Di Gregorio

[roundabout]

If the biological passport has a large margin of error then how can the list be credible? If the list was any good, those with the highest numbers should have the highest probability of being caught.

How many people above Di Gregorio on the list have been under police surveillance?

Until then I suggest you drop your line of "reasoning".

 

[richtea]

You don't get put under surveillance by the police unless you are suspicious - yet the list put Di Gregorio at low suspicion. If the list was a strong predictive tool, then Di Gregorio would have had a higher score. Armstrong also scored low, but allegedly had a blood passport that was fully consistent with doping. What value is the list if it can't do any better than rolling a dice?

 

[roundabout]

You don't get put under surveillance by the police unless you are suspicious - yet the list put Di Gregorio at low suspicion. If the list was a strong predictive tool, then Di Gregorio would have had a higher score. Armstrong also scored low, but allegedly had a blood passport that was fully consistent with doping. What value is the list if it can't do any better than rolling a dice?

The list was from 2010, the police investigation started in 2011. Di Gregorio changed teams in 2011 to a team that was under suspicion.

Do I really have to explain everything over and over just because you don't like what the testing showed up?

 

[hrotha]

The list was from 2010, the police investigation started in 2011. Di Gregorio changed teams in 2011 to a team that was under suspicion.

Do I really have to explain everything over and over just because you don't like what the testing showed up?

Not to mention, we never got a completely coherent explanation of how the list worked, but it was supposed to take other things aside from pure blood values into account, such as suspicious performances and season goals. We don't have any other lists to compare the 2010 TdF list to, so it's really, really hard to extrapolate.

It might be useful for those with high scores, which were said to be pretty hard to explain away without blood manipulation, but not much beyond that.

 

[richtea]

I don't have any problem with the scores themselves and I don't why you think I would. It simply irritates me that there seems to be no correlation between the scores and future events which can only imply that there are flaws in the way the scores were compiled. No tool is perfect, but there surely must be wide scope for improving the precision of this instrument.

 

[Bala Verde]

I don't have any problem with the scores themselves and I don't why you think I would. It simply irritates me that there seems to be no correlation between the scores and future events which can only imply that there are flaws in the way the scores were compiled. No tool is perfect, but there surely must be wide scope for improving the precision of this instrument.

It's still not even clear if Di Grigorio himself is suspected of using doping, or just acting as a middleman/trafficker.

 

[Caruut]

I don't have any problem with the scores themselves and I don't why you think I would. It simply irritates me that there seems to be no correlation between the scores and future events which can only imply that there are flaws in the way the scores were compiled. No tool is perfect, but there surely must be wide scope for improving the precision of this instrument.

I doesn't only imply that. Getting a positive test is notoriously hard - so many known dopers never tested positive. Riders may come on and off particular programs, too, so I think the interpretation should be more like "Getting positives is difficult" than "We got our index wrong".

 

[richtea]

I accept that. There have probably been insufficient sanctions brought about to evaluate the quality of the scoring system systematically: if we had more, it would be straightforward to develop a simple Probit or Logit model to put this question to bed.

 

[joe_papp]

It's still not even clear if Di Grigorio himself is suspected of using doping, or just acting as a middleman/trafficker.

I'm concerned that it might just concern a bunch of stilnox (zolpidem) which = Ambien. If that's been discussed already my apologies for chiming in now w/ it. Otherwise...we'll see I guess. But this may be an instance of the French authorities screwing up. And if that were true...

Thanks for the translation.

Unbelievable to say the least. It's this type of attitude from Horrach which tells you everything what is wrong with this sport.

I could certainly understand Horrach's feelings. Cycling is persecuted to some degree - where are the doping raids and the judicial inquiries targeting fútbol, ice hockey, basketball, cricket, etc...you mean to tell me that the French judicial system only sees evidence of doping in cycling, and further still, they can only act on their suspicions during the biggest bike race in the world when the rider in question may just have been trying to get a sleeping pill? Oh and that the media only investigates and reports on doping in cycling, because...why - this is the only sport where there is doping? From the reaction of some you might think so.

The public's perception of cycling as a dirty sport isn't the result solely of cycling having a doping problem [that was a grammatically-tortured sentence, holyfck!]. It's also the result of a media that is for the most part ineffective and scandal-driven, and which does not investigate the same malfeasance in any other sport that I'm aware of. Furthermore, cycling actually prosecutes most of its dope cheats when they're caught or they slip up, unlike joke sports like NFL, MLB, NASCAR, which in some cases don't even report or publicize doping violations let alone subject their players to WADA Code-scale sanctions.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

My thoughts

So not a single rider reacts. Lame...

