Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[gooner]

How can something like that not be banned? It's ridiculous.

I'd like it banned but take it up with the relevant authorities who have failed to do so as of this moment.

Guys can take this as a smoking gun against a team if they wish but this will not stick. It reminds me of the same stuff that was thrown at Kittel over his past even though that procedure wasn't banned at the time.

 

[martinvickers]

How can something like that not be banned? It's ridiculous.

Ridiculous is not equal to prohibited. You may not like reality. Tough. Reality doesn't care.

We have the same arguments years ago about blood doping, before blood doping was banned. Eventually, it was. Good. But it doesn't make those who used it before the ban drug cheats, unless they continued afterwards.

Personally, I'd like to see it banned. I think the Prentice is right, it's not ethically sound, and may well be on the border of illegal already depending on how you interpret the rules. But I know the difference between what I would like, and what actually is.

Or, as my uncle never tired of saying when told that certain things 'should' be a certain way...

" 'Should' isn't worth sh!t. "

Ban it. Find a test for it. Catch some cheats. move on.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

How can something like that not be banned? It's ridiculous.

Maybe so but you are trying to spin it as if the 'clean' teams are doping then what are the doping teams doing. When all you have is a suggestion that Garmin looked at using a non-doping product.

 

[SundayRider]

Maybe so but you are trying to spin it as if the 'clean' teams are doping then what are the doping teams doing. When all you have is a suggestion that Garmin looked at using a non-doping product.

Might not be a banned practice but it's definitely not in the spirit of the rules. Someone doing Xenon is going to dope as well, just the way it is.

 

[blackcat]

Might not be a banned practice but it's definitely not in the spirit of the rules. Someone doing Xenon is going to dope as well, just the way it is.

might get it confused for a faxsimile. think about it, sticking their **** on the photocopier in the christmas party, wanting to take a picture of their bum. accidentally, a Xenon suppository!

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Whattttttt???

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Might not be a banned practice but it's definitely not in the spirit of the rules. Someone doing Xenon is going to dope as well, just the way it is.

So if someone attack in the feeding zone we can state that they are a doper because it is not in the spirit of the rules? If they do that they are going to dope. That is just the way it is?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

might get it confused for a faxsimile. think about it, sticking their **** on the photocopier in the christmas party, wanting to take a picture of their bum. accidentally, a Xenon suppository!

lol, you are cracking me up.

 

[SundayRider]

So if someone attack in the feeding zone we can state that they are a doper because it is not in the spirit of the rules? If they do that they are going to dope. That is just the way it is?

Anti-doping rules and the 'rules on the road' are two totally different things. If your going to take a drug that is not yet banned or that the authorities do not know about or cannot test for - what is the difference compared to taking something that is 'officially' banned. Very little difference.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Anti-doping rules and the 'rules on the road' are two totally different things. If your going to take a drug that is not yet banned or that the authorities do not know about or cannot test for - what is the difference compared to taking something that is 'officially' banned. Very little difference.

Is it banned under the existing rules or not?

 

[martinvickers]

Might not be a banned practice but it's definitely not in the spirit of the rules. Someone doing Xenon is going to dope as well, just the way it is.

Says who, SR? Where's the evidence for this beyond your own hunch?

Sure, some will look for any advantage, legal or illegal; they'll do their Xenon and then their other gear.
Or some will see the doping rules as lines they may not cross, and look for every OTHER way of lifting performance.

For example Obree's postions (later banned). Or Lemond's tribars (not). Are they both dopers? Just the way it is?

Personally, I agree with Prentice - it's not entirely ethically sound, although it's rather closer in method to altitude training and altitude tents than injecting. But in any event, till it's banned, it's not. and that's all there is to it. Just the way it is, as somebody might say.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Just the way it is, as somebody might say.

Bruce Hornsby..?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So Rominger wasn't using EPO in his brilliant 87 and 88 results but was in his reasonable 89 and crap 90? What sense does that make?

Just follow the right lines:

1987 sitzt Tony Rominger in einem Trainingslager, "ich war 26, ich hatte im Jahr zuvor drei Siege erzielt, aber keine Vertragsverlängerung bekommen. Ein italienischer Sponsor gab mir eine Chance, ich kam im Januar in die Mannschaft, dann Langlauflager in den Dolomiten, ich saß da, im Nachhinein müsste man sagen, mit Depressionen. Ich sagte, ist das alles wirklich das, was du willst? Das war der schlimmste Moment, das war sehr nahe am Aufhören." In diesem Lager lernt er den jungen Trainer Michele Ferrari kennen.

http://www.zeit.de/2005/27/Tour_27

Romingers Hämatokritpegel weist laut den Unterlagen von 1989 bis 1996 regelmäßig Sch****ungen von bis zu zwölf Prozent innerhalb weniger Monate auf. Der erste Wert liegt am 21. Oktober 1989 auf dem Level eines jungen, gesunden, im Ausdauersport trainierten Mannes, auf 38,8. Dem Dopingjäger zufolge war das Tony Romingers normales Hämatokritlevel. Die Werte steigen vor und während Wettkampfphasen auf 48,2. Auf 50. 52. 55,5. Klettern auf bis zu 56,5 gegen Ende seiner Karriere. Sinken in nicht wettkampfrelevanten Phasen, etwa auf 39,0 am 27. Februar 1992. Aus Sicht vieler Ärzte gibt es für so hohe Sch****ungen keine natürliche Erklärung. Stattdessen gibt es Korrelationen hoher Werte mit wichtigen Rennphasen und Notizen über teilweise unglaubliche Mengen von Eisenbeigaben.

From 39 to a nice 55,5. That is only 40-45% gain...

