Data from clean Pro's

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Mar 22, 2011
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V3R1T4S said:
This directly addresses that claim: http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/post/34816068818/what-about-this-lemond-fugger

Without passing judgment one way or the other, it doesn't appear LeMond's climbing performances ever exceeded 6 w/kg for longer, threshold type climbs.
That's an interesting post and since lemond was an early adopter of the SRM it would be interesting to see how he'd respond to it. One thing that would also be interesting is to nail down lemond's efficiency too as he clearly was an outlier specimen. Thanks for the link!
 
BigBoat said:
It took him around 42 mins to do alpe d'huez, that's around 400 average on an older bike. Definitely not going to loose 60+ threshold watts during a grand tour. He'd be slower than he was as a 13 year old if he lost that much power. :)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-r7JD_tF8zjk/T_srHlswuII/AAAAAAAACMM/w9J_C3nDVw4/s1600/Power+outputs+on+Alp+dHuez.png

Ha, Contador's time in 2011 was only 30 secs quicker than Fingon's best time.
POINTLESS

When did LeMond climb Alpe d'Huez in competition fully rested?
Never to my knowledge.

Assuming as you seem to do that his time at the end of a mountain stage would be the same as his time fully rested is like saying he was on EPO.
 

Fidolix

BANNED
Jan 16, 2012
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Just a reminder.

The blood trail of cycling
Not all lab values suffice for doping bans. But they show the extent of the fraud.

How sick is cycling?
What has been speculated for weeks can be determined quite accurately.
The anti-doping laboratory in Lausanne studies blood values of pro-riders
on behalf of the International Cycling Union UCI since 1996.
The resulting data sets are huge because since 1997, blood samples are taken from various participants in all the major tours.
Officially, these are health tests, but in truth, it was intended from the beginning to exclude athletes with conspicuous
blood values from racing. This is called a protective ban because the values do not suffice to speak of doping.
Such bans are rare today - the athletes and their backers have learned to dope to the limits.

But the doping analysts know far more than they can say out loud.
They noticed that even supposedly clean pro-riders often have other blood values than normal people.
Through a series of reference points, a team of the laboratory in Lausanne developed a model to determine the frequency
of blood doping.
Pierre-Edouard Sottas uses here the medical concept of prevalence.
Prevalence is the proportion of people with a given disease (in this case, doping) in a population.
"The method is very accurate," says Sottas.
And it works with all forms of blood manipulation: EPO doping, own blood and foreign blood transfusion."
Today, we can determine with certainty how many doped racers start a tour," says Sottas.
With the data he uses, a new doping test will be introduced (see text below).
When in the 1996 Tour de Suisse blood samples were taken in order to develop the
future UCI test, EPO was an undetectable miracle drug. Martial Saugy, the head of Original article in German:
Lausanne laboratory, says: «At that time, more than 80 percent of the riders was doping.»
In other sports, there were no systematic controls. But Saugy is convinced:
«What held true in 1996 for cycling could be transferred to all endurance events.»
At that time Bjarne Riis won the Tour de France. Today we know: he was the best in a race of blood-zombies.
1996 was also the year of the Olympic Games in Atlanta.
Saugy says: «I would give a lot if I could analyze all samples collected from Atlanta with modern methods.»
But the IOC does not want a scandal afterwards.
Remains only cycling. Sottas and the team of the Lausanne anti-doping laboratory have studied all the major cycling races
since the introduction of the blood tests and in the process also determined how quickly the peloton reacted to new controls.

The trend in recent years:
1996: There are no controls; more than 80 percent of the riders use EPO.
1997 to 1999: The definition of a hematocrit limit causes unease among athletes, the number of dopers declines slightly.
2000: Everyone knows by now how to manipulate the hematocrit. EPO is again applied more broadly.
2001: An EPO test is introduced, which has dramatic consequences.
«Before the Tour de France 2001 the peloton was practically clean,» says Pierre-Edouard Sottas.
In the third week, however, again an increase could be identified - the win was at stake, and obviously they had already recognized the limitations of the test.
2002: At the beginning, the prevalence is still low, towards the end of year, it increases markedly.
2003: In the Vuelta the riders benefit of the lax attitude of the Spaniards.
«You can almost speak of completely covering doping,» says Sottas. The reason: EPO in
micro-doses and foreign blood transfusions are not detectable.
2004/2005: A test for foreign blood transfusions is introduced; Tyler Hamilton and Santi Perez are caught.
This initially leads to a shock, but then they manipulated with their own blood.
Nevertheless, the prevalence declines: around 50 percent of the riders manipulate, but among the best the percentage is higher.
The percentages in the Vuelta are again higher than those of other races.
2006/2007: With Operación Puerto, the Spanish blood swamp is drained.
The number of dopers is as small as ever since 2001. Less than a quarter of the 180
riders that started in the 2007 Tour de France pedal with manipulated blood.
However Sottas says: «Among the top 30 in the overall classification, the prevalence is higher than in the lower ranks.»
On the basis of their data, the Lausanne doping investigators assume that there are no longer teams that systematically manipulate blood.
In 2003, that was still the case.
One can clearly see how the picture has changed in individual teams.
But there are still teams with frequently doped athletes, and it is still the case that in certain countries there are many athletes with abnormal blood values.

