DAVID MILLAR and the B O A

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It was pretty accurate in this case, but apparently if you were racing against 45 year old Spidey-boy then you would not have suspected a thing.

Will you keep on ignoring the many examples that create suspicion? Maybe you think roid gut is normal with that level of body fat.

I'm not ignoring your images, im saying big legs are poor markers of doping, If your examples are "pretty accurate", why is it hard for you to say yes?

 

[BroDeal]

I'm not ignoring your images, im saying big legs are poor markers of doping, If your examples are "pretty accurate", why is it hard for you to say yes?

Why is it hard for you to say that data viewed in the aggregate can reveal truths while not being accurate for individual cases? Is that too hard of a concept for you?

If you wander into a body building convention, you might not be able to say that any one person must be doping, but you would have to be a blithering idiot not to notice that there was rampant doping.

 

[function]

Why is it hard for you to say that data viewed in the aggregate can reveal truths while not being accurate for individual cases? Is that too hard of a concept for you?

If you wander into a body building convention, you might not be able to say that any one person must be doping, but you would have to be a blithering idiot not to notice that there was rampant doping.

To reiterate, i said leg size was a poor marker as pointed out by Benotti regarding Chris Hoy's legs being unnatural and then defended by you, by showing multiple images of cyclists legs. Secondly, we were discussing cycling and not a body building convention.

At no point have i said that aggregate data cannot be used, looking at legs and coming to conclusions is not aggregating data.

I thought it was a straightforward question, regardless, i shall not persist further.

 

[andy1234]

I would say he might well be the Greg LeMond of track events. You got me on that one. He was obviously a guy with a huge (note to Polish: it is spelled huge not hugh :-0) engine, who may have been a classics guy to rival De Vlaeminck if everyone else was not supercharged.

So a guy with a huge engine, and the right team, CAN win at the very highest level on both road and track?
If you concede Boardman might have done it, then you must concede it is possible for anyone else with the same conditions?

I can't use the same argument for the GTs, as it probably hasn't happened yet, but cycling is much more than the TDF.
I guess its another legacy of Armstrong that the US public believe its the only race that matters, in Europe that isn't the case.

Drug use is rampant in professional sport, but even though dopers would have us believe otherwise, it doesn't make it impossible to win.

 

[simo1733]

Just because CAS can overrule the BOA ban doesn't mean that the selectors have to pick these athletes.
Last I heard the GB sprint relay squad refused to race with Chambers.I hope WADA don't get to choose the team!

 

[Hugh Januss]

Drug use is rampant in professional sport, but even though dopers would have us believe otherwise, it doesn't make it impossible to win.

Oh but it just about does. Which is why it's important to keep talking about it rather than just accepting all of the platitudes, "level playing field" "ok as long as they are all doing it" "cleaner than it's been in a long time" "never tested positive" and my favorite "well they are pros we might as well just make it legal".

 

[andy1234]

Oh but it just about does. Which is why it's important to keep talking about it rather than just accepting all of the platitudes, "level playing field" "ok as long as they are all doing it" "cleaner than it's been in a long time" "never tested positive" and my favorite "well they are pros we might as well just make it legal".

Are you not going to reply to my questions in the post?
Its either impossible to win clean, or it isn't.....

Originally Posted by Hugh Januss
I would say he might well be the Greg LeMond of track events. You got me on that one. He was obviously a guy with a huge (note to Polish: it is spelled huge not hugh :-0) engine, who may have been a classics guy to rival De Vlaeminck if everyone else was not supercharged.

Originally Posted by Andy1234
So a guy with a huge engine, and the right team, CAN win at the very highest level on both road and track?
If you concede Boardman might have done it, then you must concede it is possible for anyone else with the same conditions?

 

[Benotti69]

To reiterate, i said leg size was a poor marker as pointed out by Benotti regarding Chris Hoy's legs being unnatural and then defended by you, by showing multiple images of cyclists legs. Secondly, we were discussing cycling and not a body building convention.

At no point have i said that aggregate data cannot be used, looking at legs and coming to conclusions is not aggregating data.

I thought it was a straightforward question, regardless, i shall not persist further.

