Data from clean Pro's

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the big ring

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Jul 28, 2009
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Not sure if he counts, but Big Mig just did an effort test. :eek: I am guessing he no longer dopes, although his physiology may be changed for life thanks to his preparation as a pro - who knows.

Looks damned impressive all the same.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22868823

Paragraphed for readibility.

Age-related fitness declines in athletes can be due to both aging and detraining. Very little is known about the physiological and performance decline of professional cyclists after retirement from competition. To gain some insight into the aging and detraining process of elite cyclists, 5-time Tour de France winner and Olympic Champion Miguel Indurain performed a progressive cycle ergometer test to exhaustion 14 years after retirement from professional cycling (age 46 yrs; body mass 92.2 kg).

His maximal values were: oxygen uptake 5.29 l.min-1 (57.4 ml.kg-1.min-1), aerobic power output 450 W (4.88 W.kg-1), heart rate 191 bpm, blood lactate 11.2 mM. Values at the individual lactate threshold (ILT): 4.28 l.min-1 (46.4 ml.kg-1.min-1), 329 W (3.57 W.kg-1), 159 bpm, 2.4 mM.

Values at the 4 mM onset of blood lactate accumulation (OBLA): 4.68 l.min-1 (50.8 ml.kg-1.min-1), 369 W (4.00 W.kg-1), 170 bpm.

Average cycling gross efficiency between 100 and 350 W was 20.1%, with a peak value of 22.3% at 350 W. Delta efficiency was 27.04%.

Absolute maximal oxygen uptake and aerobic power output declined by 12.4 and 15.2% per decade, whereas power output at ILT and OBLA declined by 19.8 and 19.2%.

Larger declines in maximal and submaximal values relative to body mass (19.4-26.1%) indicate that body composition changed more than aerobic characteristics. Nevertheless, Indurain's absolute maximal and submaximal oxygen uptake and power output values still compare favorably with those exhibited by active professional cyclists.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Indurain tested fourteen years after retirement.

http://inrng.com/2012/08/indurain-research-paper/
Loosing 12 kilos is damn hard....His V02 max power was 450 watts. He needs to get that up over 500 undoped to stay with the pack....period. Then he needs an FTP of over 400.... 400 watts would give him the power of an average domestic pro at 80 kg. Doubtful he could gain 70 watts at threshold completely without use of PEDs. Although Indurain is extremely talented, more so than Lance.

At the moment of testing he had a threshold of 330 watts and he weight 202 pounds. The average cat 1 amateur is going to have that power at 65-70 kg. Loosing 20+ pounds an putting on that much fitness at his age would almost certainly require doping, although you can do a lot with proper diet alone even in your 50s. I've seen one or two 55 year olds who can out time trial young professionals! Its pretty hilarious he he he.
 
Can someone explain which factors of Indurain's recent test results can be improved with training? For example, if he starts logging lots of Km's and intensity and whatnot. I get lost in all those numbers.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
Can someone explain which factors of Indurain's recent test results can be improved with training? For example, if he starts logging lots of Km's and intensity and whatnot. I get lost in all those numbers.
The 5.29 liter V02 max could probably still become 6.1 l.min-1 or higher. His threshold would probably go up a little bit more in relation to the V02 max increase. Funny their saying he can still rival some pros....nope, not unless it was a slight downhill, then he might be able to beat a couple pros.
 
Jul 10, 2010
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BigBoat said:
Loosing 12 kilos is damn hard....His V02 max power was 450 watts. He needs to get that up over 500 undoped to stay with the pack....period. Then he needs an FTP of over 400.... 400 watts would give him the power of an average domestic pro at 80 kg. Doubtful he could gain 70 watts at threshold completely without use of PEDs. Although Indurain is extremely talented, more so than Lance.