Indeed. The sport is "getting cleaner."

 

[hrotha]

I'm concerned that it might just concern a bunch of stilnox (zolpidem) which = Ambien. If that's been discussed already my apologies for chiming in now w/ it. Otherwise...we'll see I guess. But this may be an instance of the French authorities screwing up. And if that were true...



I could certainly understand Horrach's feelings. Cycling is persecuted to some degree - where are the doping raids and the judicial inquiries targeting fútbol, ice hockey, basketball, cricket, etc...you mean to tell me that the French judicial system only sees evidence of doping in cycling, and further still, they can only act on their suspicions during the biggest bike race in the world when the rider in question may just have been trying to get a sleeping pill? Oh and that the media only investigates and reports on doping in cycling, because...why - this is the only sport where there is doping? From the reaction of some you might think so.

The public's perception of cycling as a dirty sport isn't the result solely of cycling having a doping problem [that was a grammatically-tortured sentence, holyfck!]. It's also the result of a media that is for the most part ineffective and scandal-driven, and which does not investigate the same malfeasance in any other sport that I'm aware of. Furthermore, cycling actually prosecutes most of its dope cheats when they're caught or they slip up, unlike joke sports like NFL, MLB, NASCAR, which in some cases don't even report or publicize doping violations let alone subject their players to WADA Code-scale sanctions.

Joe, while I understand and agree with what your saying about cycling being the scapegoat, I assure you you won't find many people here who believe there's no or little doping in other sports. But the reaction of Horrach is simply wrong, even from a purely PR point of view. Di Gregorio was being investigated and was arrested because he contacted and was meeting his providers, wasn't he? That was the right time for the gendarmerie to act. But still, that's not the most important bit here.

The most important bit here is that cycling has only enforced strict anti-doping measures (imperfect as they might be, especially since the ones in charge of enforcing them don't wanna) because of this external pressure (most of it from the media) you decry. Sure, it's unfair that they look the other way when it comes to other sports, but the solution is not to shout "LEAVE US ALONE" but to demand the same laws are enforced for all. If I were a clean cyclist, I think that, no matter how inconvenient and unpleasant these anti-doping measures are, I would be glad that my sport wasn't a free-for-all, and I'd certainly not protest when a competitor is rightfully arrested for what seems to be a doping and/or trafficking violation. Maybe I'd choose a different time to make my point about equality in front of the law.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

It was glucose not doping

Di Gregorio was arrested with two others on Monday night while on the Tour and was transferred to his home town of Marseille, where he was heard by investigating magistrate Annaick Le Goff.

"The rider denies any doping practices," Marseille prosecutor Jacques Dallest told reporters.

He said one of those arrested, a Marseille naturopath, had admitted to injecting ozone into Di Gregorio's bloodstream.

"He said he injected ozone into the rider's bloodstream twice. During another meeting, he had taken a blood sample that he enriched with ozone before injecting it again," he said, adding that the two had met four times between the end of May and end of June this year.

"During another meeting, he injected a dose of 250 ml of glucose into the rider. Those two practices are forbidden," said Dallest.

Dallest said other products found in phials were being analyzed by the French gendarmerie after they were seized from a third person travelling from Marseille to Bourg en Bresse where Di Gregorio was staying.

Di Gregorio was provisionally suspended by his Cofidis team on Tuesday
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/12/us-cycling-digregorio-idUSBRE86B0MU20120712

 

[webvan]

Ozone ? Sounds scary, probably not the only one to do it, is it known to be efficient or is it like Theunisse being told to ride his bike naked at night to improve his performances ?

 

[VeloGirl]

Wondering why anyone would want to inject ozone - or glucose for that matter, brought up a couple of scientific studies.

Here is one on ozone injections
http://www.painphysicianjournal.com/2012/march/2012;15;E115-E129.pdf

Here is one for glucose injections
http://epublications.bond.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1016&context=hsm_pubs

It seems as both are used to treat chronic pain - specifically chronic lower back pain

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I have to agree that this completely discredits the suspicion index if an ozone-fueled rider is a mere 2. Pay no attention to the handful of sky riders in the "overwhelming circumstantial evidence of doping" range.

 

[nvpacchi]

Does anyone with a knowledge of French law know how easy it is for the authorities to obtain and implement a wire tap? I have some suspicion that authorities were already on some traffickers' heels and Remy happened to stumble into the debacle.

 

[webvan]

Can be ordered by a judge I think, clearly they were onto him.

