Crashes, what can be done?

[CyclistAbi]

@Cookster15

If you are interested go through this thread and you will find examples. In the end the conclusion was although solutions on the market already exist and the tech is already a few years old, likely it will take some additional time to first introduce this technology in the pro peloton and after for general public to pick it up. All in all we couldn't save Eddy's hip but i am optimistic Pogi, when 80, will post an image on social media on how such technology saved his hip. Similar to on how we often see on social media helmets doing the same job for the head. It's just that this will likely be a slow process, introducing it. Compared to lets say UCI saying enough is enough and mandating such technology at lets say PR 2026. Current climate is just against that, lets do nothing is the current predominant solution, likely due to it requiring the least amount of effort invested, results of this strategy are rather bad, though.

 

[SHAD0W93]

@James M

We already discussed it in this thread and the solution is known. If we would be there already and Eddy would wear apparel with built in air bag technology, then when crashing his hip would hit an air filled barrier instead of a rail track. That likely would have saved his hip. Anyway, when Pogi will be 80, he will likely wear it, so there is that.

“Breaking news, cycling legend Eddy Mercks with a hemorrhagic stroke/fractured cervical spine following hip saving airbag deployed and caused cycling legend to land on his head.”

@Cookster15

If you are interested go through this thread and you will find examples. In the end the conclusion was although solutions on the market already exist and the tech is already a few years old, likely it will take some additional time to first introduce this technology in the pro peloton and after for general public to pick it up.

What you posted previously is already being used by the general public recreational cyclists, that’s who it was made for. The issue was how it’s deployed isn’t feasible to how the pros ride which can cause accidental deployment along with the weight, heat, and other bodily injuries caused by the airbag being deployed at pro speeds.

 

[Wyndbrook]

My starters for 10 or whatever.
Improvements to all riders clothes such as the protective fabric used by DSM this year would be a benefit.
Make bikes heavier.
Standardised slower tyes.
Gear limitations, both high and low.
Limited used of radios to stop insane DS,s screaming in riders ears to keep moving up all the time.
A minimum handlebar width ( to include track bikes as well).
Location transponders on all riders bikes in all races.
Enhanced medical support for all races.
Better trained officials to make consistent rulings.
Road marking lines at finish of sprint expected races.
Effective pre course inspections with power to insist on course changes.

 

[CyclistAbi]

“Breaking news, cycling legend Eddy Mercks with a hemorrhagic stroke/fractured cervical spine following hip saving airbag deployed and caused cycling legend to land on his head.”

No such things are happening in other sports, on where such equipment is already being used, for years. Like motorcycling and downhill skiing. So the most likely outcome in Eddy case would be no fractured hip and that is that. For Eddy to get back on the bike and to continue the ride.

What you posted previously is already being used by the general public recreational cyclists, that’s who it was made for. The issue was how it’s deployed isn’t feasible to how the pros ride which can cause accidental deployment along with the weight, heat, and other bodily injuries caused by the airbag being deployed at pro speeds.

Currently it's not a common thing in cycling but once it gets introduced in pro peloton then in my opinion majority will start to wear it in some form. As for weight, heat and other things you mention to represent a problem, or for technology itself to cause injuries. Get real. This are, statistically and technically speaking all non issues.

But as we already had all this discussions and as it's not reasonable to expect this measure to be implemented tomorrow. For now i am focusing on reality and that is i am familiarizing myself with things like when UCI and other parties get together and talk about this aspect of cycling, now i am interested in what exactly they are talking about and more importantly on what gets implemented in the end. Currently the results are:

Preliminary list (December 2024):

• yellow card system

Things like radios and similar are being discussed. But AFAIK nothing implemented yet so i can't add anything new to the list for now. This list will likely need to be a couple tens of items long, before introducing air bag technology in pro peloton. So lets at least do that ASAP. No need to discuss some peanut items for lets say 3 to 5 years, before implementation. But i know and i hear you, there are no limits to when it comes to laziness.

 

[SHAD0W93]

No such things are happening in other sports, on where such equipment is already being used, for years. Like motorcycling and downhill skiing. So the most likely outcome in Eddy case would be no fractured hip and that is that. For Eddy to get back on the bike and to continue the ride.



Currently it's not a common thing in cycling but once it gets introduced in pro peloton then in my opinion majority will start to wear it in some form. As for weight, heat and other things you mention to represent a problem, or for technology itself to cause injuries. Get real. This are, statistically and technically speaking all non issues.

