Danilo is caught.

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Yes - I agree. The improvements are more than likely smaller in well-trained cyclists. Conversely, the differences between the top cyclists are sometimes so small that any little bit of assistance may be helpful.

So lets assume its 2-3%, that is still 1 minute faster on a 15-km climb. It explains very much why DiLuca was going real fast, or why Menchov won the TT easy at the Giro, while being overtaken on the 1st Stage of this years tour. So Menchov must be clean now, but as well doped as DiLuca at the Giro. Hope he will be caught too.

 

[blackcat]

Nah. But it does look really bad when a top team with high results shows up a half-hour late to controls, and officials don't seem to mind.


"Only"??? What, do you work for the State Department?!

Wikipedia has a list of his pro wins going back to when he was 19. He has been pretty good for some time.


HGH and IGF-1 may give minimal gains, and the rest a placebo, though Stuart Stevens said otherwise. "Extra blood", as in extra hemoglobin, hct, O2 carriers from blood doping or EPO/Cera, etc, that definitely gives gains, big gains. That can't be what you meant there.

Anyone remember Willy Voet's book on how Virenque had to have the "Time Trial Special" drug that was rumored to be out? Willy didn't want to mess with the refined program Richard was on, so he told him he would get it. But when it came time, in reality just injected Virenque with water and glucose. Virenque rode a great TT and said he had to get more of the stuff. Yes, the mind is very powerful.

time trial special = bus gas

 

[Parrot23]

On top of that, if you as a GC contender know you are done, why hang with the top 20-30. Like Evans, he just knew it was over, shifted his (Evans) focus to the Vuelta, and just finishes the TdF without any further ambitions. I don't think the time behind their names are as indicative as they look beyond a certain cut off.

They are probably more telling for the guys in the top 10-15, ie if we had seen a 6m gap between #1 and #2...

Yes, Menchov is not gonna kill himself in the Tour for no reason (di Luca just about did that to him). The 100th anniversary Giro win was very prestigious (I think more than the Tour this year).

He doesn't have to prove himself; he got the big win. Assuming various others dope too, it was still an impressive win.

 

[palmerq]

I also waited outside the team bus of di luca to take a photo of him(he is very small man) at the tour of blighty, I like him, it´s a shame, i am sad. He does look really shifty though, therefore i think it was obvious...

 

[BigChain]

On top of that, if you as a GC contender know you are done, why hang with the top 20-30. Like Evans, he just knew it was over, shifted his (Evans) focus to the Vuelta, and just finishes the TdF without any further ambitions. I don't think the time behind their names are as indicative as they look beyond a certain cut off.

They are probably more telling for the guys in the top 10-15, ie if we had seen a 6m gap between #1 and #2...

Perhaps the reason Evans has always been a boring rider - always crticised for never attacking - is that he can't attack because he is not juiced up. Perhaps he can't attack because he is always on the limit. When attacks came he could only respond briefly and then always had to ride back to a group or limit his losses by riding at his own pace. It's really only his time trialling ability that has made him a GC contender.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Hyperbole here, but Menchov's breathing looked way too easy compared with some other top guys (eg. Sastre), who look like hootie and the blowfish when they are climbing (hyperventilating cheeks). He seemed to do all his breathing at the finish line.

The look of a rider's pain has little or nothing to do with doping when you think about it. Mancebo looked like he was about to die on every climb, while Simoni almost always looks calm (not implying Simoni has always been clean, though probably cleaner than many).

Perhaps the reason Evans has always been a boring rider - always crticised for never attacking - is that he can't attack because he is not juiced up. Perhaps he can't attack because he is always on the limit.

That could be a factor, but it's not just it. Evans doesn't have the acceleration that riders like Contador, the Schlecks, and sometimes Sastre does, and Basso used to (and maybe will again?). Add, even Evans fans have to admit he hasn't always been the most aggressive rider, nor attacked at the most opportune times.

I really don't think Contador is going to go down for CERA from 2008. Though I suppose it's possible. Even if he does, in order to nix his 2009 Tour, the test results would have to be released within the next several days, in order to toss him out of this Tour. I don't think they'll wipe everything after the fact, but who knows. Either way, go Andy!

 

[Bala Verde]

"Only"??? What, do you work for the State Department?!

Wikipedia has a list of his pro wins going back to when he was 19. He has been pretty good for some time.

