Disc brakes on road bikes...

[Felice Gimondi]

Re:

Disk brakes are a real solution to the heat problem on carbon clinchers. It completely solves the overheated rim problem.

Yes, and this is a better reason to make a switch to disc brakes (hydraulic only) than the braking capabilities on road bikes themselves.

 

[Felice Gimondi]

Re: Re:

I'm 176cm and my weight is 65kg, still can't get the CX brakes to block at all times, even mechanical disc brakes, cause they're simply not powefull enough on all types of surfaces. My hydraulic however, they can and also my rim brakes on my road bike.

I weigh 14kg more than you and could lock up every mechanical disc I've ever had on a CX bike. How is it possible that you, much lighter, cannot? Oh, I remember, your physics are a little different than normal. My bad.

I'm guessing you don't ride really hard.

Modulating the brakes has lot's to do with analysing and feeling the effect your braking has, and at higher speeds the human perception is just not good enough.

Maybe you shouldn't ride down hills. Just a suggestion.

Well, growing up in a club producing 2010 road WC and riding just as fast as him downhill, I would beg to differ.

 

[Felice Gimondi]

Re: Re:

"Disc brakes allow you to brake later and adjust speed into a really bad section"

If your existing road bike brakes already will block the wheels, or even better, brake just up to the point before blocking, there are no improvements in braking capabilities. If you ride on a bike with or without disc brakes, it is the same amount of energy one has to dispose with, if that energy is not possible to get rid off on a shorter distance because of tire friction being the limiting factor, disc brakes will not shorten the braking distance. That's only physics.

I did a little experiment this year. Went back and re-rode most of the long technical descents where I hold KOM's and PR's on Strava with the disc equipped bike, but on my rim brake bike with every intention of making a result on these sections. Guess what happened, no KOM's and no PR's. I even overshot a really tight corner over the yellow line, one that I remember railing on the other bike. I can brake much later into corners with disc, in turn I exit faster. I also have better control and modulation throughout the braking sections at speed. By your definition(?) of physics the combination of disc and road tires I don't have any advantage because you claim that the limiting factor is tire grip. You don't realize for whatever reason that this debate was over years ago? Nobody is still trying to figure out why disc brakes work better than rim brakes. The only problem roadies have with it is that is messes up their traditional aesthetic. So what is your intention by hammering this tire friction thing to death? Doesn't make any sense.

How is it that your physics doesn't add up with everybody else's physics? If what you're saying is true every shop is going to have to pull their 2017 road disc models off the floor, tomorrow! And all the manufacturers are going to have to pay for making false claims for 20 years. Let's see if they got your warning, backed up by physics of course. :lol:

One cannot argue against the fact that whatever brakes you have, grip will always be a limiting factor. On cars we have solved this issue with electronic surveillance of grip in order to get the maximum of braking capabilities. The reason behind this is evident, humans are not capable to manage this themselves. Perhaps you should head directly into the lab again and develop a comparable system for bikes, then you might have a point. While you're at it, develop a rear suspension increasing both grip and anti slide system as has been shown to work on cars. Afterall, the bike industry is only mimicking other real technical industries.

Yeah, and then dump the computers and sensors doing the all surveillance and adjustments and see how well you super humans can ride.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re:

So, in order to keep up with new technology, I will (at an expense I'd rather not endure) buy a new disc compatible bike
and learn the skills of how to maintain the discs.

Are hydraulic discs stronger, better 'modulation'? Yes
Are they better, particularly in wet, sloppy, carbon rims, big descents? Yes

BUT are they 'worth it'? Worth is a big word. For those who see who won on Sunday and gotta buy on Monday, yup.
For that small minority that actually rides their rig to the very limit every day striving for those strava points? You bet..

Gotta be the 'standard set tho'..tapered headtube, electronic, hydraulic discs, thru-axle(size/threading TBD), throw in a seat mast and carbon tubeless..get a pro kit, done.

But for some and a large 'some', the expense, weight, complication, just isn't 'worth it'. Ya know, those riders that have a stable of bikes that solve the problem of having a 'bike'. Those that see the object of the ride is the ride. And some will slam me for being old, slow, curmudgeony, Ned Ludd incarnate but for me and a lot of guys I know, ride with, the wholescale transformation to wet disc just aren't 'worth it'.

But if ya like 'em, ride 'em, get on that bike and like Eddy said, 'ride lots'..

I'll uncover the ignore to see your post, which is inevitable. :lol:

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

So, in order to keep up with new technology, I will (at an expense I'd rather not endure) buy a new disc compatible bike
and learn the skills of how to maintain the discs.

Are hydraulic discs stronger, better 'modulation'? Yes
Are they better, particularly in wet, sloppy, carbon rims, big descents? Yes

BUT are they 'worth it'? Worth is a big word. For those who see who won on Sunday and gotta buy on Monday, yup.
For that small minority that actually rides their rig to the very limit every day striving for those strava points? You bet..