Have you seen how big and encumbering the airbags are for skiing and motorcycle racing and compared them to the size of the airbags you shared previously? They’re not comparable at all, of course those protect the individual better.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Have you seen how big and encumbering the airbags are for skiing and motorcycle racing and compared them to the size of the airbags you shared previously? They’re not comparable at all, of course those protect the individual better.

So what you are saying is you would rather have a broken hip then to wear additional couple of hundred grams? And then you go and ride with your cell phone weighting a couple of hundred grams? You don't need a MotoGP grade vest on you to protect your hip riding a bike. Forces, on where Eddy felt, are completely different. Even in pro peloton the difference is still huge. But anyway, we had all this discussions already, lets focus on near term solutions for now. Here we are ATM:

Preliminary list (December 2024):

• yellow card system

Lets see if we can add an item before the season 2025 start. If not then surely by the 2025 season end. Baby steps.

 

[SHAD0W93]

So what you are saying is you would rather have a broken hip then to wear additional couple of hundred grams? And then you go and ride with your cell phone weighting a couple of hundred grams? You don't need a MotoGP grade vest on you to protect your hip riding a bike. Forces, on where Eddy felt, are completely different. Even in pro peloton the difference is still huge. But anyway, we had all this discussions already, lets focus on near term solutions for now. Here we are ATM:

Preliminary list (December 2024):

• yellow card system

Lets see if we can add an item before the season 2025 start. If not then surely by the 2025 season end. Baby steps.

How would an airbag around the neck and chest protect your hip from breaking?

“Motorcycle airbag vests can vary in weight depending on the model, but typically weigh between 2.35 and 7 pounds.”

“The weight of a ski airbag can vary depending on the model and whether it includes the cylinder:
Backcountry Access Float 32: The full system with the cylinder weighs 6.4 lb (2,942 g), while the full system without the cylinder weighs 5.2 lb (2,366 g). The pack only weighs 3.8 lb (1,704 g).
BCA Float E2-35: The backpack weighs 6.1 lb (2,792 g) with the E2 system and 3.6 lb (1,651 g) without the E2 system.
Black Diamond JetForce Pro Avalanche Airbag Pack: The S/M size weighs 6 lb 8 oz (2.96 kg), while the M/L size weighs 6 lb 12 oz (3.06 kg).
Ortovox Avabag Litric Tour 30: This airbag pack weighs 5 lb 5 oz.”

“The iPhone 14 Pro Max weighs 8.47 ounces (240 grams).”



For this upcoming year they should also focus on making traffic furniture easily identifiable. The yellow card is reactive, people still commit penalties in other sports despite the risk of said penalty and fines. I’m not saying to remove it, but it can’t be the only deterrent.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@SHAD0W93

There is no special reason on why an inflatable pocket can't be made available in all areas on where majority of injuries happen and are currently covered with jersey. So chest, hip, back, shoulders ... In the end this are just additional pockets that will get filled with air on activation. So if commercial motorcycle vests are as you say in between 1 and 3 kilograms range. Then pro peloton oriented kits can for sure go well below that mark.

But why are we discussing this again? Are you still claiming it wouldn't work or something? That riders would bounce around as balls? Aren't we way past that already? In addition do you claim number of injuries or deaths to not be reduced? When wearing such apparel?

For this upcoming year they should also focus on making traffic furniture easily identifiable. The yellow card is reactive, people still commit penalties in other sports despite the risk of said penalty and fines. I’m not saying to remove it, but it can’t be the only deterrent.

We discussed in this thread, before adding it to the list, on how much safety oriented yellow card system in its current form actually is. The outcome of the debate was it's not feasible to discuss or judge that for now, effectiveness of implemented measure. ATM just about any remotely safety oriented measure that actually does get implemented will be added to the list. Reason being it looks like it's currently rather impossible to achieve even that, so lets start from there on.

 

[AmRacer]

@SHAD0W93

There is no special reason on why an inflatable pocket can't be made available in all areas on where majority of injuries happen and are currently covered with jersey. So chest, hip, back, shoulders ... In the end this are just additional pockets that will get filled with air on activation. So if commercial motorcycle vests are as you say in between 1 and 3 kilograms range. Then pro peloton oriented kits can for sure go well below that mark.

But why are we discussing this again? Are you still claiming it wouldn't work or something? That riders would bounce around as balls? Aren't we way past that already? In addition do you claim number of injuries or deaths to not be reduced? When wearing such apparel?



We discussed in this thread, before adding it to the list, on how much safety oriented yellow card system in its current form actually is. The outcome of the debate was it's not feasible to discuss or judge that for now, effectiveness of implemented measure. ATM just about any remotely safety oriented measure that actually does get implemented will be added to the list. Reason being it looks like it's currently rather impossible to achieve even that, so lets start from there on.

