Danilo is caught.

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I don't think most said that but I certainly was one of those - although if you look at the thread it was to do with this Tour.

Where I based that theory was on the UCI taking over the ani-doping controls from AFLD - actually I would love to be proved wrong and enjoy the taste of 'humble pie' than be served the bland dish of the cleanest ever Tour.

You have to wait! It took almost 2 months to get DiLuca and he was targeted. So the logic is: Astana is targeted, some spanish riders are. So i guess Contador (riding the same style as DiLuca at the giro) and some kind of Astarloza, Sanchez Gil will be caught. So we all here really have to hope Epo-Lance does not finish 2nd in CG.

I think the Labors did a very good job since last year. I dont think they can cover up Contador (for example).

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I have very little doubt Menchov wasn't clean at the Giro. Want to see a clean Menchov? Watch this Tour. Seriously. I think he's scared straight after the heat started to come down on him, plus the extra testing. He's currently in 44th place, 48 minutes back, with the final ITT and Ventoux to go. Take away the crashes, and he'd only be about 45 minutes back.

DiLuca has been hammering away like that since about 2005 when he went from a good classics rider, to a top Giro contender. However, as Sheltowee so aptly put it:

There are no virgins in procycling. But then, virginity is over rated anyhow.

Post of the week there, my friend!

As I and others have said, the majority of riders at this level are doped to one degree or another. I do think we're seeing things a bit cleaner, and likely more clean riders than in several years, with doping more discrete than in the past. But it's still obviously being done, frequently, and most often at the highest level. So the one "good" thing about this isn't that they caught a cheater, so to speak, but that they apparently caught one of the more egregious cheaters. At least one can hope.

Chief Wiggum (McQuaid) said this would not count as a second, "lifetime ban" positive if it holds up. But I do agree Danilo will probably retire.

How many languages do you read, Bala?!

 

[BroDeal]

I have very little doubt Menchov wasn't clean at the Giro. Want to see a clean Menchov? Watch this Tour. Seriously. I think he's scared straight after the heat started to come down on him, plus the extra testing. He's currently in 44th place, 48 minutes back, with the final ITT and Ventoux to go. Take away the crashes, and he'd only be about 45 minutes back.

If Menchov is riding clean and getting killed then what does that say about the riders in the top ten?

 

[elapid]

If Menchov is riding clean and getting killed then what does that say about the riders in the top ten?

What about the top four riders from the 2008 TdF: Sastre (1st in 2008; now 13th at 11:39), Evans (2nd in 2008; now 32nd at 37:08), Menchov, and Vande Velde (4th in 2008; now 8th at 8:08)? Was the 2008 TdF as clean as it is going to get?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

To make a wild speculation, taking from what Cobblestones said in another thread, I'm going to guess that the riders at the top here are doing less autologous blood doping, some light HGH and IGF. But with more testing, we very well could see the riders you just listed on a very low program, or maybe even clean. Evans performance looks like he got a final top off just before the Tour started and now the tank is empty. And Menchov has to be riding clean since the Giro, at 48 minutes back, and counting.

I have to say with the way Astana got away with showing up late for controls and everyone looking the other way, in this moment in the sport with the results, time gaps to the aforementioned riders, and power outputs we're seeing, it looks increasingly negative.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

To make a wild speculation, taking from what Cobblestones said in another thread, I'm going to guess that the riders at the top here are doing less autologous blood doping, some light HGH and IGF. But with more testing, we very well could see the riders you just listed on a very low program, or maybe even clean. Evans performance looks like he got a final top off just before the Tour started and now the tank is empty. And Menchov has to be riding clean since the Giro, at 48 minutes back, and counting.

I have to say with the way Astana got away with showing up late for controls and everyone looking the other way, in this moment in the sport with the results, time gaps to the aforementioned riders, and power outputs we're seeing, it looks increasingly negative.