Gotta be the 'standard set tho'..tapered headtube, electronic, hydraulic discs, thru-axle(size/threading TBD), throw in a seat mast and carbon tubeless..get a pro kit, done.

But for some and a large 'some', the expense, weight, complication, just isn't 'worth it'. Ya know, those riders that have a stable of bikes that solve the problem of having a 'bike'. Those that see the object of the ride is the ride. And some will slam me for being old, slow, curmudgeony, Ned Ludd incarnate but for me and a lot of guys I know, ride with, the wholescale transformation to wet disc just aren't 'worth it'.

But if ya like 'em, ride 'em, get on that bike and like Eddy said, 'ride lots'..

I'll uncover the ignore to see your post, which is inevitable. :lol:

Right, because we all know who this baiting is meant for, don't we.

Ah, ok it all makes sense now. All non-sequiturs think alike. New technology costs money, but you don't wan't to spend it or learn how to maintain it. Hey, that's right up your alley!

Majority of road disc sales are overwhelmingly going to non-racers as a single bike solution, less carbon, no hydro, and no strava. And did you just attempt to burn "electronic"? YOU RIDE EPS! :lol:

How comforting to know that the person with no disc brakes, limited experience, and doesn't want anything to do with them is still compelled to give advice, take jabs wherever possible, and debate on...disc? Something seriously wrong with this picture. Every argument you've posed here has been refuted time and time again. And not just today, last week, or last month.. for years man, YEARS! The only real reason you come back here is that you hold a grudge that doesn't even involve me, at the same rate bash anything that you never really used or hardly worked on because you delegated to messing about with that 'newfagled junk' to the guy who now owns your shop. Never anything constructive from you here or back when I used to visit you, just plain old vitriol. Was funny once but not anymore. Too bad.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Well, growing up in a club producing 2010 road WC and riding just as fast as him downhill, I would beg to differ.

...the more slippery it gets; mud, wet grass, snow or ice, the lesser the benefit of disc brakes become.

Seems the almighty Thor figured out that disc is beneficial for slippery conditions. Depicted here on his BMC Crossmachine.

One cannot argue against the fact that whatever brakes you have, grip will always be a limiting factor.

And one cannot argue against the fact that disc brakes are able to manage that grip better through superior modulation. So where do we go from here?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

So, in order to keep up with new technology, I will (at an expense I'd rather not endure) buy a new disc compatible bike
and learn the skills of how to maintain the discs.

Are hydraulic discs stronger, better 'modulation'? Yes
Are they better, particularly in wet, sloppy, carbon rims, big descents? Yes

BUT are they 'worth it'? Worth is a big word. For those who see who won on Sunday and gotta buy on Monday, yup.
For that small minority that actually rides their rig to the very limit every day striving for those strava points? You bet..

Gotta be the 'standard set tho'..tapered headtube, electronic, hydraulic discs, thru-axle(size/threading TBD), throw in a seat mast and carbon tubeless..get a pro kit, done.

But for some and a large 'some', the expense, weight, complication, just isn't 'worth it'. Ya know, those riders that have a stable of bikes that solve the problem of having a 'bike'. Those that see the object of the ride is the ride. And some will slam me for being old, slow, curmudgeony, Ned Ludd incarnate but for me and a lot of guys I know, ride with, the wholescale transformation to wet disc just aren't 'worth it'.

But if ya like 'em, ride 'em, get on that bike and like Eddy said, 'ride lots'..

I'll uncover the ignore to see your post, which is inevitable. :lol:

Right, because we all know who this baiting is meant for, don't we.

Ah, ok it all makes sense now. All non-sequiturs think alike. New technology costs money, but you don't wan't to spend it or learn how to maintain it. Hey, that's right up your alley!

Majority of road disc sales are overwhelmingly going to non-racers as a single bike solution, less carbon, no hydro, and no strava. And did you just attempt to burn "electronic"? YOU RIDE EPS! :lol:

How comforting to know that the person with no disc brakes, limited experience, and doesn't want anything to do with them is still compelled to give advice, take jabs wherever possible, and debate on...disc? Something seriously wrong with this picture. Every argument you've posed here has been refuted time and time again. And not just today, last week, or last month.. for years man, YEARS! The only real reason you come back here is that you hold a grudge that doesn't even involve me, at the same rate bash anything that you never really used or hardly worked on because you delegated to messing about with that 'newfagled junk' to the guy who now owns your shop. Never anything constructive from you here or back when I used to visit you, just plain old vitriol. Was funny once but not anymore. Too bad.

