Dave Brailsford - cycling genius

[samhocking]

Doping or doping riders is not illegal fmk. That's the point. Clearly if a member of staff breaks the law, I'm not paying for that. Be that £50 speeding ticket or murdering another member of staff.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Doping or doping riders is not illegal fmk. That's the point. Clearly if a member of staff breaks the law, I'm not paying for that. Be that £50 speeding ticket or murdering another member of staff.

I believe you'll find someone willing to make the argument that endangering health is illegal. It is commonly used in the absence of specific doping legislation.

And thanks for accepting the point made.

 

[samhocking]

Poo, you sir!
You just changed the whole context from non-criminal to criminal. Brailsford doesn't even have a proven anti-doping violation against him/his team while freelance consultant yet, let alone one of endangering his riders health lol! Perhaps when talking about theoretical future events say that at the beginning, then we can have a real discussion.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Poo, you sir!
You just changed the whole context from non-criminal to criminal. Brailsford doesn't even have a proven anti-doping violation against him/his team while freelance consultant yet, let alone one of endangering his riders health lol! Perhaps when talking about theoretical future events say that at the beginning, then we can have a real discussion.

JTL?

 

[spetsa]

Re: Re:

Poo, you sir!
You just changed the whole context from non-criminal to criminal. Brailsford doesn't even have a proven anti-doping violation against him/his team while freelance consultant yet, let alone one of endangering his riders health lol! Perhaps when talking about theoretical future events say that at the beginning, then we can have a real discussion.

JTL?

Come on Hog. Don't be throwing any truth in there.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Poo, you sir!
You just changed the whole context from non-criminal to criminal. Brailsford doesn't even have a proven anti-doping violation against him/his team while freelance consultant yet, let alone one of endangering his riders health lol! Perhaps when talking about theoretical future events say that at the beginning, then we can have a real discussion.

JTL?

Come on Hog. Don't be throwing any truth in there.

I guess we can throw Henao in as well but they did somehow strangely resolved itself.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Poo, you sir!
You just changed the whole context from non-criminal to criminal. Brailsford doesn't even have a proven anti-doping violation against him/his team while freelance consultant yet, let alone one of endangering his riders health lol! Perhaps when talking about theoretical future events say that at the beginning, then we can have a real discussion.

I have demonstrated, with your assistance, that contrary to what has been claimed, there is no absolute liability for an employee's legal fees.

Nor is there anything stopping you paying the legal fees of a consultant/contractor.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Poo, you sir!
You just changed the whole context from non-criminal to criminal. Brailsford doesn't even have a proven anti-doping violation against him/his team while freelance consultant yet, let alone one of endangering his riders health lol! Perhaps when talking about theoretical future events say that at the beginning, then we can have a real discussion.

JTL?

JTL = ADV against Sky/Brailsford? How so?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Poo, you sir!
You just changed the whole context from non-criminal to criminal. Brailsford doesn't even have a proven anti-doping violation against him/his team while freelance consultant yet, let alone one of endangering his riders health lol! Perhaps when talking about theoretical future events say that at the beginning, then we can have a real discussion.

JTL?

JTL = ADV against Sky/Brailsford? How so?

Ummmmmmm he was riding for Sky and British Cycling. Simple math.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Poo, you sir!
You just changed the whole context from non-criminal to criminal. Brailsford doesn't even have a proven anti-doping violation against him/his team while freelance consultant yet, let alone one of endangering his riders health lol! Perhaps when talking about theoretical future events say that at the beginning, then we can have a real discussion.

JTL?

JTL = ADV against Sky/Brailsford? How so?

Ummmmmmm he was riding for Sky and British Cycling. Simple math.

Hmmm...Fair enough on the BC link if you like, albeit tenuous I think. I dont agree that he had anything to do with Sky at the time of the ADV, unless you're saying that BC/Sky were inextricably linked...

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Poo, you sir!
You just changed the whole context from non-criminal to criminal. Brailsford doesn't even have a proven anti-doping violation against him/his team while freelance consultant yet, let alone one of endangering his riders health lol! Perhaps when talking about theoretical future events say that at the beginning, then we can have a real discussion.

JTL?

JTL = ADV against Sky/Brailsford? How so?

Ummmmmmm he was riding for Sky and British Cycling. Simple math.

Hmmm...Fair enough on the BC link if you like, albeit tenuous I think. I dont agree that he had anything to do with Sky at the time of the ADV, unless you're saying that BC/Sky were inextricably linked...

I think CMS report proves they were linked, particularly by medical programs and supplies thereof.

JTL was using a Sky blue power meter for the worlds in 2012 and he attended Tenerife Sky trainings camp prior to joining. Clearly the oversight and data was going to Sky.

That’s more than tenuous, I’d call it a bridge.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

I think CMS report proves they were linked, particularly by medical programs and supplies thereof.