So that means the more we have to hope Schleck does not finish behind Epo-Lance? Because at Saxo, they didnt do what Astana did.

 

[Bala Verde]

Since the vampires switched to coffee, you're guaranteed the 'cleanest' tour ever.

Weren't they looking for cafeine? Isn't that still on the list?

How many languages do you read, Bala?!

Only the roman and west germanic languages... If my cycling abilities only marginally reflected my ability to express myself in the most important cycling languages, I'd be a clean top 10 contender

If Menchov is riding clean and getting killed then what does that say about the riders in the top ten?

Does anyone have a palmares of his youngster/neo-pro years. I can't recall that he was such a great cyclist in his junior years, but I could be wrong...

 

[Anonymous]

Danilo caught...no, REALLLLLY?????

 

[rhubroma]

I've raced against DiLuca (6 years ago) and perhaps because I didn't think I could have ridden with the best world class athletes, but held my own, I never believed he was legit.

 

[Anonymous]

What about the top four riders from the 2008 TdF: Sastre (1st in 2008; now 13th at 11:39), Evans (2nd in 2008; now 32nd at 37:08), Menchov, and Vande Velde (4th in 2008; now 8th at 8:08)? Was the 2008 TdF as clean as it is going to get?

elapid, THAT is the million dollar question.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

To make a wild speculation, taking from what Cobblestones said in another thread, I'm going to guess that the riders at the top here are doing less autologous blood doping, some light HGH and IGF. But with more testing, we very well could see the riders you just listed on a very low program, or maybe even clean. Evans performance looks like he got a final top off just before the Tour started and now the tank is empty. And Menchov has to be riding clean since the Giro, at 48 minutes back, and counting.

I have to say with the way Astana got away with showing up late for controls and everyone looking the other way, in this moment in the sport with the results, time gaps to the aforementioned riders, and power outputs we're seeing, it looks increasingly negative.

But as i said before, HGH and all else then "Extra-Blood" does not work. So we would have a placebo-clean 2nd (if Schleck makes it) since many many many Years.

Soon i´ll send all the links for those studies.

 

[dienekes88]

What about the top four riders from the 2008 TdF: Sastre (1st in 2008; now 13th at 11:39), Evans (2nd in 2008; now 32nd at 37:08), Menchov, and Vande Velde (4th in 2008; now 8th at 8:08)? Was the 2008 TdF as clean as it is going to get?

Interesting question. The 2008 Tour was pretty quick, and people on this board are insinuating that Menchov wasn't clean. Sastre's truly remarkable attacks at Alpe d'Huez '08 and in this year's Giro are a huge contrast to his performance this year. Some might say the team change has affected him significantly... some might say that maybe he's also been "scared straight" as Alpe d'Huez suggests about Menchov.

I have very little doubt Menchov wasn't clean at the Giro. Want to see a clean Menchov? Watch this Tour. Seriously. I think he's scared straight after the heat started to come down on him, plus the extra testing. He's currently in 44th place, 48 minutes back, with the final ITT and Ventoux to go. Take away the crashes, and he'd only be about 45 minutes back.

Well, another possibility is that Menchov's dominance in the Giro was his peak for the year. In the past he has done well (but not phenomenally) in two GTs in a year, but that may be Levi-Syndrome, i.e. holding a plateau of very solid form for too long.

The other option - and the option that relies on suspending disbelief - is that Menchov is just too gassed post Giro. He didn't race at all between the Giro and the Tour in the hope that he could rebuild/hold his form.

DiLuca has been hammering away like that since about 2005 when he went from a good classics rider, to a top Giro contender. However, as Sheltowee so aptly put it:

Post of the week there, my friend!

And he's been a jerk while doing it too! I flew to Italy to watch the 2007 Giro. I wanted to tackle him during the final TT...