Similar methods as for the detection of blood doping exist for anabolic steroids.
The Lausanne lab director Martial Saugy says that the proportion of riders who use for
example testosterone, is similar to that of the blood dopers - and very often these are
the same people (Hello Lance). Less accurate is the picture for growth hormones, because the test
introduced in 2006 does not really work. Studies demonstrate, however, that growth
hormones are only effective in combination with EPO or anabolic steroids.
Furthermore, catches of police and customs show: growth hormones are smuggled in
about the same amounts as other doping substances. This gives a clearly different
picture than the one lately prevailing in public, namely that of a totally infested
cycling. The 2007 Tour de France, decried as Tour de Farce and at the end reduced
by the media to doping reporting, was one of the cleanest since long. Even with the
utmost care it can be said: 75 percent of the riders were clean. But recent history
shows how quickly that can change.
 
Mar 31, 2009
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clean pros?

Is this thread the right one to seek out who were the 20% of the clean pros who rode against Lance in his 7 TdF's?
 
Jan 11, 2010
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GazelleFormula said:
Gesink's power data of today. 30min @ 400watt = 5.96 W/kg (@68kg). I assume that's (close to) his threshold power. 1180 Watt sprint (5sec).

http://www.mobypicture.com/user/RGUpdate/view/14713755/sizes/full

Not entirely sure if this belongs in this thread, as we cannot know he's clean. But, given the values it seems well within the realm of (clean) possibilities for a WT pro.
You probably have his weight a bit too low for the pre-season. But 405 Watt at (functional) threshold, that's the same as Froomey.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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GazelleFormula said:
Gesink's power data of today. 30min @ 400watt = 5.96 W/kg (@68kg). I assume that's (close to) his threshold power. 1180 Watt sprint (5sec).

http://www.mobypicture.com/user/RGUpdate/view/14713755/sizes/full

Not entirely sure if this belongs in this thread, as we cannot know he's clean. But, given the values it seems well within the realm of (clean) possibilities for a WT pro.
gesink is 73 kg in off season
 
What is your definition of 'clean'. I could take 800mg of caffeine and not test positive and put out 10% more watts than riding sans caffeine. I could get a TUE for ephedrine, modafinil,salbutamol and testosterone and slap on more wattage of my 'clean' levels.

So I can go from pack filler to race winner and still be totally legal and call myself 'clean'.

For me clean means NO puffers, caffeine, stimulants, hormones etc.
 
chase196126 said:
Hey all,

I think the only requirement for posting data in this thread should be that you are racing/have raced as a professional in any cycling discipline and that, obviously, you would swear on your life that you have not used PED's.

Cheers,
Chase Pinkham
I am not racing nor have I raced but I do compete in athletics and I have never used PEDs. But this thread is exactly what cyclists must do to regain their sport. Full, truthful, accurate and transparent disclosure.

If only the DSs, team owners, sponsors, organizers and the UCI would buy in! Congratulations and good luck.
 
Jul 11, 2013
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What is your definition of 'clean'. I could take 800mg of caffeine and not test positive and put out 10% more watts than riding sans caffeine. I could get a TUE for ephedrine, modafinil,salbutamol and testosterone and slap on more wattage of my 'clean' levels.


Sorry, don't know how to 'quote' durianrider, I know that you are a well know Internet moron, but that is truly ignorant. Show me the evidence that 800mg of caffeine will provide a threshold power increase of 10%. Dimwit - a real question for you, how do you earn enough money to afford your 40 bananas a day? I'm genuinely intrigued.
 
Jun 15, 2010
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AJrider said:
What is your definition of 'clean'. I could take 800mg of caffeine and not test positive and put out 10% more watts than riding sans caffeine. I could get a TUE for ephedrine, modafinil,salbutamol and testosterone and slap on more wattage of my 'clean' levels.