JTL was using a Sky blue power meter for the worlds in 2012 and he attended Tenerife Sky trainings camp prior to joining. Clearly the oversight and data was going to Sky.

That’s more than tenuous, I’d call it a bridge.[/quote]

OK, I can understand where you're coming from without agreeing. Being linked to Sky doesn't automatically follow that Sky had any link to the ADV....for me that strike is with his trade team at the time.

 

[thehog]

He had a foot in each team. Nevertheless the suspension occurred whilst at Sky. There is no arguing that.

 

[brownbobby]

He had a foot in each team. Nevertheless the suspension occurred whilst at Sky. There is no arguing that.

It did...but the offence, the ABP anomaly occurred before he joined Sky (officially at least) No arguing that either.

 

[thehog]

He had a foot in each team. Nevertheless the suspension occurred whilst at Sky. There is no arguing that.

It did...but the offence, the ABP anomaly occurred before he joined Sky (officially at least) No arguing that either.

Not true, there is no single value to the ABP, it’s measured on a longitude range basis rather than just one value causing an infraction.

At least be aware of the specifics.

 

[brownbobby]

He had a foot in each team. Nevertheless the suspension occurred whilst at Sky. There is no arguing that.

It did...but the offence, the ABP anomaly occurred before he joined Sky (officially at least) No arguing that either.

Not true, there is no single value to the ABP, it’s measured on a longitude range basis rather than just one value causing an infraction.

At least be aware of the specifics.

Oh I'm aware how it works, very aware....and I stand by what I said...the anomaly, highlighted as abnormal against the longitudinal baseline which you refer to which demonstrates what 'normal looks like for JTL, occurred in 2012, around the time when he won the TOB riding for Endura IIRC.

The baseline and the need to monitor subsequent readings to establish wether the trigger reading was an anomaly or a trend would I believe explain why it took until 2013 to confirm the charge. By which time I'm presuming the ABP was back to normal and he'd moved to Sky.

But I don't believe the records will show him being a Sky rider at the time of the offence. I could be wrong but that's how I saw it at the time

 

[samhocking]

Bit of confusion of the time period for the longtitudinal stuff there Hog.

JTL entered the ABP for the first time in September 2012 after he signed for Sky (Endura were Continental) and his first entries under Sky were made available to Sky in the ABP in Spring 2013. However, due to his stellar 2012 season with Endura, his 2012 Endura blood and urine samples were compared to the 2013 samples while at Sky and it was that longtitudanl change between Endura & Sky with the winter separating them that got him caught. Basically Locke assumed wrongly that his blood and urine tests before entering ABP in Spetember 2012 wouldnt't contribute to it, but they do. Basically his 2012 samples formed the base line in hios ABP and that baseline changed in 2013 after joiningg Sky, but the ABP offence was most definitely in the 2012 TOB with Endura while outside the ABP, not within it when at Sky.

 

[thehog]

Bit of confusion of the time period for the longtitudinal stuff there Hog.

JTL entered the ABP for the first time in September 2012 after he signed for Sky (Endura were Continental) and his first entries under Sky were made available to Sky in the ABP in Spring 2013. However, due to his stellar 2012 season with Endura, his 2012 Endura blood and urine samples were compared to the 2013 samples while at Sky and it was that longtitudanl change between Endura & Sky with the winter separating them that got him caught. Basically Locke assumed wrongly that his blood and urine tests before entering ABP in Spetember 2012 wouldnt't contribute to it, but they do. Basically his 2012 samples formed the base line in hios ABP and that baseline changed in 2013 after joiningg Sky, but the ABP offence was most definitely in the 2012 TOB with Endura while outside the ABP, not within it when at Sky.

At which point he was already training with Sky as far back as April 2012. His involvement with the team was embedded well before he was officially riding for them.

Oh and was he part of the the “Cortisone Tenerife” crowd in 2012 referred by the source at CMS?

This is not Tiernan-Locke’s first Team Sky training camp, however. The 27-year-old joined three of Sky’s Tour de France squad – Wiggins, Richie Porte and Kanstantsin Sivtsov – at a pre-Tour training camp in Tenerife.

The altitude training which took place on the volcanic island over the course of a number of camps was vital in Wiggins’ preparation for the Tour – and helped secure Tiernan-Locke a WorldTour contract.

“It was a little bit intimidating but the Tour de France was still some way off,” he says. “It was April, quite a long time before the Tour, so I knew I wouldn’t be getting in the way of their preparation

https://roadcyclinguk.com/racing/jonathan-tiernan-locke-team-sky-interview-2202.html#irWtQSyZcSd2C2hd.97

 

[roundabout]

Bit of confusion of the time period for the longtitudinal stuff there Hog.