As I and others have said, the majority of riders at this level are doped to one degree or another. I do think we're seeing things a bit cleaner, and likely more clean riders than in several years, with doping more discrete than in the past. But it's still obviously being done, frequently, and most often at the highest level. So the one "good" thing about this isn't that they caught a cheater, so to speak, but that they apparently caught one of the more egregious cheaters. At least one can hope.

Chief Wiggum (McQuaid) said this would not count as a second, "lifetime ban" positive if it holds up. But I do agree Danilo will probably retire.

How many languages do you read, Bala?!

You have to wait! It took almost 2 months to get DiLuca and he was targeted. So the logic is: Astana is targeted, some spanish riders are. So i guess Contador (riding the same style as DiLuca at the giro) and some kind of Astarloza, Sanchez Gil will be caught. So we all here really have to hope Epo-Lance does not finish 2nd in CG.

I think the Labors did a very good job since last year. I dont think they can cover up Contador (for example).

If Astarloza and Sanchez Gil get caught... that would be terrible for the sport.

 

[craig1985]

Wouldn't surprise me if he (Menchov) got fired at the end of the season after his 'bad perfromance' he put in in the TdF. That is if he doesn't get caught before...

I guess he will join Katusha then...

 

[elapid]

But as i said before, HGH and all else then "Extra-Blood" does not work. So we would have a placebo-clean 2nd (if Schleck makes it) since many many many Years.

Soon i´ll send all the links for those studies.

See the following report to the Irish Sports Council Anti-Doping Committee. It is not scientific, but gives a pretty good summary of HGH and IGF, their limitations and why they should be included on the doping list. http://www.anado.org/documents/Buckley.pdf

This is a chapter from Performance-Enhancing Medications and Drugs of Abuse: http://books.google.com/books?id=S9Op9-kVa-kC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=hgh+doping&source=bl&ots=XhFjsY8k1Z&sig=4_RlZevoe2ked45G3iN6XFMr_d4&hl=en&ei=sYxnSo6EMoK0lAf9jZndDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8

While the scientific literature is doubtful of the beneficial effects of HGH and IGF, the power of these studies is not sufficient for elite athletes like professional cyclists. Also, they have only tested these hormones in isolation to the best of my knowledge and not in combination with each other or other drugs, like testosterone. But then again, the power of the mind is a wonderful thing!

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

See the following report to the Irish Sports Council Anti-Doping Committee. It is not scientific, but gives a pretty good summary of HGH and IGF, their limitations and why they should be included on the doping list. http://www.anado.org/documents/Buckley.pdf

This is a chapter from Performance-Enhancing Medications and Drugs of Abuse: http://books.google.com/books?id=S9Op9-kVa-kC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=hgh+doping&source=bl&ots=XhFjsY8k1Z&sig=4_RlZevoe2ked45G3iN6XFMr_d4&hl=en&ei=sYxnSo6EMoK0lAf9jZndDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8

While the scientific literature is doubtful of the beneficial effects of HGH and IGF, the power of these studies is not sufficient for elite athletes like professional cyclists. Also, they have only tested these hormones in isolation to the best of my knowledge and not in combination with each other or other drugs, like testosterone. But then again, the power of the mind is a wonderful thing!

Thanks for the links. As far as i looked into it, i did not found how much performance enhancing these products are.

Ok, you say in combination with different products it could work. Like in HIV-Therapy. Maybe. On the other hand: If you mix tooooo much chemicals, your performance (may) will decline because of mixing different side-effects too. For example one "medicine" makes you feel pretty awake (Amphetamine), while at night you took some "Sleeping-Pills" to be ready for the next days race. Its all counter-affecting. I think all those riders should have gone to school before listening to all those real sick "bike-docs". I truly believe Mottet was sooo good because he was clean, on sports diet, and no alc, cigaretts etc.

As Järmann said it: "I can not believe why all those riders take the other stuff when they have Epo".

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

So that means the more we have to hope Schleck does not finish behind Epo-Lance? Because at Saxo, they didnt do what Astana did.

