DAVID MILLAR and the B O A

[Bala Verde]

Are we done here? Andy and BD?

 

[andy1234]

Are we done here? Andy and BD?

So it would seem

 

[Zam_Olyas]

And in another news

Edwards calls for 'Olympic cycle' drugs bans

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.82f99a6e478d920f9407dc666cba263e.4a1

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

These calls for 4 year bans get me rolling my eyes in disgust. Massive penalties imposed on very few athletes just paints the picture that doping is a rare aberration. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Sports doping is a public health issue and needs to be addressed as such. Epidemiological studies on the long term effects of peds on the endocrine system would be a good start.

 

[Hugh Januss]

To be fair, Im not arguing if Hoy is or isn't clean, just that basing that argument on the size of his legs is misguided.

I also don't hold any belief in the "never tested positive" statement.
My belief comes from living and working with clean world and Olympic champions.
When it comes to believing in clean performances, Its a statistic that fortunately, trumps all others.

And you know for a fact they were 100% clean because you followed them around 24/7 or because they told you?
Has nobody ever lied to you? Because an awful lot of people have lied about "doing it clean", maybe even somebody you know?

 

[joe_papp]

First, thanks for writing.

But what made me critisizing you is the fact that more than 100 products are an incredible amount (if you count like EPO Nr 1, HGH 2, Cortisone 3, and so on, instead of counting maybe EPO NeoRecormon 1, EPO Eprex 2, ...).

Hi -

Hopefully later I can respond more fully, but I need to clarify that the "100 products" has been misinterpreted and it referred to a detailed spreadsheet I kept on all of the doping products I took at various times, but with a level of detail that listed each brand or generic version of any one drug individually. So in this record, EPO did not count as one product, HGH a second, testosterone a third, and so on.

Rather, under a heading labeled "peptide hormones" or "oxygen transfer" (sorry I don't remember and don't want to look it up right now) I listed every brand of EPO and Aranesp I'd ever taken, what the brand name was, the country source, manufacturer, the presentation details (how many IU's, vials or syringes, etc), price, misc details, etc. So there may have been 15 different entries just there.

The primary doping products for cycling then were EPO, HGH, testosterone and cortisone.

Another thing w/ the 100 products list is that there were probably dozens of entries for drugs taken just one time that I nevertheless recorded for accuracy's sake.

It always came back to EPO, HGH, some test. for recovery, and cortico's for racing.

 

[RHRH19861986]

Hi -

Hopefully later I can respond more fully, but I need to clarify that the "100 products" has been misinterpreted and it referred to a detailed spreadsheet I kept on all of the doping products I took at various times, but with a level of detail that listed each brand or generic version of any one drug individually. So in this record, EPO did not count as one product, HGH a second, testosterone a third, and so on.

Rather, under a heading labeled "peptide hormones" or "oxygen transfer" (sorry I don't remember and don't want to look it up right now) I listed every brand of EPO and Aranesp I'd ever taken, what the brand name was, the country source, manufacturer, the presentation details (how many IU's, vials or syringes, etc), price, misc details, etc. So there may have been 15 different entries just there.

The primary doping products for cycling then were EPO, HGH, testosterone and cortisone.

Another thing w/ the 100 products list is that there were probably dozens of entries for drugs taken just one time that I nevertheless recorded for accuracy's sake.

It always came back to EPO, HGH, some test. for recovery, and cortico's for racing.

OK, and thanks for repeating

 

[joe_papp]

OK, and thanks for repeating

ha that's strange - double post lol

as I said I hope to write more later but let me say now in answer to a previous question of yours that I didn't believe that whatever I spent on doping products was a misdirection of resources or money wasted that could've delivered a better return somewhere else. the drugs aren't THAT expensive anymore (it's knowledge about their application in doping that was restricted and difficult for anyone starting out to obtain), plus my team supplied much of the doping products.

when you look at how much people regularly pay for carbon fiber wheels and even frames, in some cases that's hardly more than a basic - but effective - season-long doping regime.

 

[andy1234]

And you know for a fact they were 100% clean because you followed them around 24/7 or because they told you?
Has nobody ever lied to you? Because an awful lot of people have lied about "doing it clean", maybe even somebody you know?

I have lived and trained with some of them for weeks at a time, and been present during their on and off season power tests,

The consistency of their performances, and power figures that can be traced back for years, would indicate entirely believable performances.