At the moment of testing he had a threshold of 330 watts and he weight 202 pounds. The average cat 1 amateur is going to have that power at 65-70 kg. Loosing 20+ pounds an putting on that much fitness at his age would almost certainly require doping, although you can do a lot with proper diet alone even in your 50s. I've seen one or two 55 year olds who can out time trial young professionals! Its pretty hilarious he he he.
Speaking as a man who has made it into his 6th decade, your assumption that losing weight and getting back into shape would require drugs is bogus. Completely bogus. It requires hard work and dedication, just like any 20 year old. The recovery may be a little slower, but we aren't indelibly decrepit and ossified just because we are older.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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hiero2 said:
Speaking as a man who has made it into his 6th decade, your assumption that losing weight and getting back into shape would require drugs is bogus. Completely bogus. It requires hard work and dedication, just like any 20 year old. The recovery may be a little slower, but we aren't indelibly decrepit and ossified just because we are older.
You can get in really really great shape without taking drugs, maybe I worded my statement in a poor way. :mad: I dont believe Indurain could race strongly at the top level of pro cycling with his current numbers where they are. However, I do believe Indurain is in good shape right now, and he looks great!
 
Mar 31, 2009
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values

I don't think watts is helpful in this regard.

I would rather post my blood values, 39 hematocrit.
I have never done high altitude training.
I use to live at 1500 elevation, and I felt I was better at sea level then.
 
Jul 10, 2010
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BigBoat said:
. . . I dont believe Indurain could race strongly at the top level of pro cycling with his current numbers where they are. . . .
I think you are probably correct in that. :)
 
Jul 13, 2009
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Basso's tweet today
@ivanbasso race data stage 7 Tour of Britain KM 171 T 4 h 21 WM 301 FCmedia 157 FCmax 191 KJ 4719
 
BigBoat said:
You can get in really really great shape without taking drugs, maybe I worded my statement in a poor way. :mad: I dont believe Indurain could race strongly at the top level of pro cycling with his current numbers where they are. However, I do believe Indurain is in good shape right now, and he looks great!
I somehow doubt that Indurain has done any serious riding since he retired. However looking at those numbers he would probably decimate Master's racing with a few months to whip himself into shape.
 
Jul 10, 2009
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42x16ss said:
I somehow doubt that Indurain has done any serious riding since he retired. However looking at those numbers he would probably decimate Master's racing with a few months to whip himself into shape.
No doubt about that. But at the moment, those numbers are mediocre at best for his age group racing.

Edit: mediocre is maybe a bit harsh expression. Looking more carefully 369w is at OBLA which would most probably put his FTP a bit higher (10-20w). and considering that his w/kg numbers are bad mostly because being overweight which would be very easy to handle.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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June 29,
2009
Shortly
before
Tour
To LA: “just spoke with Schumi about this. . . it’s good, the numbers are
1714m/h which is equal to 5.93 w/kg on that gradient (8.9%). . . . that’s
good numbers!”


How many races did Lance have to do while blood doped to get to 5.9 w/kg....because he certainly doesn't have that power number cleanly...

June 30,
2009
From LA: “Question is how good? What do we need to win the TdF??”
 
Mar 10, 2009
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What astounds me is not the hope that ones favorite young rider is clean, but the assumption that recent heroes, quietly sanctioned by not just the totally corrupt UCI, but by all major race sponsors and many minor race sponsors, are unquestionably dope free.

Yeah, many of the athletes are/have been corrupt, but you dont reach the amount of corruption evidenced in the USADA transcripts had not virtually all race governing organizations also been complicit.

I stopped being an apologist for Armstrong half a decade ago; and I have no qualms about his sanctions - no sympathy for his likely legal battles - monetary and otherwise.

Yet so many pretend that their 'hero' is beyond reproach.

Sorry. What was exposed by Festina has now been really investigated by USADA. Surprise, the USADA took down primarily US cyclists. You want a doping free peloton, then you had better support your own country's ADA commitment to a PED-free peloton, irrespective of...
 
Jun 16, 2009
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_frost said:
No doubt about that. But at the moment, those numbers are mediocre at best for his age group racing.