Nah. But it does look really bad when a top team with high results shows up a half-hour late to controls, and officials don't seem to mind.

Only the roman and west germanic languages...

"Only"??? What, do you work for the State Department?!

Does anyone have a palmares of his youngster/neo-pro years. I can't recall that he was such a great cyclist in his junior years, but I could be wrong...

Wikipedia has a list of his pro wins going back to when he was 19. He has been pretty good for some time.

But as i said before, HGH and all else then "Extra-Blood" does not work. So we would have a placebo-clean 2nd (if Schleck makes it) since many many many Years.

HGH and IGF-1 may give minimal gains, and the rest a placebo, though Stuart Stevens said otherwise. "Extra blood", as in extra hemoglobin, hct, O2 carriers from blood doping or EPO/Cera, etc, that definitely gives gains, big gains. That can't be what you meant there.

Anyone remember Willy Voet's book on how Virenque had to have the "Time Trial Special" drug that was rumored to be out? Willy didn't want to mess with the refined program Richard was on, so he told him he would get it. But when it came time, in reality just injected Virenque with water and glucose. Virenque rode a great TT and said he had to get more of the stuff. Yes, the mind is very powerful.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

While the scientific literature is doubtful of the beneficial effects of HGH and IGF, the power of these studies is not sufficient for elite athletes like professional cyclists.

You are right on this. I think the same. But the other way: Because Pro-Cyclists are full trained to the maximum the body can give, the doping can not have as big an output as on Avg.-Athletes. The Avg.-Athlete has more energy left to be fulfilled by doping. So when i read of one of those Epo-Self-Tests where a german doc. improved 6% by using Epo (& other products) on a ride up to Alpe d Huez, i can certainly say Epo does not improve the power on pros by more then maybe 2-3 %. Which is, of course, still very much. So if DiLuca and the other Blood-Dopers are cuaght, the war is won.

Steroids/HGH only work in Power-Sports. It is VERY difficult to improve the long muscles (for speed, endurance) in comparison to the short muscles (for weight lifting, Bodybuilding etc.). Sorry for my english, but i dont know the translation for long and short muscles.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Nah. But it does look really bad when a top team with high results shows up a half-hour late to controls, and officials don't seem to mind.


"Only"??? What, do you work for the State Department?!

Wikipedia has a list of his pro wins going back to when he was 19. He has been pretty good for some time.


HGH and IGF-1 may give minimal gains, and the rest a placebo, though Stuart Stevens said otherwise. "Extra blood", as in extra hemoglobin, hct, O2 carriers from blood doping or EPO/Cera, etc, that definitely gives gains, big gains. That can't be what you meant there.

Anyone remember Willy Voet's book on how Virenque had to have the "Time Trial Special" drug that was rumored to be out? Willy didn't want to mess with the refined program Richard was on, so he told him he would get it. But when it came time, in reality just injected Virenque with water and glucose. Virenque rode a great TT and said he had to get more of the stuff. Yes, the mind is very powerful.

Ja, its very difficult to translate german thinking into english writing I always have a tough time with it.

Of course i meant "Extra-Blood" (Epo, transfusion etc.) works, while all the other products should not be used by an intelligent rider because they dont work. So i meant, if the passport works real good and soon the self-infusions will be detectable, we could have a clean 2nd (Schleck) on placebo (thinking the tooken HGH, IGF works). I said clean 2nd, because of the Astana-Affair. But as i guessed before on this thread today, Contador will be caught like DiLuca. We only have to wait 2 Months. So all should hope Lance does not finish 2nd. For that: Go Schleck, we´ll have a clean Placebo-Winner

I was reading it too (about Virenque).

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

So here are the links, that everything is placebo.