Of course they may all have been evasive from day one, for example when they were picked out during a school assesment day, having never raced a bike before, and just continued to fool everyone throughout their career.

Then again, maybe they just became champions with genuine physical talent and years of dedication.

Who knows.

 

[Martin318is]

I suppose his thighs are prosthetics, because they are not natural that's for sure!

Go outside and walk around for a bit. You'll see builders etc with quads the size of his. They won't have the same definition, but they do have the same or more muscle bulk. He is a sprinter. They do more time in gym work than pretty much anything else. I've known heaps of guys who do similar time in the gym who I KNOW are clean (not competetive body builders or anything like that) who are bigger than Hoy.

There may or may not be a multitude of arguments for 'evidence' that someone is dopig. But this ain't it.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I have lived and trained with some of them for weeks at a time, and been present during their on and off season power tests,

The consistency of their performances, and power figures that can be traced back for years, would indicate entirely believable performances.

Of course they may all have been evasive from day one, for example when they were picked out during a school assesment day, having never raced a bike before, and just continued to fool everyone throughout their career.

Then again, maybe they just became champions with genuine physical talent and years of dedication.

Who knows.

Yup, more dedication and more hard work than everyone else in the whole wide world. What are you on?
So they beat all these Euro-stars (who are all doping BTW) just by working harder (?), I can believe that.
So by this point in your life...how many Brooklyn Bridges do you own?

I have lived and trained with some of them for weeks at a time, and been present during their on and off season power tests,

Yeah BTW me too.

 

[andy1234]

Yup, more dedication and more hard work than everyone else in the whole wide world. What are you on?
So they beat all these Euro-stars (who are all doping BTW) just by working harder (?), I can believe that.
So by this point in your life...how many Brooklyn Bridges do you own?
Yeah BTW me too.

You conveniently ignored my reference to tested and documented genuine physical talent.
Dedication and hard work are only part of the formula that is required.

Just to clarify, you believe that no world championships or Olympics, track or road, have been won by a clean rider in what? 10? 15? 20 years?

 

[Hugh Januss]

You conveniently ignored my reference to tested and documented genuine physical talent.
Dedication and hard work are only part of the formula that is required.

Just to clarify, you believe that no world championships or Olympics, track or road, have been won by a clean rider in what? 10? 15? 20 years?

Interesting question, since we are coming up on 30 years from Eddy B. and the US Olympic team's half-azzed blood doping I would say longer than that. I bet the organized team programs have been in place since well before the Festina debacle, and that no one has won the TdF without EPO since at least Indurian's first win.
However, beyond that I think probably many pro road racers used whatever the dope of the day was since the first time there was a cash prize for a bike race. The difference in the modern era is that the stuff works so well it is virtually impossible to be competitive without it.

 

[function]

I suppose his thighs are prosthetics, because they are not natural that's for sure!

Unfortunately these are the sorts of comments that drag down the clinic (haha seriously, no snickering), they tend to say more about the person (and by association, the collective) making them, that is, not qualified to make comments about world class athletes rather than the person they were directed towards.

 

[andy1234]

Interesting question, since we are coming up on 30 years from Eddy B. and the US Olympic team's half-azzed blood doping I would say longer than that. I bet the organized team programs have been in place since well before the Festina debacle, and that no one has won the TdF without EPO since at least Indurian's first win.
However, beyond that I think probably many pro road racers used whatever the dope of the day was since the first time there was a cash prize for a bike race. The difference in the modern era is that the stuff works so well it is virtually impossible to be competitive without it.

My question was specifically about world champs and Olympics.

If you don't believe clean riders have become world or Olympic champions in the last decade or two , then whether you believe me or not, you are wrong.

Given the history of US cycling, it is probably difficult to believe there is any other way to be competitive, but there is.

 

[Benotti69]

Unfortunately these are the sorts of comments that drag down the clinic (haha seriously, no snickering), they tend to say more about the person (and by association, the collective) making them, that is, not qualified to make comments about world class athletes rather than the person they were directed towards.

Of course living with one's head in a dark place with regards to top level sports 'preparation' must be nice!

It always amazes me how many posters come in here and spout that the clinic knows nothing yet they come back time and time again to keep telling the clinic the sport is clean, the clinic has got it all wrong. If the clinic was that irrelevant why do so many post.

The answer is because the sport is still full of dope and dopers. You just need to look at who actually runs the sport, who actually manage the teams, who the team doctors are, who the soigneurs are and who the masseuses are and you will see such a dirty trail of doping.