I think Hoy's legs are those of a body builder and very unnatural in size as are all the other track sprinter's legs.

No i haven't got any evidence of Hoy doping. But my eyes dont tell me lies.

Those legs are enhanced and not with porridge.

 

[Benotti69]

So let me ask you this, if you were to have a serious discussion regarding anti-doping with, say, Michael Ashenden (he seems to be respected enough), would you and Benotti put forth your theory on PED detection based on quad size in a population of cyclists?

I have a sneaky suspicion that Ashenden would acknowledge in a private conversation that those legs are rather oversized

 

[Hugh Januss]

Are you not going to reply to my questions in the post?
Its either impossible to win clean, or it isn't.....

Originally Posted by Hugh Januss
I would say he might well be the Greg LeMond of track events. You got me on that one. He was obviously a guy with a huge (note to Polish: it is spelled huge not hugh :-0) engine, who may have been a classics guy to rival De Vlaeminck if everyone else was not supercharged.

Originally Posted by Andy1234
So a guy with a huge engine, and the right team, CAN win at the very highest level on both road and track?
If you concede Boardman might have done it, then you must concede it is possible for anyone else with the same conditions?

OK you win it is possible for someone with huge talent to win a World Championship in a track event providing that most of the other hugely talented guys don't take that event as seriously as the events where they can make real money. How may guys show up for the omnium at worlds as opposed to the start line at LBL?
So somebody with the talent to probably win multi classics gets a world pursuit title and you think that means what?

 

[andy1234]

OK you win it is possible for someone with huge talent to win a World Championship in a track event providing that most of the other hugely talented guys don't take that event as seriously as the events where they can make real money. How may guys show up for the omnium at worlds as opposed to the start line at LBL?
So somebody with the talent to probably win multi classics gets a world pursuit title and you think that means what?

Boardman won a lot more than just the world pursuit title.

World tt champ, Criterium international winner, stage wins in just about every non GT tour both in the road stages and in TTs, top 3 in the Dauphine Libere, Paris Nice and tour de Romandie, several TDF prologue wins.....

Boardman also didn't turn pro until he was 25 and was pretty clueless when he first starting riding in the pro peloton. A peloton that at the time, was like the wild west in terms of doping.

The point here isn't about Boardman , but that he achieved what he did against some of the worst doping in cycling history, with very little pro experience. Achievements which according to some, are impossible without doping.

If Boardman could achieve what he did, then a clean rider with a similar engine, turning pro at 19 or 20, already with years of continental race craft, should be able to perform even better.

And what does it mean?
It means that, not everyone who wins at the highest level, are doping.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Boardman won a lot more than just the world pursuit title.

World tt champ, Criterium international winner, stage wins in just about every non GT tour both in the road stages and in TTs, top 3 in the Dauphine Libere, Paris Nice and tour de Romandie, several TDF prologue wins.....

Boardman also didn't turn pro until he was 25 and was pretty clueless when he first starting riding in the pro peloton. A peloton that at the time, was like the wild west in terms of doping.

The point here isn't about Boardman , but that he achieved what he did against some of the worst doping in cycling history, with very little pro experience. Achievements which according to some, are impossible without doping.

If Boardman could achieve what he did, then a clean rider with a similar engine, turning pro at 19 or 20, already with years of continental race craft, should be able to perform even better.

And what does it mean?
It means that, not everyone who wins at the highest level, are doping.

OK so who's your guy? Who is the one that you know for a fact beat all the dopers while he was clean?
Or are we speaking hypothetically here?

 

[andy1234]

OK so who's your guy? Who is the one that you know for a fact beat all the dopers while he was clean?
Or are we speaking hypothetically here?

Im not speaking hypothetically, but the individuals are not the point.

Can you concede the possibility that all high level results are not necessarily the result of doping?

 

[BroDeal]

Im not speaking hypothetically, but the individuals are not the point.

Can you concede the possibility that all high level results are not necessarily the result of doping?

Not since the adoption of EPO. LeMond and Fignon could not compete against punters using the stuff, and Fignon was using about everything except EPO.

When a non-climber and non-time trialist like Armstrong can be Frankensteined into what we all saw then there is no hope for anyone, no matter how talented.

