Data from clean Pro's

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Feb 18, 2011
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acoggan said:
1. How do you know who is or isn't "clean"?

2. If the answer to question #1 is that they have never been formally sanctioned, then the "doping line" for maximal sustainable human power output is a lot higher than most people posting here seem to believe. (The data I've seen also belie the argument that anti-doping efforts must be working because performance in cycling isn't gradually improving as it in other sports.)
That will always be the case, won't it? It will boil down to the readers belief in the athlete in question.

I think this is a good initiative, but I'm afraid it will not get to much response. Today when they ride with power meters in the race this will be a to valuable information for your competitors. Just read on the display when you will cook.. If you still rides clean, that is..

I rather would like to see the pros put up their blood values and passport data.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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These are my PB's over the last couple of years. For the most part, they're pretty repeatable, so there are no crazy one-offs:

5 sec. 19.5 w/kg
1 min. 10 w/kg
5 min. 7.1 w/kg
20 min. 6.15 w/kg
50 min. 5.65*

*elevation @ 5K average or so. The rest of the numbers are at sea level.

My vo2 measurements on the bike are horribly low, I think the highest was 78 ml/min/kg, vs 84 on the treadmill. I think that's because I wasn't trying very hard though, because those tests are dumb.

What I'd be really curious to see are the numbers from someone who was on a full program, say a grand tour contender and top 10 finisher, now racing a domestic schedule supposedly clean, and what the difference is in power between then and now.

This is enough power to win an occasional NRC race and get on the podium at the occasional UCI 2.XX race (not the overall), and to get a minimum wage offer from a pro tour team, which I didn't take.

Since almost no one knows who I am, I'd freely admit to doping if I were juiced! But Dr. Coggan's point is well-taken. For the record, I don't believe that everyone faster than I am is doped. I know that's not the case. So, I'm certainly not claiming these numbers are any sort of upper bound. But there they are, in all of their glory.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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function said:
His Swiss TT (20th June) effort was ~400W for 1hr which at 70kg = 5.7W
Ah - so the graph showing data for "7/12" apparently should be read as "week of".

So does Frei count as a "clean" pro or not??
 
Mar 18, 2009
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131313 said:
These are my PB's over the last couple of years. For the most part, they're pretty repeatable, so there are no crazy one-offs:

5 sec. 19.5 w/kg
1 min. 10 w/kg
5 min. 7.1 w/kg
50 min. 5.65*

*elevation @ 5K average or so. The rest of the numbers are at sea level.
Making a small allowance for the effects of altitude on the last number:



Those are some exceptional results (pun intended). Ever tried the pursuit?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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For comparison, Chase's numbers (ignoring the diff. between PowerTap and SRM, assuming a body mass in the middle of the stated range, and taking FTP to be 370 W + a small adjustment for altitude):

 
Mar 18, 2009
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My data (give-or-take, since obviously commercial powermeters weren't available back then) from when I was a young "dedicated amateur" (with a VO2max of ~80 mL/min/kg) who made it up to Cat. 1 but was pack fodder at, e.g., the Junior Worlds team trials, the Olympic team trials, Nationals, etc.:

 
Jun 3, 2010
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What would be really interesting too(besides this), I think, would be to see how much a truly clean athlete's(your's) power drops during a long stage race. You guys aren't doing three weeks probably, but maybe a week long with a TT at the end some times...?

Even though blood doping may be seriously hampered or eradicated due to passport, I'm guessing the ol' dopers would still be aiding recovery with PEDs (test, HGH). And I find it hard to believe that a truly clean athlete could compete with an athlete aiding recovery in the last week of a 3 week stage race.

So would be interesting to see by how much continuous racing saps your power output.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Ingenerius said:
What would be really interesting too(besides this), I think, would be to see how much a truly clean athlete's(your's) power drops during a long stage race. You guys aren't doing three weeks probably, but maybe a week long with a TT at the end some times...?

Even though blood doping may be seriously hampered or eradicated due to passport, I'm guessing the ol' dopers would still be aiding recovery with PEDs (test, HGH). And I find it hard to believe that a truly clean athlete could compete with an athlete aiding recovery in the last week of a 3 week stage race.

So would be interesting to see by how much continuous racing saps your power output.
Individuals will obviously differ, even in the absence of doping. That said, from the data I've seen I don't think you should/can assume that the sustainable power of a Grand Tour rider automatically decreases over the course of the race.
 