JTL entered the ABP for the first time in September 2012 after he signed for Sky (Endura were Continental) and his first entries under Sky were made available to Sky in the ABP in Spring 2013. However, due to his stellar 2012 season with Endura, his 2012 Endura blood and urine samples were compared to the 2013 samples while at Sky and it was that longtitudanl change between Endura & Sky with the winter separating them that got him caught. Basically Locke assumed wrongly that his blood and urine tests before entering ABP in Spetember 2012 wouldnt't contribute to it, but they do. Basically his 2012 samples formed the base line in hios ABP and that baseline changed in 2013 after joiningg Sky, but the ABP offence was most definitely in the 2012 TOB with Endura while outside the ABP, not within it when at Sky.

That's not really what happened either. As I recall, he had a crazy high OFF-score on his first ABP test (google says 155.8). His subsequent ABP tests were compared to the first one to show that the first test results were indeed abnormal. Also, as far as I remember, the only races he was DQed from were ToB and the Worlds.

 

[thehog]

Bit of confusion of the time period for the longtitudinal stuff there Hog.

JTL entered the ABP for the first time in September 2012 after he signed for Sky (Endura were Continental) and his first entries under Sky were made available to Sky in the ABP in Spring 2013. However, due to his stellar 2012 season with Endura, his 2012 Endura blood and urine samples were compared to the 2013 samples while at Sky and it was that longtitudanl change between Endura & Sky with the winter separating them that got him caught. Basically Locke assumed wrongly that his blood and urine tests before entering ABP in Spetember 2012 wouldnt't contribute to it, but they do. Basically his 2012 samples formed the base line in hios ABP and that baseline changed in 2013 after joiningg Sky, but the ABP offence was most definitely in the 2012 TOB with Endura while outside the ABP, not within it when at Sky.

That's not really what happened either. As I recall, he had a crazy high OFF-score on his first ABP test (google says 155.8). His subsequent ABP tests were compared to the first one to show that the first test results were indeed abnormal. Also, as far as I remember, the only races he was DQed from were ToB and the Worlds.

Correct. The RD suggested EPO use at 2012 ToB after training with Sky. As awesome as the ToB is, being the 4th GT didn’t have EPO testing at that years race! Anyway he only had 3 ABP tests in total, he was dreadfully unlucky to get a letter and not explain it away. At the time JTL suggested other Sky riders had letters with the UCI accepting their reasons (excuses).

 

[Catwhoorg]

Poor lad, who could have forseen that dehydration after one night out would have such far reaching consequences.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Poor lad, who could have forseen that dehydration after one night out would have such far reaching consequences.

What I meant was he was ‘unlucky’ that he couldn’t lose a laptop, create a altitudes natives report or just keep riding like Froome. Considering the absurdity of some Sky’s excuses for its riders poor ole JTL was left out in the cold.

 

[gillan1969]

IIRC the test was on the Saturday morning in Holland...his story was he got totally pished (32 units I think) on the thursday night after signing with SKY and then didn't drink anything at all on the Friday travelling to Holland, hence setting up the crazy score.

Of course he then went on to ride arguably the best ride of his career the next day in a race 90 mins longer than anything he had ever raced in before...

to be fair, less far-fetched than the periodically malfunctioning kidney ruse.....

 

[thehog]

IIRC the test was on the Saturday morning in Holland...his story was he got totally pished (32 units I think) on the thursday night after signing with SKY and then didn't drink anything at all on the Friday travelling to Holland, hence setting up the crazy score.

Of course he then went on to ride arguably the best ride of his career the next day in a race 90 mins longer than anything he had ever raced in before...

to be fair, less far-fetched than the periodically malfunctioning kidney ruse.....

His Worlds race was extremely impressive. At one point I thought he was going to go with the final lead group. BC preparation at its finest!

He went to Manchester post Worlds to undertake some testing. Apparently is off score was back to normal but UKAD wouldn’t let him submit the reading as evidence.

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Re: Re:

Poor lad, who could have forseen that dehydration after one night out would have such far reaching consequences.

What I meant was he was ‘unlucky’ that he couldn’t lose a laptop, create a altitudes natives report or just keep riding like Froome. Considering the absurdity of some Sky’s excuses for its riders poor ole JTL was left out in the cold.

Brailsfraud paid Ashenden to review JTL's blood profile and when Ashenden said that's doping Brailsfraud hung JTL out to dry

So JTL had to pay his own legal fees and given that JTL didn't have millions squirrelled away in tax free Monaco that meant JTL couldn't afford Mike Morgan and he couldn't afford an appeal to CAS

As for JTL not speaking out, he started to but Brailfraud and Cookson managed to silence him. JTL tweeted about the inconsistency of other riders receiving the notorious "back off your bio-passport is too hot" letters from the UCI whereas JTL was busted

But that was political. IIRC Cookson had just announced his intention to run for the UCI presidency and JTL's was the first Sky/Team GB dodgy bio-passport case to cross McQuaid's desk after that. So Pat decided no letter this time we throw the book at this kid

It's hard to feel sorry for JTL because he's done so many idiotic things (the daft excuse, drink driving, etc). But he's deffo been an expendable fall guy. Just a pawn in the game