My conclusion? Lab rat of il dottore, his personal idiot willing to do anything:

Erster Schritt der Methode Ferrari, wie sie sich dem Dopingjäger zufolge aus Erklärungen geständiger Fahrer kristallisiert: "Ferrari fragt: Sag mir deine Trainingsmethoden, Resultate, deine Ernährung." Dann Blutanalysen. "Er sagt: Mit deiner Ausstattung könntest du unter bestimmten Bedingungen viel erreichen." Phase zwei, "Ferrari gibt Nahrungszusätze. So lernt er den Charakter des Fahrers kennen. Wozu ist er bereit, wie groß ist seine Intelligenz, sein Hunger?" Ferrari kennt die Sportlerpsyche, er war Mittelstreckenläufer, Nationalteam. Er misst Rominger noch im Dolomiten-Lager aus, sagt ihm, seine Oberschenkel hätten die gleiche Hebelkraft wie die von Eddy Merckx. "An einem Abend", sagt Rominger später, "ist er zu mir gekommen und hat gesagt: Du könntest ein ganz Großer werden. Er hat sonst nie Komplimente gemacht. Aber ich habe das auch nicht gebraucht."

 

[sniper]

Says who, SR? Where's the evidence for this beyond your own hunch?

Sure, some will look for any advantage, legal or illegal; they'll do their Xenon and then their other gear.
Or some will see the doping rules as lines they may not cross, and look for every OTHER way of lifting performance.

For example Obree's postions (later banned). Or Lemond's tribars (not). Are they both dopers? Just the way it is?

Personally, I agree with Prentice - it's not entirely ethically sound, although it's rather closer in method to altitude training and altitude tents than injecting. But in any event, till it's banned, it's not. and that's all there is to it. Just the way it is, as somebody might say.

prentice's xenon comments could just be another "perception is reality" kind of PR balloon. "Look at us, being concerned about what is legal and what not."
but i agree there isn't much to the xenon story.

More questionable to me is why prentice endulges the presence of weltz on team garmin. he quite unambiguously called weltz a dangerous drugcheat in the late 90s.

 

[martinvickers]

prentice's xenon comments could just be another "perception is reality" kind of PR balloon. "Look at us, being concerned about what is legal and what not."
but i agree there isn't much to the xenon story.

More questionable to me is why prentice endulges the presence of weltz on team garmin. he quite unambiguously called weltz a dangerous drugcheat in the late 90s.

To me, Xenon, being entirely inert, seems like a very slightly less harmful version of the carbon monoxide wheeze that was all the rage here a couple of months back. Yes, I know, i know, it's not biochemically the same at all, but it just seems to me, sometimes, the clinic is looking harder for the doping holy grail than some of the teams are!

p.s fair point on prentice

 

[jens_attacks]

Whattttttt???

you will feel strong after watching this pic

 

[SundayRider]

Says who, SR? Where's the evidence for this beyond your own hunch?

Sure, some will look for any advantage, legal or illegal; they'll do their Xenon and then their other gear.
Or some will see the doping rules as lines they may not cross, and look for every OTHER way of lifting performance.

For example Obree's postions (later banned). Or Lemond's tribars (not). Are they both dopers? Just the way it is?

Personally, I agree with Prentice - it's not entirely ethically sound, although it's rather closer in method to altitude training and altitude tents than injecting. But in any event, till it's banned, it's not. and that's all there is to it. Just the way it is, as somebody might say.

Just a hunch but my belief is if your willing to push it right to the line of what is legal or not then your pretty likely to step over that line without too much thought.

 

[GuyIncognito]

things

Of course I agree with all that, who wouldn't but what does any of that have to do with whether he started EPO in 89 or 91?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Of course I agree with all that, who wouldn't but what does any of that have to do with whether he started EPO in 89 or 91?

Nothing, good observation.

My point in that previous post was that Epo was pretty known already in 1989, when a small time team like Caja Rural had it, heard of it etc etc, does one think the big teams, the big dottores at Chateau, Carrera, Del Tongo etc etc werent aware of it? Perhaps like Prentice Steffen 'they looked into it but found it unethical', I find that hard to believe.

Rominger started on something in 1987. Thats for sure. Switzerland, a great country to shop.

And yet Rominger got beaten more often than winning, dopers can be beaten, to get back on topic

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

It kinda makes sense that the lower-level riders and smaller teams would be the first to adapt new doping methods ... being more desperate to improve?

 

[pmcg76]

This thread went badly awry over the last few days.

Anyway I have yet to see an reasonable explanation how LeMond might have beaten riders on EPO other than he was such a huge talent, this despite the fact that LeMond has been on record as saying he was never the athlete he was after the shooting accident and that he dropped out of that Tour a few days after the TT.

Also, I have yet to see anyone explain properly how LeMond is such a bigger talent than Dan Martin when LeMond's credentials were establisehed in the pre EPO whilst Dan Martin is racing in a much more sosphisticated doping era according to some. If LeMond were riding today, would he be winning the Tour? How good would he be? Why is it that if LeMond was such a superior talent that he never won a classic like Merckx or Hinault for example.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

\Why is it that if LeMond was such a superior talent that he never won a classic like Merckx or Hinault for example.

He did win a couple of worlds and placed high a number of times in a many of the classics.

 

[Benotti69]

..........


Why is it that if LeMond was such a superior talent that he never won a classic like Merckx or Hinault for example.

Merckx and Hinault doped

 

[pmcg76]

He did win a couple of worlds and placed high a number of times in a many of the classics.

Yes, I am quite aware of that.

People believe that LeMond was such an incredibly superior talent that he could beat guys on EPO yet he wasn't always able to beat guys in one day classics in his own era.

 

[pmcg76]

Merckx and Hinault doped

So what, LeMond could beat dopers, even EPO dopers such was his genetic superiority.