Haha, no I am from a small European country, which means we are surrounded by a lot of foreign countries. It makes good sense to learn multiple languages. It makes life a lot easier

Thanks for the link, I hadn't had time to look at his palmares in his early years. It looks quite good. I checked his Tour l'avenir performance and he seemed to have been quite a good climber (stage 6, 8, 9, 10 feature climbs) as he finished top 5 in all of them cementing his overall win.

Interestingly, Baden Cooke (Mercury) was quite the climber in that edition as he beat/finished before Menchov in 3 of those stages...

 

[blackcat]

The look of a rider's pain has little or nothing to do with doping when you think about it. Mancebo looked like he was about to die on every climb, while Simoni almost always looks calm (not implying Simoni has always been clean, though probably cleaner than many).


That could be a factor, but it's not just it. Evans doesn't have the acceleration that riders like Contador, the Schlecks, and sometimes Sastre does, and Basso used to (and maybe will again?). Add, even Evans fans have to admit he hasn't always been the most aggressive rider, nor attacked at the most opportune times.

I really don't think Contador is going to go down for CERA from 2008. Though I suppose it's possible. Even if he does, in order to nix his 2009 Tour, the test results would have to be released within the next several days, in order to toss him out of this Tour. I don't think they'll wipe everything after the fact, but who knows. Either way, go Andy!

Alpe,
if Evans can't attack, cos he is on the limit, and he is clean, that is as good a reason as any.

And he attacked in Liege in 2005. Who else have attacked in Liege? Landis? no. Wiggins. lol. Contador, no.

Look at Wiggins, he was throwing in a few attacks the other night, trying to bridge. If Wiggins can attack, some other clean riders gotta get on the gear. And I dont want em to, but this needs to be appreciated, the guys who cant attack, are not on the Ricco, Contador, Wiggins, Armstrong, Schleck medical programs. They need to be given a pass. Problem is, we cant ascertain, if they are on bread or water, or charging, cos Saxo, Astana, and Garmin have flouted these passports and they have turned them into toilet paper.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Sure, you're pegged, you're pegged. Perhaps to clarify, Evans is more of the type of rider to put up such a pace that he rides everyone away using attrition, more than jumping up and down the course. I don't want to dis the guy, he's done everything he could in this Tour.

Agree on the toilet paper theory.

Haha, no I am from a small European country, which means we are surrounded by a lot of foreign countries. It makes good sense to learn multiple languages. It makes life a lot easier .

I thought you were from Chapel Hill, North Carolina?

 

[Ferminal]

What about the top four riders from the 2008 TdF: Sastre (1st in 2008; now 13th at 11:39), Evans (2nd in 2008; now 32nd at 37:08), Menchov, and Vande Velde (4th in 2008; now 8th at 8:08)? Was the 2008 TdF as clean as it is going to get?

Sastre, Evans and Menchov are all doing awfully (obviously), which indicates that they are close to clean this year.

Sastre - No longer with Riis.
Evans - Not in contention, why waste it.
Menchov - Scared/Giro.

I think what it suggests is that they were most likely doped last year, but definitely clean this year. Which would suggest the top5 this year are definitely doped.

 

[Juan Pelota]

Menchov stated he is just now getting over this hip injury that he hurt during his crash in the final TT of the Giro. That really affected his training leading up to the Tour...

Not saying he was clean in the giro or clean now , just that you never know what's going on w these guys.

 

[BroDeal]

I don't think you can read as much into a bad performance by a rider as you can about a very unusual and good performance. I still think Evans is probably sick. Menchov and Sastre could be out of form after a hard Giro.

 

[BigChain]

Menchov stated he is just now getting over this hip injury that he hurt during his crash in the final TT of the Giro. That really affected his training leading up to the Tour...

Not saying he was clean in the giro or clean now , just that you never know what's going on w these guys.

He's gotta be sore the amount of times he falls off his bike! Twice in yesterday's stage. I'm not sure why he would ride over a thick white pedestrian crossing line when going down hill and about to go around a corner when the road is a bit slick. Bike riding 101, not even racing - ride between the white lines........!?

 

[Cloxxki]

Since EPO and new version get detected quicker and easier, I see differences in performances, as indicated above. No all-season top performances, and obvious talents get their results. Arrogrant *** get caught. It's no exact science, but I seem to notice some patterns.