Just saw him on TV (man he's gaunt...) and he says he never doped unless someone betrayed him, the Virenque comparison continues!

 

[Parrot23]

Poor guy. Now an outcast and little better than a common criminal for having injected what? Ozone and glucose. This is laughable--even if it's prohibited. I don't yet know what the trafficking charges are.

Reminds me of Europcar. Wow, injecting B vits. Howdy doodie! Downright criminal (Yes, I know the other suspicion is corticosteroids, which are more serious, and I wouldn't be surprised if they are up to other, more substantive stuff).

Let me see. What would an proportionate sentence be for what we know already? Public execution, anyone?

 

[roundabout]

I have to say that his new nickname of Di Glucosio made me chuckle.

 

[hrotha]

Poor guy. Now an outcast and little better than a common criminal for having injected what? Ozone and glucose. This is laughable--even if it's prohibited. I don't yet know what the trafficking charges are.

Reminds me of Europcar. Wow, injecting B vits. Howdy doodie! Downright criminal (Yes, I know the other suspicion is corticosteroids, which are more serious, and I wouldn't be surprised if they are up to other, more substantive stuff).

Let me see. What would an proportionate sentence be for what we know already? Public execution, anyone?

I say we stick to the punishments that have already been established by the rules Di Gregorio and allegedly Europcar broke.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I don't consider The Greg a doper if all he did was inject ozone (lol) and glucose, but the rules say "no needles" and everyone knows that. Period.

I think he deserves a significantly shorter suspension than 2 years, though.

 

[VeloGirl]

For those wondering how one would inject ozone...

Ozone Therapy: Ozone therapy, like oxidative therapy, is very effective because rather than intoxicating the liver and other organs with drugs, ozone therapy involves oxidizing "the molecules in the shell of the virus." This particular treatment is, of course, performed with ozone, which is produced by "forcing oxygen through a metal tube carrying a 300 volt charge." A pint of blood is then drawn from the patient. This is then gently mixed in an infusion bottle with the ozone until it turns bright red. "As the ozone molecules dissolve in the blood, they give up their third oxygen atom, releasing considerable energy which destroys all lipid-enveloped viruses, and apparently all other disease organisms, while leaving the blood cells unharmed."
Moreover, the blood becomes oxygenated more sufficiently than it normally does, although this may seem hard to believe considering the fact that hemoglobin is so efficient. The blood is then injected into the patient, and this process is administered according to the severity and type of disease. "The strengthened blood confers some of its virucidal properties to the rest of the patient's blood as it disperses," finally evening out in the end to reach equilibrium. The patient's state then remains the same provided he exercises, diets, and breathes deeply regularly
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/oxygen.htm

 

[Kender]

I don't consider The Greg a doper if all he did was inject ozone (lol) and glucose, but the rules say "no needles" and everyone knows that. Period.

I think he deserves a significantly shorter suspension than 2 years, though.

so you know everything they have on him? you have the transcripts from the phone taps?

before we can determine who deserves what we need all the facts.

One fact is true though, if he is found guilty his cycling suspension is only part of the issue. if he did anything in France he could face jail time

 

[pelodee]

"For all the headlines and drama of police swooping on the race, the tale of Remy Di Gregorio looks rather petty and embarrassing after it was revealed he was linked to a 74 year-old “natureopath”, a sort of quack offering “natural” ways to boost his performance. He was arrested by French police on Tuesday and will now be charged… for injecting glucose. Yes, that’s right, doping with nothing more than...[click to reveal]"

 

[joe_papp]

"For all the headlines and drama of police swooping on the race, the tale of Remy Di Gregorio looks rather petty and embarrassing after it was revealed he was linked to a 74 year-old “natureopath”, a sort of quack offering “natural” ways to boost his performance. He was arrested by French police on Tuesday and will now be charged… for injecting glucose. Yes, that’s right, doping with nothing more than...[click to reveal]"

it does seem petty and certainly doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy about France's anti-doping efforts, both judicial and WADA-related. Longo basically rides (slowly) into a tainted retirement w/o being held accountable for doping w/ heavy gear like EPO, yet this poor guy gets done for recovery nutrition and detox that, for the no-needles policy (which I'm starting to wonder about), wouldn't be an issue. Yes, it's a prohibited method, but then, so is EPO a prohibited substance. It's just sucky and I wouldn't be surprised if the guy was caught up in a failing judicial inquiry and is being trotted out b/c they didn't nab anyone higher profile or more nefarious. Guess we'll see.