Jul 16, 2012
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Andrew Coggan. How long would it take for a professional cyclist to fully recover from a three week Grand Tour ?

Thanks.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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acoggan said:
Making a small allowance for the effects of altitude on the last number:


Those are some exceptional results (pun intended). Ever tried the pursuit?
All I'm on is hard work, and coffee. And thanks. Pursuit? I have to admit, that's pretty much the antithesis of bike racing to me. Respect to those who do it, but riding around in circles just isn't my thing.

To the point about power drop over a 3 week race, I do think this is a pretty salient question. I don't have any answers. What I will say is that I've hit very high numbers after 8 days of racing, equal to my best numbers. And I actually did a couple of hard days after that just to see what I could do. After 10 days my power was just as high as at the beginning of the race. That said, my feelings of fatigue were getting very high, and I'm not sure how much longer I could have gone.

There seem to be limited data on the subject, unless I'm not looking in the right places. RBC declines, but plasma volume expands. This is going on the well-known paper done at some mountain bike stage race, the assumption being that people at that race aren't doping since they're sleeping in tents. Without question, there are physiological changes that take place over the course of 3 weeks, but whether or not those changes affect power is a bit of an open question. And as you said though, the response is individual. That's why I think the bio-passport has opportunity to be effective, but is beset by problems as well.

Generally, I agree with the statements you've made previously that performance alone isn't a very good indicator of whether or not someone is doping.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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131313 said:
All I'm on is hard work, and coffee. And thanks.
Just to be 100% clear: my pun was alluding to the fact that your FTP falls w/in the "exceptional" category of the power profiling table.
 
Mar 22, 2011
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acoggan said:
Ah - so the graph showing data for "7/12" apparently should be read as "week of".

So does Frei count as a "clean" pro or not??
Considering all the reasonable data is there for analysis (short of 24/7 surveillance), the study showing the effects of doping may last for a few years afterwards, does that count as clean? After his 2 year ban, I'd say yes.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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function said:
Considering all the reasonable data is there for analysis (short of 24/7 surveillance), the study showing the effects of doping may last for a few years afterwards, does that count as clean? After his 2 year ban, I'd say yes.
It was really a rhetorical question. But, to what study are you referring?
 
Mar 22, 2011
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DirtyWorks said:
The graphic shows 5.5 wpk? I don't know for sure what's right or wrong here. So if I'm missing something just say so.

Acoggan, very nice! Thank you.
The graphic shows 396W and his weight is 70kg therefore; 396/70 = 5.66

I just rounded it up to 400W as he was likely pacing at 400 and the average turned out just under.
 
Mar 22, 2011
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acoggan said:
It was really a rhetorical question. But, to what study are you referring?
http://www.pnas.org/content/107/34/15111

Given that atrophy is the extreme case and of course most athletes continue training during their doping ban so they do not undergo atrophy and can do "maintenance" of their previous gains.

Disclaimer: This is my extrapolation and not necessarily what the study was directly investigating.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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chase196126 said:
Hey all,

With reading all the posts about the Tour wattage measurements, I thought of a little idea. There are a handful of pro riders (myself included) that post on this forum; with 131313 (I hope i got enough 13's :p) being very respected in particular.

My idea: If any other Pro's are willing to post data, we could compile a small snapshot of what Pros who are devoted to clean riding are capable of. If you you prefer to keep some data close to your chest, that is fine, any data provided is interested.

I think the only requirement for posting data in this thread should be that you are racing/have raced as a professional in any cycling discipline and that, obviously, you would swear on your life that you have not used PED's.

I'll start out on the data that I have:

Age: 21
Lab results:
Weight while racing: 148-153 pounds depending
Body fat: 8-10% (bioimpedence, not DEXA, so take with a grain of salt)
VO2 Max: 5.540 Litres/minute. ~82 ml/kg/min at time of test (Sept. 2009). Taken at 4500 feet elevation
Max aerobic power during test: 500 watts

Road Results, using both Powertap (2010) and SRM (Checked for accuracy with my own weights). Any measurements taken at altitude (generally 4500 feet here in SLC) are marked with "(A)". Sea Level measurements are generally about 20 watts higher for me personally.

