Cycle of Lies

[SundayRider]

the problem is we can never know the counter-factual and hypothetical. he had doped since he was a triathlete as a teenager.

I think if there was never doping, Armstrong would have still been a champion in cycling. p'raps, not a mature triathlon competition, he got on an upswing of a nascent sport. The new triathlon champions, all have a physique like the shlecks.

But he would have been a champion in cycling.

He might have podiumed in a clean sport, he might not have. But 131313 made a good post about `8 months back on Armstrongs rising career before cancer. he was starting to become a player and competitor (podium/win) in the one week Tours, and he had the punch to win Ardennes and maybe even Flanders, like Bartoli

All cyclists who have doped suffer the same 'who knows' conundrum. What would they have been like without the doping. Your right about the olympic tris however the long distance triathletes are often bigger built.

 

[thehog]

From Macur's book, I fear LA is totally a lost cause, incapable of learning. He's just too damaged or done too many drugs. Whatever, his tirade to Macur shows the Oprah stuff and apology tour were blatant manipulation.

Which in itself is a psychotic disorder. Zero-risk bias to name one. To untie his disorders it would take months of supervised therapy.

Oprah was an interesting one. I believe he thought that by subjecting himself to it that it would all be over. But confessing was an important step to stop the focus. That component wasn't a bad move.

He's not very good at waiting things out. Like now. Always itching for the next move, to influence in some direction. I'm sure his lawyers are saying 'wait', but he wants to influence, do things.

Alternatively there are many whom enjoy him because it allows them to over play the victim. They need him.

 

[rhubroma]

Given what an arms race it was, my question is, what should Lance Armstrong have done differently as regards the decision to join or not join the arms race? Not asking for opinions re his bullying and lies (and why I feel he really deserved all 7 wins taken off him)...just want your honest opinion on what else he should have done on turning pro

Secondly, you guys would be lost if Lance's story was not here...I actually think we all pretty much enjoy following his story and the car crash it's become

Fair enough, you want my honest opinion...

It was an arms race being played out at different levels of advantage, in which transeconomics and transgovernance resulted in rendering things apparently equal that were in reality not the same.

What I'm saying is that the arms race itself, and the fact that it could never create a level playing field for these reasons, only enhanced the artificial world thus created.

What is perhaps a better indication of "natural ability" can be found in what a rider was capable of in his youth, or in any case the early years of his career at the Tour.

 

[Granville57]

It could be that Floyd and Tyler (and JV for that matter) used that language to disarm the counterattacks from the twit and his media machine.

Vouch for his "bad-as$-ness" in public to defuse the situation.

Ah, but Floyd said as much during his excellent sit-down with Graham Bensinger. By then, the fuse had long been lit and an explosion/implosion of the Armstrong camp was imminent. Floyd had nothing to protect or preserve at that point. Same for Tyler. He had already pulled the pin yet still didn't downplay Lance as a rider.

the problem is we can never know the counter-factual and hypothetical.

Precisely. I would still like to hear from Frankie though, via Betsy.

Allen Lim apparently felt that Floyd could've won ten TdFs against a clean field. As much as I enjoy the idea of that, I have to wonder how Lim could possibly make such an assessment without having worked closely with a decades worth of other possible podium contenders.

These things tend to be unanswerable by their very nature.

 

[blackcat]

anyone ever think that p'raps Lance did not wish to ride the last climb by hmself from the bottom, when Ullrich crashed, and make it into a final ascent timetrial, and would have preferred to go mano a mano until the final 5 kms when he could put 45 seconds into Jan.

If he got 400 metres on Ullrich because of the crash, then it is his tt v Ullrichs tt (plus the 400*gap). And then there are other risks, that may not be there if he was riding with Ullrich at an inch below threshold. (hunger flat for instance). And yes, Ullrich could have dropped him mano a mano and Lance coulda bonked. (and in this hypothetical chrono, he would need to pass Armstrong if he was to gain time).