TeamGB are as clean as the Eastern Europeans before the wall came down. End of. How do clean riders beat doping nations? They dont they have to dope to win!

If TeamGB win 1 medal at this years Olympics it will be becuase of doping. You think the Russians are not doping, the Chinese are not doping, the Amercians are not doping?

Welcome to professional sports boys and girls.

 

[Hugh Januss]

My question was specifically about world champs and Olympics.

If you don't believe clean riders have become world or Olympic champions in the last decade or two , then whether you believe me or not, you are wrong.

Given the history of US cycling, it is probably difficult to believe there is any other way to be competitive, but there is.

OK, possibly womens team pusuit. Mens marquee events? No way.

 

[function]

Of course living with one's head in a dark place with regards to top level sports 'preparation' must be nice!

It always amazes me how many posters come in here and spout that the clinic knows nothing yet they come back time and time again to keep telling the clinic the sport is clean, the clinic has got it all wrong. If the clinic was that irrelevant why do so many post.

I'm not saying anyone is clean or dirty, I'm saying you clearly don't know anything about world class athletes if you think that looking at the size of their legs is proof of doping and in the process of spouting such nonsense you're bringing down the discussion.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

OK, possibly womens team pusuit. Mens marquee events? No way.

So you would say that Chris Boardman was doping?

 

[BroDeal]

I'm not saying anyone is clean or dirty, I'm saying you clearly don't know anything about world class athletes if you think that looking at the size of their legs is proof of doping and in the process of spouting such nonsense you're bringing down the discussion.

Uh-huh. When this dude showed up for races I am sure that none of his competitors suspected that he was doping.

Maybe instead of the ridiculous muscle development, it was the roid gut that gave him away. Well, that or the micro-sized peen.

 

[Hugh Januss]

So you would say that Chris Boardman was doping?

I would say he might well be the Greg LeMond of track events. You got me on that one. He was obviously a guy with a huge (note to Polish: it is spelled huge not hugh :-0) engine, who may have been a classics guy to rival De Vlaeminck if everyone else was not supercharged.

 

[function]

Uh-huh. When this dude showed up for races I am sure that none of his competitors suspected that he was doping.

So let me ask you this, if you were to have a serious discussion regarding anti-doping with, say, Michael Ashenden (he seems to be respected enough), would you and Benotti put forth your theory on PED detection based on quad size in a population of cyclists?

 

[BroDeal]

So let me ask you this, if you were to have a serious discussion regarding anti-doping with, say, Michael Ashenden (he seems to be respected enough), would you and Benotti put forth your theory on PED detection based on quad size in a population of cyclists?

I can just see good ol' Conjunction Junction, What's Your Function watching a body building contest while telling himself, "Wow, look at the results of marginal gains." Meanwhile everyone else--you know, the people with a more than two brain cells that connect with each other--is thinking, "Roids!"

Pull your head out. Are you really going to tell us that there is not rampant drug use in cycling, both track and road? Are you going to tell us that when we flip on Olympic gymnastics and see teenage girls with legs so developed that it makes you laugh that we should not point out the obvious? How about weight lifting or track and field? Are we supposed to turn our brains there as well.

We are supposed to pretend everything is a-okay except for those unlucky or stupid enough to test positive?

Nope, I don't suspect a thing.

 

[function]

I can just see good ol' Conjunction Junction, What's Your Function watching a body building contest while telling himself, "Wow, look at the results of marginal gains." Meanwhile everyone else--you know, the people with a more than two brain cells that connect with each other--is thinking, "Roids!"

Pull your head out. Are you really going to tell us that there is not rampant drug use in cycling, both track and road? Are you going to tell us that when we flip on Olympic gymnastics and see teenage girls with legs so developed that it makes you laugh that we should not point out the obvious? How about weight lifting or track and field? Are we supposed to turn our brains there as well.

We are supposed to pretend everything is a-okay except for those unlucky or stupid enough to test positive?

Nope, I don't suspect a thing.

I never said there was no doping, i said leg size is a poor marker. So is that a yes, you would put forth the theory to Ashenden?

 

[BroDeal]

I never said there was no doping, i said leg size is a poor marker.

It was pretty accurate in this case, but apparently if you were racing against 45 year old Spidey-boy then you would not have suspected a thing.

Will you keep on ignoring the many examples that create suspicion? Maybe you think roid gut is normal with that level of body fat.