Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[DirtyWorks]

is it possible, as we are supposed to believe in martin's case, that he only discovered the hayfever in his mid twenties?
isn't that something you find out a lot earlier?

Anecdotally, from personal experience, it's possible.

 

[red_flanders]

I get your reasoning, but classics ended in mass spurts pre-epo as well.

Which classics? There's San Remo and Paris-Tours, and there is Roubaix and LBL. Extremely different races.

 

[red_flanders]

What I don't think is a good sign for clean cycling is whole pelotons at seemingly the same level.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

lol, very nice red.

 

[red_flanders]

lol, very nice red.

Asterix is genius. The predictive scenarios here are amazing.

 

[hrotha]

Exactly! Beautifully done!

 

[Franklin]

Which classics? There's San Remo and Paris-Tours, and there is Roubaix and LBL. Extremely different races.

AGR and FW for example. And before you begin: that includes the pre-epo era

What I'm getting at, is that one sprint finish is simply not enough to suddenly cry "OMG THE END IS COMING!".

1. Generally we think cycling is better than 1995-2005.
2. In that era we didn't have sprint finishes in LBL.

I'm not believing for a second cycling is clean, but this is just one occurence and clearly one that actually is quite different from the VDB era. I don't see how we can draw conclusions from it.

And Asterix rocks hard !

 

[pmcg76]

What I don't think is a good sign for clean cycling is whole pelotons at seemingly the same level.

I think this is an interesting point. I didn't know that since 2004, the bunch started to arrive intact at the foot of the Mur de Huy in Fleche Wallone turning it into a sprint up the hill, hence the increase in speeds.

Back pre EPO you had riders breaking away and usually finishing alone or in small groups. The same occured in the EPO era but there were some very impressive solo rides as well. Argentin won solo from 60km out in 91, Fondriest won from 50km solo in 93 and then there was the Gewiss TTT in 94. Of course L-B-L has evoled as well over the years.

It's hard to know as you would expect at the height of the EPO era for everyone to be more likely to arrive together. I just wonder how doping since 2004 would have levelled the playing field. Is it down to better team tactics/better level of domestiques or are the top riders afraid of attacking from far out as they are possibly no longer doped to the gills.

Just as an aside, in 1990 the top 700 pros were spread across almost 50 teams. Nowadays the same figure are spread across 25 teams(Approximate figures, not an exact science). I would think that as a result, most current teams would have a much deeper roster as the stronger riders are spread across less teams.

 

[red_flanders]

AGR and FW for example. And before you begin: that includes the pre-epo era

What I'm getting at, is that one sprint finish is simply not enough to suddenly cry "OMG THE END IS COMING!".

1. Generally we think cycling is better than 1995-2005.
2. In that era we didn't have sprint finishes in LBL.

I'm not believing for a second cycling is clean, but this is just one occurence and clearly one that actually is quite different from the VDB era. I don't see how we can draw conclusions from it.

And Asterix rocks hard !

Yes, agree that one large group in LBL isn't a trend. Pre epo though you rarely saw groups larger than 4-5 coming into the finale. This year it seemed like large groups in all the Ardennes classics. Hope it doesn't continue.

 

[Franklin]

Yes, agree that one large group in LBL isn't a trend. Pre epo though you rarely saw groups larger than 4-5 coming into the finale. This year it seemed like large groups in all the Ardennes classics. Hope it doesn't continue.

It's a bit hard to say considering the finale changed in a dramatic way. If we look at FW (before, during and after epo) tentatively we could say that uphill finishes are making riders ride defensive.

It's pretty amazing that indeed the way classics is ridden isn't that different... except LBL. And guess what, they changed that classic the most (ok RvV too, but that will have repercusions as well).

I don't claim epo made no difference, FAR from it! But look at MSR... it's still a carbon copy of the Saronni/Fignon years. Sometimes a sprint, somtimes a lone guy.

Roubaix? Kuiper/Hinault versus Musseuw/Cancellara. Different jet-fuel, but same tactical plan. And sprinting with a small group for Roubaix? Hello Vanderaerden.

AGR? Changed so much it's a bit hard to say, but this years finish compares pretty well to Hinault/Raas/ludwig bunch sprints.

Tentatively: I'd say tactics changed most in the grand tours, not so much in classics.


Oh and I'll be a lone guy here: The old "easy" LBL finish was much better and gave more chances for breakaways. As the AGR and FW has shown for a long time, uphill finishes suck.

