Data from clean Pro's

[chase196126]

Hey all,

With reading all the posts about the Tour wattage measurements, I thought of a little idea. There are a handful of pro riders (myself included) that post on this forum; with 131313 (I hope i got enough 13's ) being very respected in particular.

My idea: If any other Pro's are willing to post data, we could compile a small snapshot of what Pros who are devoted to clean riding are capable of. If you you prefer to keep some data close to your chest, that is fine, any data provided is interested.

I think the only requirement for posting data in this thread should be that you are racing/have raced as a professional in any cycling discipline and that, obviously, you would swear on your life that you have not used PED's.

I'll start out on the data that I have:

Age: 21
Lab results:
Weight while racing: 148-153 pounds depending
Body fat: 8-10% (bioimpedence, not DEXA, so take with a grain of salt)
VO2 Max: 5.540 Litres/minute. ~82 ml/kg/min at time of test (Sept. 2009). Taken at 4500 feet elevation
Max aerobic power during test: 500 watts

Road Results, using both Powertap (2010) and SRM (Checked for accuracy with my own weights). Any measurements taken at altitude (generally 4500 feet here in SLC) are marked with "(A)". Sea Level measurements are generally about 20 watts higher for me personally.

Peak Power Outputs (so far recorded):
1s: 1560 watts SRM
10s: ~1150-1200 W (A) SRM
1m: ~650 SRM
3m: 483 W(A) SRM
5m: ~450 (Powertap) 430 W SRM
10m: 420 W SRM
20: 406 W (Powertap) 393 SRM
Hour: 340 (Powertap), during a local crit (I have not gotten a real chance to test a full hour, so a true measurement for me is a bit of an unknown)

As for repeatability in training, when I am in form 20m intervals are generally done at about 360-380 W at 4500'' altitude.


Values with "~" mean a close estimate, since I do not have my files at the current moment. I will try to get things posted with 100% accuracy when I have my own computer.

Also, I am happy to send .SRM files if you want to see them for yourself. I believe this is an important part of full disclosure, so I am happy to do it. I unfortunately do not have any PowerTap files, but I do have a few photos of a Joule screen with peak values.

Cheers,
Chase Pinkham

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Thanks for posting this Chase.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yea, this is a really good idea.

 

[jobiwan]

Thanks for your effort! Great idea and I hope others will join you!

 

[doperhopper]

This is the right spirit! Deserves a dedicated webpage (if we get some more courageous riders). Anyhow, good luck and looking forward to see better data next year, just not massively better (sorry I could not resist, you know, this is The Clinic).

 

[chase196126]

doperhopper: Your post gave me another idea for adding to this thread.

If anyone has data from when they were younger to compare to current/later outputs, we might get a decent idea of how much improvement is possible over a period of time (AKA, he sucked as a Junior but now he is world class and vice versa)

For me:
VO2 Age 17 (end of my first year, test taken when I was a bit burnt out): 5.040 Liters per minute, weight of 75 Kilo (I was a recreational swimmer before cycling) = ~68 ml/kg/min
Peak power @17: ~420 watts
Lab measured Threshold: 340 watts

Compare that to the test listed in the first post, which was taken in September 2009 after completing Tour of Utah (my first NRC race)

2008-2009 I had a powertap and the only real numbers I remember are 20 minute values (I lost all the data I downloaded with a computer crash )

20m 2008: 355 W
20m 2009: 363 W

I measured higher in lab tests in 2009, showing a threshold of around 365 W.

The biggest changes for me have been:
Sprinting ability: A repeatable peak wattage of ~1200 has increased to something more like ~1400. I credit this to some increased musculature from age, as well as having more miles in my legs leading to being fresher at the end of races. I lost a ton of races locally because I couldn't "sprint my way out of a wet paper bag" (as a friend just reminded me )

Repeatability of efforts: being able to do 370 watts for multiple intervals, rather than have a one and done effort.

Endurance over time and day to day freshness: A good hard day in 2008/2009 would be around 220-235 watts average for around 2-4 hours, and then feeling dead legged in training the next day. Now my average ride during winter endurance training is between 230-245, with a couple of rides being around 255-260 for 5 hours. Then being able to complete the same type of training the next day.

Weight: Being a lower weight and able to maintain that weight with less effort

The biggest hurdles in my career so far

- A severe accident before L'Abitibi in 2008 lead me to missing the rest of the season and missing out on getting into the USA U23 development program at an early age

- Having mono that has recurred twice, in 2010 and again this year (2012). The difference this virus can make is huge. If you do not have acute symptoms, your power dips, day to day endurance is horrible as is recovery. It looks like the virus also affects my thyroid function, which has led to unexpected weight gain both years I have had it (for example in 2010, I gained 10 pounds in 2 weeks while training 20+ hours a week)

Cheers,
Chase Pinkham

 

[will10]

Thank you for being so open Chase.

 

[Sylvester]

Yes, great thread. Thanks.

 

[JPM London]

...

For me:
VO2 Age 17 (end of my first year, test taken when I was a bit burnt out): 5.040 Liters per minute, weight of 75 Kilo (I was a recreational swimmer before cycling) = ~68 ml/kg/min
Peak power @17: ~420 watts
Lab measured Threshold: 340 watts

...

Cheers,
Chase Pinkham

Great thread, mate!

Interesting about the VO2 - I don't know much about it, but enough to know that 82 is quite up there and 68 - while no doubt good - not quite so much...

Also remember Lemond talking about VO2 as a good measure of cleanliness as it stays relatively unchanged through time unless "enhanced". You seem to be showing that comparing a person as 17 with 4 years later does make a difference. Obviously there's the "slight burn-out", but maybe it more shows the development in a young lad growing into his body...