 

[Polish]

Not since the adoption of EPO. LeMond and Fignon could not compete against punters using the stuff, and Fignon was using about everything except EPO.

When a non-climber and non-time trialist like Armstrong can be Frankensteined into what we all saw then there is no hope for anyone, no matter how talented.

LeMond and Fignon were getting old you know.

But I do agree that there is "no hope" for another rider to win 7 TdF's in a row.
That record will stand.
But that is because of awesomeness not dope.
Doped to the gills or clean,,,no hope for 7 in a row ever again.

That said, there is plenty of hope for exciting TdF's again.

 

[andy1234]

Not since the adoption of EPO. LeMond and Fignon could not compete against punters using the stuff, and Fignon was using about everything except EPO.

When a non-climber and non-time trialist like Armstrong can be Frankensteined into what we all saw then there is no hope for anyone, no matter how talented.

If LeMond or Fignon were at the peak of their abilities, then they may still have been competitive, though EPO undoubtedly accelerated that decline, both physically and mentally.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Dwain Chambers eligible for London 2012 after court ruling

Dwain Chambers eligible for London 2012 after court ruling

BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/17853070

now for Millar?

 

[Swabian Lass]

Well strictly speaking, as I understand it, it was. I don't think there was ever much doubt which way the ruling was going to go. It will be interesting to see if Millar is selected for the British Olympic road team. I think I saw that Brailsford said that he's select him if the ban was lifted? (Presumably depending on form etc.) I bet that Cavendish will want him in the team.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/may/01/guardian-sport-network-lifetime-ban-doping

 

[Caruut]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/may/01/guardian-sport-network-lifetime-ban-doping

Quite a good article, though the author's clearly not very familiar with cycling.

 

[Normandy]

Millar should never be allowed to wear a GB jersey again, let along go to the Olympics. He's disgraced it once and should never get the chance again.

I totally agree with you but it looks like the British selectors would rather win tainted medals than maintain an anti doping stance.

Braislford has just selected his good, long term friend Millar for the Olympics.

His selcection further destroys the credibility of Team Sky/ Team GB results.

Its interesting that some other countries still stand will not select ex dopers and GB is only interested in winning at any cost and by whatever means.

 

[blackcat]

I totally agree with you but it looks like the British selectors would rather win tainted medals than maintain an anti doping stance.

Braislford has just selected his good, long term friend Millar for the Olympics.

His selcection further destroys the credibility of Team Sky/ Team GB results.

Its interesting that some other countries still stand will not select ex dopers and GB is only interested in winning at any cost and by whatever means.

disagree.

Millar is just one who got caught. The rest at the pointy end, have not been caught.

Let him ride. He might win Cav a gold medal

 

[2008885]

and GB is only interested in winning at any cost and by whatever means.

Do you think that Millar is still doping??

 

[Casualfan]

I totally agree with you but it looks like the British selectors would rather win tainted medals than maintain an anti doping stance.

Braislford has just selected his good, long term friend Millar for the Olympics.

His selcection further destroys the credibility of Team Sky/ Team GB results.

Its interesting that some other countries still stand will not select ex dopers and GB is only interested in winning at any cost and by whatever means.

The majority do. Even the big countries such as the USA, who have way more quality athletes than Britain, are selecting LaShawn Merritt (who could deny Dai Greene a gold) and Justin Gatlin, and that's just two off the top of my head, as I'm not really a follower of the sport. Millar was one of many who was caught at a time when doping was far more widespread. Plenty of others will attend too. Why does it always have to Britain who has to take the hard stance, when there are countries with far greater resources out there who continue to let their dopers compete?

 

[blackcat]

The majority do. Even the big countries such as the USA, who have way more quality athletes than Britain, are selecting LaShawn Merritt (who could deny Dai Greene a gold) and Justin Gatlin, and that's just two off the top of my head, as I'm not really a follower of the sport. Millar was one of many who was caught at a time when doping was far more widespread. Plenty of others will attend too. Why does it always have to Britain who has to take the hard stance, when there are countries with far greater resources out there who continue to let their dopers compete?

this is a popular meme

the question "to prove it?" aint as popular