Young guys with lots of talent are keeping up with "experienced" older winners. Doping came with experience, or arrogance. Some non-super talents get caught using newspaper doping like EPO. They demand results too quickly, while lacking physical talent. It doesn't work that way.

Who'll deny the genetically given physical talent present in Contador and Armstrong? Who'll take them on even after 3 months of 100% isolation from doctors, while having shared the same room with them? No-one can take them on when the playing field is level. These were the guys winning this past decade. They won when they felt the urgence to do so. Biggest race out there.
And, they followed 21st centrury training schedules. Made the effort to shift back, and sit up. The opposite of conservative climbing. And guess what, it works for them. If you have such great engines, you don't want ruined legs for inefficient pedaling.
Try racing through winding city streets in your car's top gear.

 

[sherer]

hope Contador isn't caught as if the best stage racer in the world dopes where does that leave the sport.

Would Wiggins be the first non doped rider or is he guilty due to his improvement ?

If Giro samples only come out now the tour positives could wait till the Vuelta

 

[patswana]

Since EPO and new version get detected quicker and easier, I see differences in performances, as indicated above. No all-season top performances, and obvious talents get their results. Arrogrant *** get caught. It's no exact science, but I seem to notice some patterns.

Young guys with lots of talent are keeping up with "experienced" older winners. Doping came with experience, or arrogance. Some non-super talents get caught using newspaper doping like EPO. They demand results too quickly, while lacking physical talent. It doesn't work that way.

Who'll deny the genetically given physical talent present in Contador and Armstrong? Who'll take them on even after 3 months of 100% isolation from doctors, while having shared the same room with them? No-one can take them on when the playing field is level. These were the guys winning this past decade. They won when they felt the urgence to do so. Biggest race out there.
And, they followed 21st centrury training schedules. Made the effort to shift back, and sit up. The opposite of conservative climbing. And guess what, it works for them. If you have such great engines, you don't want ruined legs for inefficient pedaling.
Try racing through winding city streets in your car's top gear.

Hmmm, someone is a bit gullible then.

If Armstrong was/is all about natural talent, then why did he spend most of his career working with Dr Ferrari? He's a doping doctor. Why else would you work with him? Ditto for Contador and Dr Fuentes.

If you look at natural talent, Armstrong was a good one day racer, not a GT rider. Contador was a likely GT rider but with less natural ability compared to Luis Leon Sanchez, who is the same age. Look where they both are now.

You have been completely sucked in by the propaganda from Armstrong that only he and his buddies ever train. This is totally insulting to the other professionals who don't happen to spend so much money on PR. Try talking to some of your local high level amateur racers. Many will be riding >600km per week. And that will involve specific power training, interval training, time trialling etc. And then ask them about their diet. These are guys who are obsessed, who have studied the science around training. And what % will ever race in Euro pro races? Maybe 1 - 2%. And maybe 1 - 2% of that subset will make it in the high level pro races. You do not get to ride the Tour by faffing about, complaining that it is too cold or wet to train, by eating pizza and drinking beer all the time. Yet this is what is insinuated by Armstrong's PR machine... and believed by suckers like you.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

You have been completely sucked in by the propaganda from Armstrong that only he and his buddies ever train. This is totally insulting to the other professionals who don't happen to spend so much money on PR. Try talking to some of your local high level amateur racers. Many will be riding >600km per week. And that will involve specific power training, interval training, time trialling etc. And then ask them about their diet. These are guys who are obsessed, who have studied the science around training. And what % will ever race in Euro pro races? Maybe 1 - 2%. And maybe 1 - 2% of that subset will make it in the high level pro races. You do not get to ride the Tour by faffing about, complaining that it is too cold or wet to train, by eating pizza and drinking beer all the time. Yet this is what is insinuated by Armstrong's PR machine... and believed by suckers like you.

I would add that too many people are sucked in by the "high cadence" myth that somehow this separates the men from the boys.

Virtually all guys racing bikes spin 90-110 rpm when racing, and in any case, switching to a higher cadence won't suddenly increase your climbing wattage from 360w to 475w -evidence suggests that it will stress your leg muscles less, and can increase efficiency - not overall power output.

Personally the best "LA trains harder and smarter" claim that I have ever heard was the "long black socks make you go faster" argument, and that Lance was at the vanguard of a revolutionary approach in sock length and colour leading to better performances.