Peak Power Outputs (so far recorded):
1s: 1560 watts SRM
10s: ~1150-1200 W (A) SRM
1m: ~650 SRM
3m: 483 W(A) SRM
5m: ~450 (Powertap) 430 W SRM
10m: 420 W SRM
20: 406 W (Powertap) 393 SRM
Hour: 340 (Powertap), during a local crit (I have not gotten a real chance to test a full hour, so a true measurement for me is a bit of an unknown)

As for repeatability in training, when I am in form 20m intervals are generally done at about 360-380 W at 4500'' altitude.


Values with "~" mean a close estimate, since I do not have my files at the current moment. I will try to get things posted with 100% accuracy when I have my own computer.

Also, I am happy to send .SRM files if you want to see them for yourself. I believe this is an important part of full disclosure, so I am happy to do it. I unfortunately do not have any PowerTap files, but I do have a few photos of a Joule screen with peak values.

Cheers,
Chase Pinkham
Hello Chase. I have not seen this thread. Cool, I just wish the slope on power meters stayed constant instead of being adjustable under "properties" in the power file. :( My 5' numbers are relatively close to you but overall your data matches what I see and feel in bigger US p/1/2 races so thats good.

Over the past 6 mo or so I've seen some odd stuff such as from Tim Duggan posting files of an FTP, 5.1 w/kg which is clearly below what is needed to win the US PRO title!
 
acoggan said:
My data (give-or-take, since obviously commercial powermeters weren't available back then) from when I was a young "dedicated amateur" (with a VO2max of ~80 mL/min/kg) who made it up to Cat. 1 but was pack fodder at, e.g., the Junior Worlds team trials, the Olympic team trials, Nationals, etc.:

Definitely an aerobic engine and nary a fast twitch fiber there ;).

As a result, did you tend to find crits and TTTs the most challenging types of races?
 
Jul 25, 2011
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BigBoat said:
Over the past 6 mo or so I've seen some odd stuff such as from Tim Duggan posting files of an FTP, 5.1 w/kg which is clearly below what is needed to win the US PRO title!
If the files are truly authentic I can only can encourage this, it shows you can be competitive with a lower end ftp (to pro lvl standards) and even win with well played out tactics (consuming energy, well placed attack, etc.). It all points towards a cleaner sport imo.

I get that it may seem odd but luckily it isn't only that one number that wins races :) and really, we all know he isn't going to win the tour either.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Ripper said:
Definitely an aerobic engine and nary a fast twitch fiber there ;).
75-80% type I, based on multiple biopsies.

Ripper said:
As a result, did you tend to find crits and TTTs the most challenging types of races?
I grew up in the midwest, so had to learn early on how to not get fried by people jumping hard out of corners. While I could survive (even occasionally win) such races, though, they clearly weren't/aren't my forte.

As for TTTs, I've only ridden a few 2-up 25 mi and 4-person 100 km races, but didn't find them especially challenging, since the goal is to ride smoothly and not gap your teammates. You wouldn't, though, want me on your team pursuit squad, as 1) I wouldn't be able to lift the pace high enough when on the front, and 2) wouldn't provide anybody on my wheel w/ much of a draft. (I'm 6'0", but "aerodynamically gifted" due to short-ish legs and narrow shoulders).
 
acoggan said:
75-80% type I, based on multiple biopsies.



I grew up in the midwest, so had to learn early on how to not get fried by people jumping hard out of corners. While I could survive (even occasionally win) such races, though, they clearly weren't/aren't my forte.
That's a hard thing to learn!

acoggan said:
As for TTTs, I've only ridden a few 2-up 25 mi and 4-person 100 km races, but didn't find them especially challenging, since the goal is to ride smoothly and not gap your teammates. You wouldn't, though, want me on your team pursuit squad, as 1) I wouldn't be able to lift the pace high enough when on the front, and 2) wouldn't provide anybody on my wheel w/ much of a draft. (I'm 6'0", but "aerodynamically gifted" due to short-ish legs and narrow shoulders).
I was thinking more of pursuits, but for some reason translated it to TTTs. Of course you are correct. TTT would be fine, TP would not have been a good call :p Team Pursuit is just a friggin' brutal anaerobic sport. At least your 1 min is good ... that must have stood you in good stead in the races you were in. My 5 min and FTP have been OK, but man do I suck at 1 min or less :eek:
 

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