I have never seen a rider do an inverted attack in the lowlands classics when they were riding against a sprinter classics rider, like Boonen. If you were Cancellara, and you knew that Boonen would get you in a sprint, but attacking him on the road to ride off into the sunset was impossible because he could always catch your slipstream, why could not Cancellera do an inverted attack for 30km, where he dropped 300 metres behind Tommeke and let Tommeke hurt his own legs, more than Sparticus hurts his legs. Ofcourse, after 27km, he still needs to get past Tommeke, but it might be easier if he was on the rivet

 

[blackcat]

Allen Lim apparently felt that Floyd could've won ten TdFs against a clean field. As much as I enjoy the idea of that, I have to wonder how Lim could possibly make such an assessment without having worked closely with a decades worth of other possible podium contenders.

These things tend to be unanswerable by their very nature.

the australians will respond with Cuddles

 

[SundayRider]

Ah, but Floyd said as much during his excellent sit-down with Graham Bensinger. By then, the fuse had long been lit and an explosion/implosion of the Armstrong camp was imminent. Floyd had nothing to protect or preserve at that point. Same for Tyler. He had already pulled the pin yet still didn't downplay Lance as a rider.

Precisely. I would still like to hear from Frankie though, via Betsy.

Allen Lim apparently felt that Floyd could've won ten TdFs against a clean field. As much as I enjoy the idea of that, I have to wonder how Lim could possibly make such an assessment without having worked closely with a decades worth of other possible podium contenders.

These things tend to be unanswerable by their very nature.

I agree plenty of people have criticised Lance as a person off the bike (and obviously rightly so) however very few riders he rode with/against have any negative comments about his ability as a rider.

 

[Granville57]

What is perhaps a better indication of "natural ability" can be found in what a rider was capable of in his youth, or in any case the early years of his career at the Tour.

I long felt this as well, but Race Radio's posts in the Jan Ullrich thread have caused me to reconsider this a bit.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/search.php?searchid=2665427

 

[Granville57]

the australians will respond with Cuddles

Others with Chris Horner.

And Froome...with himself.

 

[blackcat]

I long felt this as well, but Race Radio's posts in the Jan Ullrich thread have caused me to reconsider this a bit.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/search.php?searchid=2665427

about Udo Bolts saying he got dropped in training camps before Edgar?

 

[Granville57]

I agree plenty of people have criticised Lance as a person off the bike (and obviously rightly so) however very few riders he rode with/against have any negative comments about his ability as a rider.

With the interesting exception of his comeback during 2.0. Starting with the Tour Down Under, the buzz in the peloton (from what I remember reading) was that Lance was riding like a neo-pro, and scaring the bejezus out of those riding by his side.

This seemed to be a bit a theme throughout the comeback. We saw Lance suffer through more physical abuse as the result of crashes than ever before in his entire career. Others were able to return to the peloton (Vino, Basso, etc) after being away without facing the same sort of obstacles. Armstrong himself spoke of having to readjust to group riding and how difficult it was for him (please don't ask for the link. It's a Sunday and I've better things to do than search for old Armstrong quotes). He was, by his own admission, intimidated by it. Which I was surprised by, given his ruthless and antagonistic approach to...well, pretty much everything in life. But he did seem humbled by the prospect of being thrust back into the fray.

So maybe he was just a talentless wimp after all.

 

[ChrisE]

I agree plenty of people have criticised Lance as a person off the bike (and obviously rightly so) however very few riders he rode with/against have any negative comments about his ability as a rider.

Precisely. Only in the bowels of the clinic do we hear such 'opinion'. Even Bassons recently was promoting LA's talent, saying he still would've won those tours in a clean peloton.

This is where it all diverges, true? I can think just as little of LA as a person as anybody in here, but I refuse to buy into the pack fodder BS. Or my belief that the powers that be in the sport have a vested interest in no AAFs happening which causes other consternation. How soon we forget the UCI trying to cover up AC's positive, and I am not so naïve to think it didn't happen all the time.

 

[blackcat]

Precisely. Only in the bowels of the clinic do we hear such 'opinion'. Even Bassons recently was promoting LA's talent, saying he still would've won those tours in a clean peloton.