Sorry, don't know how to 'quote' durianrider, I know that you are a well know Internet moron, but that is truly ignorant. Show me the evidence that 800mg of caffeine will provide a threshold power increase of 10%. Dimwit - a real question for you, how do you earn enough money to afford your 40 bananas a day? I'm genuinely intrigued.
800mg of Caffeine will give you a 400 watt migraine.And how do you get a TUE for Testosterone or Salbutamol? Anyway Harley is faster than any of those pro's
 
Jul 11, 2013
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simo1733 said:
800mg of Caffeine will give you a 400 watt migraine.And how do you get a TUE for Testosterone or Salbutamol? Anyway Harley is faster than any of those pro's


Sorry, that wasn't me that said that, I was disagreeing with it, as it was another idiotic statement from that Australian guy with tourette's syndrome or what ever his excuse it. I'm pretty sure that he hasn't got a steady job thou.
 
Jun 20, 2009
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AJrider said:
Sorry, that wasn't me that said that, I was disagreeing with it, as it was another idiotic statement from that Australian guy with tourette's syndrome or what ever his excuse it. I'm pretty sure that he hasn't got a steady job thou.
I think you might be one with the disability champ. "Get a steady job", eh? - Haven't heard that one since the 80s.

Harley's job, by the way, is selling his ideas through the web and so every mention he gets, every post he makes, feeds into his business model. Congratulations on contributing to his success.
 
Jul 11, 2013
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laziali said:
I think you might be one with the disability champ. "Get a steady job", eh? - Haven't heard that one since the 80s.

Harley's job, by the way, is selling his ideas through the web and so every mention he gets, every post he makes, feeds into his business model. Congratulations on contributing to his success.
What ideas? To eat bananas, is he a big time banana mogul? No, he's just a crazy that makes youytube videos, if you've paid him for his 'ideas' then you're probably in a tiny minority of people that have seen his videos and then given him any cash. From what I see he lives in a rented shared flat and rides a bike made of old sticks. I'd suggest that his 'business model' is somewhat flawed. God help his kids if they ever need braces.
 
Jun 20, 2009
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AJrider said:
What ideas? To eat bananas, is he a big time banana mogul? No, he's just a crazy that makes youytube videos, if you've paid him for his 'ideas' then you're probably in a tiny minority of people that have seen his videos and then given him any cash. From what I see he lives in a rented shared flat and rides a bike made of old sticks. I'd suggest that his 'business model' is somewhat flawed. God help his kids if they ever need braces.
OK pops, you just keep railing against that "internet thingamejig" and stay focused on your "steady job" as a telegram operator. See how that works out for you :eek:
 
Jul 11, 2013
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laziali said:
OK pops, you just keep railing against that "internet thingamejig" and stay focused on your "steady job" as a telegram operator. See how that works out for you :eek:
Why do you think that I have anything against the Internet? And what's a 'telegram operator'? Do you really love bananas that much, or you just altruistically devote your time in the crusade for people rights to talk too quickly on youtube videos in their attempt to sell misinformation and half truths to people? You seem a little bitter, take some time out, go for a ride on your bike or something. :D
 
Oct 29, 2013
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wannab said:
Either you have totally different view of committed amateurs than I or your just plain ignorant. Either way you sound disrespectful none the less imo.

Vo2max of 82, P20 @ 392w (ftp probably higher than stated seeing his 20') ..
that's not your average "committed amateur" that's Pro lvl. If you ever done 20minutes at 400w you'd known better, the guy has talent, like all guys up there.

Thanks Chase for posting this! Keep it up ;)
AGREED!
Definitely above avg numbers, at that weight this guy is fast!
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Never seen anything close to 10% gain with caffeine..... I've seen a marked decrease in performance with it, during a criterium once. I suppose if you drank a gallon of water with it or were doing perhaps a 10 minute effort and not any longer than 20 mins...because your hydration is compromised and there are other negative that go with stimulants...
 
Feb 15, 2011
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Had an interesting talk yesterday with a former Landbouwkrediet cyclist. He was very open about everything. He was clean for much of his career, but also gave in to the temptation on numerous occasions. He used the expression "taking a knive to a gun fight" a lot.

I also asked him about clean pros. He said he knew about two guys that had néver taken anything, he seemed to be very sure about that. Those riders were Evert Verbist and Fre [Frederik] Veuchelen.

Just wanted to share that.
 
boomcie said:
Had an interesting talk yesterday with a former Landbouwkrediet cyclist. He was very open about everything. He was clean for much of his career, but also gave in to the temptation on numerous occasions. He used the expression "taking a knive to a gun fight" a lot.

I also asked him about clean pros. He said he knew about two guys that had néver taken anything, he seemed to be very sure about that. Those riders were Evert Verbist and Fre [Frederik] Veuchelen.

Just wanted to share that.
well, fine but why not step forward and share the information in an interview instead?
 
Feb 15, 2011
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Dazed and Confused said:
well, fine but why not step forward and share the information in an interview instead?
Dunno. The guy seemed pretty fed up with all of it. He also quit at what I would call a very young age (not even 30). I guess he doesn't really care anymore.
 

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