They are all in german. So may someone can translate them

http://www.aerztezeitung.de/medizin/fachbereiche/sonstige_fachbereiche/sportmedizin/?sid=507213

Its about Epo, that it works different then tought before. That too much Epo (too high hct) can decrease your performance.

http://news.doccheck.com/de/article/131174-doping-legal-mit-placebo-aufs-treppchen/

Its all placebo with strong painkillers (morphine).

http://www.aerztlichepraxis.de/artikel_allgemeinmedizin_sportmedizin_doping_1190209794.htm

All placebo with HGH

http://www.aerzteblatt.de/v4/news/news.asp?id=32744

Again, all HGH-Placebo

http://www.cycling4fans.com/index.php?id=3861

http://www.cycling4fans.com/index.php?id=3861

Placebo with Testosteron and Nandrolon

So you talented riders: Flush your pills down the toilet and improve your results without Dr. Epo-Ferrari, better do it with a REAL Coach like Paul Köchli

 

[elapid]

You are right on this. I think the same. But the other way: Because Pro-Cyclists are full trained to the maximum the body can give, the doping can not have as big an output as on Avg.-Athletes. The Avg.-Athlete has more energy left to be fulfilled by doping. So when i read of one of those Epo-Self-Tests where a german doc. improved 6% by using Epo (& other products) on a ride up to Alpe d Huez, i can certainly say Epo does not improve the power on pros by more then maybe 2-3 %. Which is, of course, still very much. So if DiLuca and the other Blood-Dopers are cuaght, the war is won.

Steroids/HGH only work in Power-Sports. It is VERY difficult to improve the long muscles (for speed, endurance) in comparison to the short muscles (for weight lifting, Bodybuilding etc.). Sorry for my english, but i dont know the translation for long and short muscles.

Yes - I agree. The improvements are more than likely smaller in well-trained cyclists. Conversely, the differences between the top cyclists are sometimes so small that any little bit of assistance may be helpful.

 

[patswana]

Even though I like Pellizotti, I would not be surprised if he goes down. He has improved a lot in the last three years. Before that he used to be a second tier climber.

Agreed. Going out on the attack day after day raises my suspicions too.
Similar to Pereiro in the 2005 (and to a lesser extent 2006) Tours.

 

[usedtobefast]

my 2 cents

clean...pro sports...money changes everything. we want/wish things to be "clean". it's gonna get worse i think. where do the "supplements" stop and the
PED'S begin? it really is survival of the "fittest" in a very Darwinian way.

 

[Parrot23]

The way Menchov responded to DiLuca’s numerous attacks, those responses were explosive like he was attacking himself. He was glued to DiLuca’s wheel, did not ride tempo to regain contact but accelerated so quickly in response. I would be very surprised if Menchov rode the Giro clean.

Agree, and it was NOT a popular view to take during the Giro, LOL. Lots of fanboys around.

The thing is that a jacked di Luca was clearly killing himself in his endless attacks (the guy looked like he was about to "explode"/have a coronary or stroke each time), just burying himself, and it looked oh too easy for a clean Menchov to shut each one down.

Hyperbole here, but Menchov's breathing looked way too easy compared with some other top guys (eg. Sastre), who look like hootie and the blowfish when they are climbing (hyperventilating cheeks). He seemed to do all his breathing at the finish line.

"Deep-diving", anaerobic fish, ie. one with weirdly highly oxygenated blood--that's what I thought.

 

[Parrot23]

If Menchov is riding clean and getting killed then what does that say about the riders in the top ten?

But there's double jeopardy here: he's prob. riding clean AND is exhausted from the Giro.

So it's not quite as bad.

 

[Bala Verde]

But there's double jeopardy here: he's riding clean AND is exhausted from the Giro. So it's not quite as bad.

On top of that, if you as a GC contender know you are done, why hang with the top 20-30. Like Evans, he just knew it was over, shifted his (Evans) focus to the Vuelta, and just finishes the TdF without any further ambitions. I don't think the time behind their names are as indicative as they look beyond a certain cut off.

They are probably more telling for the guys in the top 10-15, ie if we had seen a 6m gap between #1 and #2...