This is where it all diverges, true? I can think just as little of LA as a person as anybody in here, but I refuse to buy into the pack fodder BS. Or my belief that the powers that be in the sport have a vested interest in no AAFs happening which causes other consternation. How soon we forget the UCI trying to cover up AC's positive, and I am not so naïve to think it didn't happen all the time.

i think CB mean Chris, if everyone was clean, and Lance was dirty, Lance woulda still won!

 

[Neworld]

Ah, but Floyd said as much during his excellent sit-down with Graham Bensinger. By then, the fuse had long been lit and an explosion/implosion of the Armstrong camp was imminent. Floyd had nothing to protect or preserve at that point. Same for Tyler. He had already pulled the pin yet still didn't downplay Lance as a rider..

...other than if either one of them sat down with the 'real' confession and slayed Lance on every point..."Lance was a cheater, a liar, a bully, in bed with the UCI...AND he wasn't great just good."

Then the credibility of their stories would have been interpreted as a merely petulant. They were, and are, being calculated.

 

[rhubroma]

Precisely. Only in the bowels of the clinic do we hear such 'opinion'. Even Bassons recently was promoting LA's talent, saying he still would've won those tours in a clean peloton.

This is where it all diverges, true? I can think just as little of LA as a person as anybody in here, but I refuse to buy into the pack fodder BS. Or my belief that the powers that be in the sport have a vested interest in no AAFs happening which causes other consternation. How soon we forget the UCI trying to cover up AC's positive, and I am not so naïve to think it didn't happen all the time.

Those who touted his "abilities" were either scared or bought. Whereas Alberto's case merely highlighted the depth within which the UCI was steeped in the sh!t after LA.

It is plainly evident, however, that AC has a class of an entirely different league.

Armstrong was so relient upon assistance that he couldn't afford to be really good other than June and July. Therein lies the world of difference. Put the Ferrari engine in the Volkswagen, but don't make the carriage break. Gotta be careful, ya know. Ha, ha, ha.

 

[ChrisE]

Those who touted his "abilities" were either scared or bought. Whereas Alberto's case merely highlighted the depth within which the UCI was steeped in the sh!t after LA.

It is plainly evident, however, that AC has a class of an entirely different league.

Armstrong was so relient upon assistance that he couldn't afford to be really good other than June and July. Therein lies the world of difference. Put the Ferrari engine in the Volkswagen, but don't make the carriage break. Gotta be careful, ya know. Ha, ha, ha.

Yes, cover up in cycling was invented by LA. Just off the top of my hung over head, I remember the 'technicalities' over Delgado's positive in 88.

Think what you want, rubarb. We will not agree; that is why I didn't reply to your last post but you persist on hounding me on this. I know you are probably bored right now but you will need to find a more willing adversary. You also need to get over LA letting your doped up midget hero win on Mont Ventoux in 2000. Take care.

 

[rhubroma]

Yes, cover up in cycling was invented by LA. Just off the top of my hung over head, I remember the 'technicalities' over Delgado's positive in 88.

Think what you want, rubarb. We will not agree; that is why I didn't reply to your last post but you persist on hounding me on this. I know you are probably bored right now but you will need to find a more willing adversary. You also need to get over LA letting your doped up midget hero win on Mont Ventoux in 2000. Take care.

We don't agree, because you don't know what you're talking about.

What has Delgado's plight got to do with any of this? LA was only good at the Tour, because he simply didn't have the class to be good at the Tour and elsewhere. Herein lies the difference between a mediocre fraud and an exceptional one. Take away the fraud and all that's left is the mediocrity.

Right just like LA didn't have to face the midget, before other interests took over or else real touble for him. Though I couldn't care less Chrisy.

 

[Neworld]

We don't agree, because you don't know what you're talking about.

What has Delgado's plight got to do with any of this? LA was only good at the Tour, because he simply didn't have the class to be good at the Tour and elsewhere. Herein lies the difference between a mediocre fraud and an exceptional one. Take away the fraud and all that's left is the mediocrity.