Edit: mediocre is maybe a bit harsh expression. Looking more carefully 369w is at OBLA which would most probably put his FTP a bit higher (10-20w). and considering that his w/kg numbers are bad mostly because being overweight which would be very easy to handle.
I disagree. Once you get to 40 if you try to drop weight you lose muscle mass. Alot of it. That is why age groupers dope, they lose weight and their power along with it. I lost 30 lbs, and my power dropped off a cliff even though i was hitting the weights hard. I gained the weight back a couple years later, power back up , muscle mass better but nowhere near what it was.
 
Jul 10, 2009
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runninboy said:
I disagree. Once you get to 40 if you try to drop weight you lose muscle mass. Alot of it. That is why age groupers dope, they lose weight and their power along with it. I lost 30 lbs, and my power dropped off a cliff even though i was hitting the weights hard. I gained the weight back a couple years later, power back up , muscle mass better but nowhere near what it was.
Maybe you should have ridden your bike instead of hitting those weights...
 
Jul 28, 2011
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How to lie with numbers

BigBoat said:
Wiggins did 450 watts for 1 hour at 70 kg, he's clean. :) 6.42 w/kg.

"So I am emptying it to the line as if it is a training effort in Tenerife and I have to get out every last little bit. And that's where the punch in the air happens as I cross the line."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/06/bradely-wiggins-tour-de-france-2012
Hey BigBoat, I think in general I sympathize with your cynical view, but you are missing one thing here and have one thing wrong.

First, the Osymmetric rings inflate power by ~4% at these power levels due to the non-constant angular velocity induced by the non-circular rings. Second, according to 131313, at the Tour this year Wiggins was ~72kg as viewed by someone there who watched him step on the scale at weigh-in each day.

So, (450w*0.96)/72kg = 6.0 w/kg. Not quite so fishy now, eh?

Like I said, in general I normally sympathize with many of the skeptical views here. Pro cycling absolutely, 100% deserves it - now and for many years into the future.

However, the way certain figures and inferences are bandied about here only serve to highlight the bias and ignorance of the poster.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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V3R1T4S said:
Hey BigBoat, I think in general I sympathize with your cynical view, but you are missing one thing here and have one thing wrong.

First, the Osymmetric rings inflate power by ~4%

So, (450w*0.96)/72kg = 6.0 w/kg. Not quite so fishy now, eh?
They could give an increase in power for some, but I see most pros using standard rings... Also Wiggins pedal stroke is extremely smooth. The oval rings tend to help people who mash on the downstroke. I'm sure if he was 72 kg at the weigh in he was atleast down to around 70 kg in the morning after using the bathroom.... even if you ignore the 6.2 w/kg, 435 watts in itself is a huge threshold....Many dopers before him have failed to achieve that kind of TT power. It exceeds what riders such as Hinault, Lemond, Fingon could do.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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BigBoat said:
They could give an increase in power for some, but I see most pros using standard rings... Also Wiggins pedal stroke is extremely smooth. The oval rings tend to help people who mash on the downstroke.
V3R1T4S was referring to an artifactual increase in the calculated power, not an increase in the actual power. The former stems from the assumption of crank-based powermeters that the angular velocity of the crank is constant, something that is not true when using non-round rings (regardless of how you pedal).

EDIT: See https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/wattage/5prBUKY20s0/npZID_tb-5AJ for the 1st time (to my knowledge, anyway) this problem was pointed out.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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acoggan said:
V3R1T4S was referring to an artifactual increase in the calculated power, not an increase in the actual power. The former stems from the assumption of crank-based powermeters that the angular velocity of the crank is constant, something that is not true when using non-round rings (regardless of how you pedal).

EDIT: See https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/wattage/5prBUKY20s0/npZID_tb-5AJ for the 1st time (to my knowledge, anyway) this problem was pointed out.
Hmm...that's interesting. Thanks for that bit. I see these O-Symm rings are easier on the knees perhaps?
 

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