 

[the sceptic]

I thought Dan Martin was supposed to fade in the 3rd week, not improve?

climbing alongside Valverde and Rodriguez and almost as fast as Cobo in 2011. Not buying it.

 

[hrotha]

climbing alongside Valverde and Rodriguez

This didn't happen.

 

[the sceptic]

This didn't happen.

a few seconds behind then.

 

[Cycle Chic]

a few seconds behind then.

yeh if those guys are juiced then Dan Martin is not far behind. Yesterday he fell down a ravine and still managed to finish up there with the climbers.

 

[proffate]

Dan's doing a good job of bobbing up and down more than his rivals, but I guess if looking awkward is a sign of clean riding then Froome is a saint.

 

[elduggo]

I thought Dan Martin was supposed to fade in the 3rd week, not improve?

climbing alongside Valverde and Rodriguez and almost as fast as Cobo in 2011. Not buying it.

yeah his TT is a dead giveaway

oh wait....

 

[happytramp]

I thought Dan Martin was supposed to fade in the 3rd week, not improve?

climbing alongside Valverde and Rodriguez and almost as fast as Cobo in 2011. Not buying it.

Amazing! It's finally happened. Bravo. I've always wondered what's the least a person had to do in a grand tour to convince "people" they were doping. Apparently finishing behind all the main favorites in every single stage and losing nearly 3min in a time trial is all it takes. Ha Ha, love it!

 

[Walkman]

Amazing! It's finally happened. Bravo. I've always wondered what's the least a person had to do in a grand tour to convince "people" they were doping. Apparently finishing behind all the main favorites in every single stage and losing nearly 3min in a time trial is all it takes. Ha Ha, love it!

The Contador fans always wants to mark everyone a doper to take the heat of A.C. Contador is a rider with one of the dirtiest histories and has been sanctioned but as soon as someone makes a decent performance, you can be sure he will be called a doper by the Contador crowd.

 

[BYOP88]

The Contador fans always wants to mark everyone a doper to take the heat of A.C. Contador is the rider with the dirtiest history and has been sanctioned but as soon as someone makes a decent performance, you can be sure he will be called a doper by the Contador crowd.

I think that Contador is a doper(should be serving a life ban), I also think that Martin is a doper too.

 

[Walkman]

I think that Contador is a doper(should be serving a life ban), I also think that Martin is a doper too.

And you have every right to that opinion. But are you a Contador fan? And even if you were, you are not trying to tell me how much of a cheater Martin is. There is difference of expressing one's opinion and trying to force it on people.

 

[Big Doopie]

The Contador fans always wants to mark everyone a doper to take the heat of A.C. Contador is a rider with one of the dirtiest histories and has been sanctioned but as soon as someone makes a decent performance, you can be sure he will be called a doper by the Contador crowd.

Bingo.

Dan Martin is clean and Clentadoppucci is a known serial doper.

The fact that Dan Martin can win a one day race like LBL, and be 6th in gc at the Vuelta after two weeks is a testament to the fact that he is one if not the most naturally talented rider of his generation. The fact that a serial doper keeps beating him hardly means that he is doping.

 

[SeriousSam]

Contador may have doped in the past but he's clearly been clean for years now, right? Unless you think testing negative isn't convincing evidence of being clean, that is.

In which case... why are we convinced Dan Martin is clean again? Because he hasn't tested positive yet? Now that's some coherent thinking.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Bingo.

Dan Martin is clean and Clentadoppucci is a known serial doper.

The fact that Dan Martin can win a one day race like LBL, and be 6th in gc at the Vuelta after two weeks is a testament to the fact that he is one if not the most naturally talented rider of his generation. The fact that a serial doper keeps beating him hardly means that he is doping.

Surely this is a joke, right?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Contador may have doped in the past but he's clearly been clean for years now, right? Unless you think testing negative isn't convincing evidence of being clean, that is.

In which case... why are we convinced Dan Martin is clean again? Because he hasn't tested positive yet? Now that's some coherent thinking.

So your argument is that not testing positive is proof of being a doper? Brilliant.

 

[hrotha]

Contador is a doper. Martin may or may not be. It largely depends on how cleanish you think the peloton currently is.

To state that he is definitely clean is folly.

But many of the arguments being used here to say he's a doper are just silly.