Rhubroma,

ChrisE makes a point of stating that he "doesn't have time to discuss points..." when he can no longer protect the last bastion of his LA love affair: now arguing LA's "Amazing athletic" abilities are really "undeniable man, really!"

Almost everything LA has done is within reasonable doubt. The ship has sunk and James Cameron is using a Bathescope to see if there is anything factual at all left to chat about.

PS: When Delgado should have been jettisoned, and Rooks was out...Parra would have won.

 

[ChrisE]

Rhubroma,

ChrisE makes a point of stating that he "doesn't have time to discuss points..." when he can no longer protect the last bastion of his LA love affair: now arguing LA's "Amazing athletic" abilities are really "undeniable man, really!"

Almost everything LA has done is within reasonable doubt. The ship has sunk and James Cameron is using a Bathescope to see if there is anything factual at all left to chat about.

PS: When Delgado should have been jettisoned, and Rooks was out...Parra would have won.

No, I have time to 'discuss points' if they aren't pulled from somebody's colon, promoted as black and white fact. I only replied to Dave because I consider him a friend who has gone back several years on other websites. You and rubarb do not have that history with me, so if that means I don't have time to discuss these issues revolving around your prejudiced delusions, so be it.

 

[rhubroma]

No, I have time to 'discuss points' if they aren't pulled from somebody's colon, promoted as black and white fact. I only replied to Dave because I consider him a friend who has gone back several years on other websites. You and rubarb do not have that history with me, so if that means I don't have time to discuss these issues revolving around your prejudiced delusions, so be it.

Come on Chrisy, you don't have to get all soar about it now. And after all we've been through!

PS. You accuse others of precisely your own crimes. It's terrible when one condfuses an a$$hole for a mouth, all that comes out is a load of crapola.

 

[Dave_1]

Fair enough, you want my honest opinion...

It was an arms race being played out at different levels of advantage, in which transeconomics and transgovernance resulted in rendering things apparently equal that were in reality not the same.

What I'm saying is that the arms race itself, and the fact that it could never create a level playing field for these reasons, only enhanced the artificial world thus created.

What is perhaps a better indication of "natural ability" can be found in what a rider was capable of in his youth, or in any case the early years of his career at the Tour.

Answer the question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rhubroma]

Answer the question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I did, if you're to thick to understand that's not my problem.

 

[Dave_1]

I did, if you're to thick to understand that's not my problem.

you wrote some tangentially related spiel that avoids issue of what all riders in that era faced! Use or don't use? Quit or stay and dope? WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY AS A RIDER????? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT QUESTION???????

 

[rhubroma]

you wrote some tangentially related spiel that avoids issue of what all riders in that era faced! Use or don't use? Quit or stay and dope? WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY AS A RIDER????? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT QUESTION???????

What practically all riders in every era have faced.

But to your inane and rather puerile inquires, I'd never have done what he did because I'm incapable. Not because I'm holier than thou, but simply because I don't have within the type of arrogance, ruthlessness and brazenness needed to do what he did. If anything this was his special talent. And it was no less than cultivating ‘invincibility’ in becoming the mafia boss of cycling, which transcended his status as mere doped athlete in creating an appalling conflict of interests none of his rivals could take advantage of. One by one they were popped, either during or after, except him. That's power, not talent.

Such a power position only multiplied the fraud, beyond all measure. As has been said over and over again, it wasn't just the doping, but the ruthless pursuit of gaining an edge, of unscrupulously eliminating as much as humanly possible all chance of defeat, that didn't involve merely doping, but systemic support. All the while his American fan base and mass media were too stupid and clueless to do anything else but surrender to the fable.

I don’t think any other cyclist had his unique ability to manipulate everything and stack the odds in his favor, for which athleticism played only a relative part. This dialectic goes beyond a mere discussion about activeness vs. passiveness and into the diabolical.

 

[blackcat]

on the activeness v passiveness @rhubroma

this is reconciled when the individual makes a choice to pursue a professional cycling career.

you have a discreet selective sample in the peloton bloc.

doping is the barrier to entry, and it is not a binary: passive v active.

its a spectrum