We concluded it won't work but you brought it up again, hence the discussion continues.

 

[Cookster15]

What you posted previously is already being used by the general public recreational cyclists, that’s who it was made for. The issue was how it’s deployed isn’t feasible to how the pros ride which can cause accidental deployment along with the weight, heat, and other bodily injuries caused by the airbag being deployed at pro speeds.

Not just pros - pretty much any competitive road racing, plus when training. Eddy wasn’t racing.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

So these air-bags exist.
How often have you seen them reviewed in serious cycling magazines/websites? How often do those at your local club ride turn up in them? How strongly do those involved in cycling safety education visiting schools promote them? How quickly have the companies making them grown into a major presence in your local bike shop? What percentage market penetration do you believe they have? What are your experiences of using them?

They exist, but are used in tiny numbers, because they are not widely trusted to be practical or effective.

 

[jmdirt]

Dan Bigham says that increasing the retenion of water baottle cages (which would likely make them heavier) could elimiunate 20-40 big crashes a year.

 

[CyclistAbi]

“What is 500 euros if you can prevent deaths with it?” – Stefan Kung offers an interesting solution to cycling’s safety concerns

Groupama-FDJ’s Stefan Kung has brought renewed attention to the ongoing conversation about safety in professional cycling, particularly during the Flanders Classics. The Swiss rider, who won his first...

cyclinguptodate.com

Well said Stefan Küng, well said. So i assume at least some pro riders have no issues wearing more protective apparel, i guess for as long as it statistically reduces number of injuries or even deaths. For sure Küng voicing his opinion in such direct way could spearhead this effort. Lets see if governing bodies will now include it in their debates.

 

[CyclistAbi]

We concluded it won't work but you brought it up again, hence the discussion continues.

Not in this thread. Nobody really proved it wouldn't work or even seriously claimed it doesn't work and presented evidence for it. What was going on is some back and forward in regards to silliness of the idea. But that is normal as once some idea emerges it almost always will be approached in such way. And that is OK, to consider each idea to be a bit silly in the first place.

So these air-bags exist.
How often have you seen them reviewed in serious cycling magazines/websites? How often do those at your local club ride turn up in them? How strongly do those involved in cycling safety education visiting schools promote them? How quickly have the companies making them grown into a major presence in your local bike shop? What percentage market penetration do you believe they have? What are your experiences of using them?

They exist, but are used in tiny numbers, because they are not widely trusted to be practical or effective.

Yeah, it's similar to disc brakes in this regard, from zero to hero. What UCI needs to do is to set a date, for PR or Flanders as Küng seems to suggest, on where lets say wearing such vest will be mandatory, the rest should settle itself out. Apparel suppliers are in my opinion interested in selling it and if stats will look good then each new generation of such technology will more and more feel natural part of pro peloton and as such to become an essential part of cycling in general.

 

[SHAD0W93]

“What is 500 euros if you can prevent deaths with it?” – Stefan Kung offers an interesting solution to cycling’s safety concerns

Groupama-FDJ’s Stefan Kung has brought renewed attention to the ongoing conversation about safety in professional cycling, particularly during the Flanders Classics. The Swiss rider, who won his first...

cyclinguptodate.com

Well said Stefan Küng, well said. So i assume at least some pro riders have no issues wearing more protective apparel, i guess for as long as it statistically reduces number of injuries or even deaths. For sure Küng voicing his opinion in such direct way could spearhead this effort. Lets see if governing bodies will now include it in their debates.

“Despite the initial resistance in skiing, Kung believes such a concept could have potential in cycling if implemented correctly.”


Like what’s been already said that you ignore, belittle the poster and say they don’t want any change or are complacent in being injured/watching injuries occur, and then tell us to move on and put it behind us. You keep wanting to implement the product now. Yet you post products that aren’t viable for the pro scene at this time and when it’s pointed out that it requires work before it can safely be implemented you say we don’t care about safety.

Not in this thread. Nobody really proved it wouldn't work or even seriously claimed it doesn't work and presented evidence for it. What was going on is some back and forward in regards to silliness of the idea. But that is normal as once some idea emerges it almost always will be approached in such way. And that is OK, to consider each idea to be a bit silly in the first place.

Like you recommended Cookster to do, you should go back and read this thread to see what was presented, the complaints, and facts about the system you recommended and how they will work in the peloton. Only one poster has been “silly”.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@SHAD0W93

If i understood you correctly then yes, in general very little measures get implemented in pro road cycling that actually can be backed by some meaningful statistical results in terms of preventing serious injuries. Up until recently this was an afterthought.