I'm really interested to see updates to the thread over time - cadeau!


JPM

 

[BotanyBay]

Chase, thank you!

VO2 max can shift fairly far just based on your fitness level. I remember helping a grad student back in the day by being tested while also hooked up to a blood drip to measure lactate. I had a really high VO2 max (not far below chase's) for test number one, but when I came back just a week later, I messed up her data by having had to take 4 days in a row with no riding... My next test had a drop in max by like ten percent.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

With all due respect, I'm not sure what the level Pro is supposed to mean in this context. The numbers are certainly no higher than committed amateurs.

 

[taiwan]

The idea is to gather more data. The guy's palmares is available on the web - I don't think he claiming to be anything he's not. Just setting the ball rolling.

 

[JPM London]

Chase, thank you!

VO2 max can shift fairly far just based on your fitness level. I remember helping a grad student back in the day by being tested while also hooked up to a blood drip to measure lactate. I had a really high VO2 max (not far below chase's) for test number one, but when I came back just a week later, I messed up her data by having had to take 4 days in a row with no riding... My next test had a drop in max by like ten percent.

But I do remember correctly re LeMond's suggestion about longitudinal VO2 testing, right? I guess the point might be valid for constantly in-form riders even if their exact form changes over the season...

 

[Red Lobster]

The numbers are certainly no higher than committed amateurs.

I guess, if you mean amateurs who have a good shot at turning pro. These are not typical Cat 2 watt/kg values ... ?

 

[chase196126]

The idea is to gather more data. The guy's palmares is available on the web - I don't think he claiming to be anything he's not. Just setting the ball rolling.

Exactly. I am not trying to claim that I am a good rider, or even a mediocre rider. I am simply trying to encourage those that are many times better than me to do the same in the future. I can't expect others to share a large amount of information without myself being willing to do the same up front. I am just as fascinated by this data as anyone else, and I really enjoy looking over power files from talented athletes.

JPM London:
The potential to increase your VO2 over time depends on genetics and training, I believe. Some people may never see much of an increase in the "absolute" VO2, the total number of Liters of oxygen consumed per minute, even with great training. Others may see a significant increase.

Another aspect of the increase is how I went from 165 pounds to 150. If my absolute VO2 had not changed at all the weight loss would means my "relative" value would have increased to 74 ml/kg/min.

I should have also mentioned that 2007 was before I was working with a coach. I was self coached and training maybe 12 hours a week or so.

 

[SafeBet]

Very interesting thread, thanks mate.

 

[biokemguy]

Great idea Chase!

Seems to me this should be part of Bike Pure's site.
If a Pro wants to be associated with that site, they should put up some test data to back it up.

 

[hrotha]

Respect, Chase.

Someone page Pinotti to this thread!

 

[wannab]

With all due respect, I'm not sure what the level Pro is supposed to mean in this context. The numbers are certainly no higher than committed amateurs.

Either you have totally different view of committed amateurs than I or your just plain ignorant. Either way you sound disrespectful none the less imo.

Vo2max of 82, P20 @ 392w (ftp probably higher than stated seeing his 20') ..
that's not your average "committed amateur" that's Pro lvl. If you ever done 20minutes at 400w you'd known better, the guy has talent, like all guys up there.

Thanks Chase for posting this! Keep it up

 

[Bavarianrider]

Hey, that's fantastic, thanks a lot for this!!!

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Either you have totally different view of committed amateurs than I or your just plain ignorant. Either way you sound disrespectful none the less imo.

Vo2max of 82, P20 @ 392w (ftp probably higher than stated seeing his 20') ..
that's not your average "committed amateur" that's Pro lvl. If you ever done 20minutes at 400w you'd known better, the guy has talent, like all guys up there.

Thanks Chase for posting this! Keep it up

My brother posted almost identical 20 minute power at a lower weight (after 3 years of 15-20 hours a week training whilst a student) before stopping and getting a job. He did perfectly well and has a nice set of BUCS medals, but I wouldn't call him a pro.

 

[acoggan]

If any other Pro's are willing to post data, we could compile a small snapshot of what Pros who are devoted to clean riding are capable of.

1. How do you know who is or isn't "clean"?

2. If the answer to question #1 is that they have never been formally sanctioned, then the "doping line" for maximal sustainable human power output is a lot higher than most people posting here seem to believe. (The data I've seen also belie the argument that anti-doping efforts must be working because performance in cycling isn't gradually improving as it in other sports.)

 

[wannab]

My brother posted almost identical 20 minute power at a lower weight (after 3 years of 15-20 hours a week training whilst a student) before stopping and getting a job. He did perfectly well and has a nice set of BUCS medals, but I wouldn't call him a pro.

Seems like you set your clearly talented brother as a benchmark for the average committed amateurs. You firstly need the talent, then the training to get to those numbers, which are at pro lvl if you compare to the charts. These aren't given any committed amateur imo, that's all.

 

[acoggan]

the charts.

Note that those tables are at least two generations out-of-date. Also, they don't include the explanatory material that can be found here:

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspx

 

[egtalbot]

Thanks for posting this data, it's very interesting!

Regarding VO2 max and changes, my understanding is that VO2 max does not change appreciably with four days of no training. I'd be more inclined to speculate that this kind of drop indicated an athlete who was tired, sick or injured for the second test.

I had mine tested 3 times over a period of several years when I was in my early twenties, and despite fairly varied training paces and mileages (30-50mpw running, I wasn't a cyclist), it was in the same narrow range all three times - 71 to 73.