 

[Parrot23]

The look of a rider's pain has little or nothing to do with doping when you think about it. Mancebo looked like he was about to die on every climb, while Simoni almost always looks calm (not implying Simoni has always been clean, though probably cleaner than many).

Of course. If you read the post you would read that I'm not talking about whether a guy looks in pain or not, LOL, but whether or not he's breathing hard (when some guys are visibly hyperventilating, like Sastre and Martinez, and others are not).

 

[Jonathan]

Personally the best "LA trains harder and smarter" claim that I have ever heard was the "long black socks make you go faster" argument, and that Lance was at the vanguard of a revolutionary approach in sock length and colour leading to better performances.

Hehe, I thought 'he trains during christmas' was also pretty good.

 

[Bala Verde]

I thought you were from Chapel Hill, North Carolina?

That's where I resided, just moved to the DC area.

Evans said that he coughed up half a liter of mucus after the stage. So he's pretty sick...

 

[Deagol]

Many will be riding >600km per week. And that will involve specific power training, interval training, time trialling etc. And then ask them about their diet. These are guys who are obsessed, who have studied the science around training.

This is also somewhat true even at the Cat 4 level around here. People (amateur racers) are so focused and so driven these days. The times of being a laid-back rider who actualy "rides" instead of "trains" who can place well in local races is IMO a thing of the past.

This could only be magnified at the pro-level. You have got to think about it- this is what these guys do for a living.

 

[Bala Verde]

The Police paid Di Luca's house a visit. I don't know if they found anything, but that might be a little scoop for later

and they had an appointment set up with his doctor and family friend Carlo Santuccione. His house (practice?) was also searched.

Here is the original story in the Gazetta

 

[fox1981]

If people are saying Di Luca and Menchov rode too well in the Giro, what does it say about Contador?

Remember Menchov won the Giro with one stage, the Cinque Terre time trial, and then defended well for the rest of the race.

Contador has relentlessly attacked, even though he's looked safe for a while now. His form has been better than both Di Luca and Menchov. We will see what happens tomorrow.

 

[rhubroma]

Hmmm, someone is a bit gullible then.

If Armstrong was/is all about natural talent, then why did he spend most of his career working with Dr Ferrari? He's a doping doctor. Why else would you work with him? Ditto for Contador and Dr Fuentes.

If you look at natural talent, Armstrong was a good one day racer, not a GT rider. Contador was a likely GT rider but with less natural ability compared to Luis Leon Sanchez, who is the same age. Look where they both are now.

You have been completely sucked in by the propaganda from Armstrong that only he and his buddies ever train. This is totally insulting to the other professionals who don't happen to spend so much money on PR. Try talking to some of your local high level amateur racers. Many will be riding >600km per week. And that will involve specific power training, interval training, time trialling etc. And then ask them about their diet. These are guys who are obsessed, who have studied the science around training. And what % will ever race in Euro pro races? Maybe 1 - 2%. And maybe 1 - 2% of that subset will make it in the high level pro races. You do not get to ride the Tour by faffing about, complaining that it is too cold or wet to train, by eating pizza and drinking beer all the time. Yet this is what is insinuated by Armstrong's PR machine... and believed by suckers like you.

It's the kind of propaganda that sits well with Americans, who believe that it is their protestant work ethic and puritan values and incorruptability, that allows them to make the difference in a world of lazy and morally aenimic Euro dons.

Only from America could we have gotten such a protestant and puritanical myth, which promotes "hard work", "wholsomeness," "dedication" and "supreme will" as the salvation of mankind. And that which leads to its further glorification...blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like Clark Kent, alias SUPERMAN.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It's the kind of propaganda that sits well with Americans, who believe that it is their protestant work ethic and puritan values and incorruptability, that allows them to make the difference in a world of lazy and morally aenimic Euro dons.

Only from America could we have gotten such a protestant and puritanical myth, which promotes "hard work", "wholsomeness," "dedication" and "supreme will" as the salvation of mankind. And that which leads to its further glorification...blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like Clark Kent, alias SUPERMAN.

Rhubroma - I know you have strong views on a lot of issues outside of cycling - and you are entitled to them.
However it is not acceptable to bring them in to a cycling forum - it is just flaming an otherwise excellent thread.