As for current gen of airbag technology in terms of road cycling. It's not perfect but that is not a reason to not start mandating it as is, at races such as PR or Flanders. It's good enough for start doing that. The same story basically as with FIS and skiing. From initial concerns and scepticism to now:

FIS Council: airbags are mandatory for Downhill and Super-G athletes as of 2024/25

The FIS Council convened for an online session this Friday and confirmed that the use of airbags will be mandatory for all athletes competing in the speed disciplines of Alpine Skiing at a FIS World Cup level as of this 2024/25 season.

www.fis-ski.com

As for who is being silly here. I specifically asked you and you never claimed it doesn't work. So i am guessing you are more into proving me being silly then anything else. Why didn't you just ask, it would have save us both some time. Doh.

 

[SHAD0W93]

@SHAD0W93

If i understood you correctly then yes, in general very little measures get implemented in pro road cycling that actually can be backed by some meaningful statistical results in terms of preventing serious injuries. Up until recently this was an afterthought.

As for current gen of airbag technology in terms of road cycling. It's not perfect but that is not a reason to not start mandating it as is, at races such as PR or Flanders. It's good enough for start doing that. The same story basically as with FIS and skiing. From initial concerns and scepticism to now:

FIS Council: airbags are mandatory for Downhill and Super-G athletes as of 2024/25

The FIS Council convened for an online session this Friday and confirmed that the use of airbags will be mandatory for all athletes competing in the speed disciplines of Alpine Skiing at a FIS World Cup level as of this 2024/25 season.

www.fis-ski.com

As for who is being silly here. I specifically asked you and you never claimed it doesn't work. So i am guessing you are more into proving me being silly then anything else. Why didn't you just ask, it would have save us both some time. Doh.

Like you always state, go back and read what’s posted. Actually read it, don’t ignore it.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Like you always state, go back and read what’s posted. Actually read it, don’t ignore it.

I don't feel you are in position here to tell me to go back and read something in this thread. Especially when avoiding serious questions and basically laughing at everything. So if you feel something from the thread needs further discussion then you do it. Bring that up by for example quoting it and we can discuss it further, otherwise my reply can always just be go back in this thread and read about things like bouncing balls, don't ignore it.

 

[CyclistAbi]

FYI a quick comparison:

UCI preliminary list (December 2024):

• yellow card system

FIS preliminary list (December 2024):

• Airbags are mandatory for Downhill and Super-G athletes as of 2024/25

 

[CyclistAbi]

“The adoption of airbags is part of a broader approach that involves all the factors that can minimize the risk of serious injuries: from the knowledge around weather conditions and track set-up to equipment such as cut-resistant undergarment and smart bindings. We will embrace any measure that is proven to help protect athletes’ health and welfare.”– Michel Vion, FIS Secretary General

Long way to go but some day UCI will be saying the same thing.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I don't feel you are in position here to tell me to go back and read something in this thread. Especially when avoiding serious questions and basically laughing at everything. So if you feel something from the thread needs further discussion then you do it. Bring that up by for example quoting it and we can discuss it further, otherwise my reply can always just be go back in this thread and read about things like bouncing balls, don't ignore it.

I’m not avoiding it, it’s been spoken about repeatedly by many posters, and it has been quoted in the past to show the thread. By myself included. It is then ignored, pushed aside, we are ridiculed, we are told to go back and read the previous posts, and then we are told to move on. I’m tired of repeatedly going around that mulberry bush, but there’s others here who have not read the thread frequently and just see one side.

The pot that called the kettle black. The posts are laughed at because they border on or cross trolling.

I’m not the one who constantly brings back up the airbags, belittles their other posters when it’s then discussed again, and then tells everyone to move on. It’s been happening for the last couple years. So if you want your proof, quotes, evidence, concerns, issues, etc. whenever you think of this topic and there are no changes from what has been previously stated in regards to the product, please take your own evidence and reread the thread.

Long way to go but some day UCI will be saying the same thing.

We never said they wouldn’t be, only that they have to figure out how to safely bring it into the pro peloton because the ones you have posted are not safe in how they’re deployed. The only concern brought up by some was focusing on collarbone injuries that were stated repeatedly due to Roglic breaking his collarbone, versus head and neck injuries.

 

[hrotha]

At some point you need to stop, take a step back and tell yourself "I've been arguing about airbags in pro cycling with this one guy for almost 2 years and a half now"