCI gave in.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It reads to me like an arbitrary justice enforcement after the stage? Imagine if fans would be able to control it, over social media.

Ben O'Connor deletes X account after outrage against jury's decision to hand out yellow cards to three of his teammates

Three of red jersey Ben O'Connor's Decathlon AG2R La

cyclinguptodate.com

Yep, what were they thinking would happen. Hang in there Ben, if you have to give in to Rogla, OK, but no way you should do that in regards to the mob.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Ben O'Connor deletes X account after outrage against jury's decision to hand out yellow cards to three of his teammates

Three of red jersey Ben O'Connor's Decathlon AG2R La

cyclinguptodate.com

Yep, what were they thinking would happen. Hang in there Ben, if you have to give in to Rogla, OK, but no way you should do that in regards to the mob.

Yellow cards in soccer are given not just for fouls, but for dissent and unsportsmanlike conduct as well.

Yellow cards in XC skiing are given not just for causing accidents, but for disrespecting the course or technique violations as well.

I don't see any problem, if they have yellow cards as a disciplinary measure, with them deciding to use them to dissuade teams from setting up rolling roadblocks and preventing racing, it's just a different offence to merit it, and not really relevant to this thread in the circumstances.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

They were blocking the road, and keeping a GT contender from going up the road, and that contender tried to go around and crashed...well, suck it up, buttercup. I completely understand their decision.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Yellow cards in soccer are given not just for fouls, but for dissent and unsportsmanlike conduct as well.

Yellow cards in XC skiing are given not just for causing accidents, but for disrespecting the course or technique violations as well.

I don't see any problem, if they have yellow cards as a disciplinary measure, with them deciding to use them to dissuade teams from setting up rolling roadblocks and preventing racing, it's just a different offence to merit it, and not really relevant to this thread in the circumstances.

Exactly. It isn't really all that safety oriented measure. In terms of preventing crashes or injuries.

Rad-WM: Eva Potocnik übersieht Verkehrsinsel - Slowenin zeigt anschließend den Mittelfinger in die Kamera - Radsport Video - Eurosport

Eva Potocnik kommt bei der Rad-WM 2024 in Zürich im Zeitfahren der Juniorinnen beinahe zu Fall und zeigt danach eine unschöne Geste.

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For example Eva likely could have received a yellow card for the gesture although we all know it was warranted and just. Cyclists crashing all over and getting injured and people in charge penalizing them and doing nothing to improve the situation, prevent crashes and injuries. Incompetence at its best.

 

[Lequack]

A young Swiss rider has died today at at the World Championships, aged just 18. It's just tragic and sad. I don't know what else to say.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1839647782732288020

View: https://twitter.com/UCI_media/status/1839647782732288020

 

[RedheadDane]

This had me thinking...

In this case, a radio likely wouldn't have made a difference in terms of getting help to her in time, if nobody saw her crash, and she was unconscious, she couldn't have called for help.
Maybe what's needed is some sort of sender, that could send a signal if the rider stops moving.