You forgot, 'so sad'...predictable, at least. You're so angry, that I don't get, oh well. adios. BTW, I thought you didn't like sram either?? And I thought we had some pretty good conversations when you were delivering stuff from J/B..I guess not.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Well, you can only rag on so many people and post nonsense about technology you want/have nothing to do with for so long before somebody calls you out on it. I've done it before and this was your standard issue response. And your utter disdain for niche.. gravel, fat, ring a bell? Those things which you despise so much was the only bright light besides ebikes in a terrible 2016 for the industry. Traditional road bikes being the biggest loser. We are way past the disc brake "cost, weight, complicated" argument that you've been hammering for years, much less any of the performance aspects of discs that have been brought up lately by the trolls. Parts of which even you agree on.

Your clash with SRAM has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard happen in the industry, for that I'm truly sorry. Nobody should ever endure what you went through. I don't like certain things about SRAM either, but not anywhere near your level. You should post a new thread that sheds light on that situation in detail, maybe even an 'industry shaming' thread. I know you'd love to curate that one. Enough with the disc brake debate though, it really doesn't suit you.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Re: Re:

Felice Gimondi wrote:
Well, growing up in a club producing 2010 road WC and riding just as fast as him downhill, I would beg to differ.

Felice Gimondi wrote:
Try writing text with more neutral sentences and that includes leaving the pointless bragging behind. If your arguments where good you wouldn't have to push you experience, it only makes you look more insecure of yourself, not to mention biased.

 

[VeloFidelis]

While two old friends with an axe to grind is entertaining reading, you may want to settle your real differences off line. Because your online differences, at least as it relates to this thread, don't really exist. An admitted curmudgeon acknowledges that disc brakes work better from a mechanical perspective in every situation... he's just got an investment in established technology, and sees no viable reason to spend time and money to adopt the latest iteration of braking technology. The other understands the new isn't always better, but when it is, it should be acknowledged as such. I am sure that there are, and will remain, a few classic bikes in his stable that have perfectly functional rim brakes. I know there are in mine.

The resentment we feel when the industry arbitrarily moves on to the next new technology can be based in our personal investments, or our assessment of that technologies real value. Both perspectives are moot. The industry, like a shark, must continually move forward or die. Those of us with a shed full of bikes ironically are not their demographic target. Yes we are dedicated cyclists, but we do not create the new demands in the market. We make existing technology work well, because we know how. We support a portion of the parts and maintenance side of the industry. It is an important component of the cycling industry, but it does not drive the market or profits. The parts we continually need to keep our aging technology rolling costs more as time goes by, because it costs component manufacturers more to support. We can continue to keep that technology rolling until a time when the cost of doing so outpaces the cost of replacement.

We agree that disc brakes on road bikes work better. To refute that position is to admit to not having used them. It doesn't mean Dura Ace 9000 calipers do not. I have in my fleet a Campagnolo C Record / Delta brake equipped Bianchi Centanario. I don't ride it very often, but it is still an amazing bike. My choice to keep it has more to do with my personal valuation of it, not it's technological excellence, which was once as good as it got. Conversely I do ride a Di2 hydro disc carbon rode bike most of the time. It is quite amazing. The future of road bike design will include disc brakes at ever lower price points, exactly as it did in mountain bike development. Ultimately what we are debating here is; will the sun come up tomorrow, and the day after that. I am betting that it will, which means at some point in the future the financial scales will tip in favor of an investment in new cycling equipment, and your choices away from road disc brakes will be severely limited.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Finally a voice of reason! Thanks for putting it all into perspective, VF.

On a lighter note; between you and Bustedknuckle, both with Delta, and my daily commuter with Olympus cantis...we have without question a couple of the worst rim brakes Campagnolo ever produced. Somehow, we got them to work just fine. :lol:

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Re: Re:

Well, you can only rag on so many people and post nonsense about technology you want/have nothing to do with for so long before somebody calls you out on it. I've done it before and this was your standard issue response. And your utter disdain for niche.. gravel, fat, ring a bell? Those things which you despise so much was the only bright light besides ebikes in a terrible 2016 for the industry. Traditional road bikes being the biggest loser. We are way past the disc brake "cost, weight, complicated" argument that you've been hammering for years, much less any of the performance aspects of discs that have been brought up lately by the trolls. Parts of which even you agree on.

Your clash with SRAM has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard happen in the industry, for that I'm truly sorry. Nobody should ever endure what you went through. I don't like certain things about SRAM either, but not anywhere near your level. You should post a new thread that sheds light on that situation in detail, maybe even an 'industry shaming' thread. I know you'd love to curate that one. Enough with the disc brake debate though, it really doesn't suit you.

Cya on the road...out of this for good, life is too short.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Re:

Finally a voice of reason! Thanks for putting it all into perspective, VF.

On a lighter note; between you and Bustedknuckle, both with Delta, and my daily commuter with Olympus cantis...we have without question a couple of the worst rim brakes Campagnolo ever produced. Somehow, we got them to work just fine. :lol:

Fine?... mmmmm, somewhere south of fine. They look cool though.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Finally a voice of reason! Thanks for putting it all into perspective, VF.

On a lighter note; between you and Bustedknuckle, both with Delta, and my daily commuter with Olympus cantis...we have without question a couple of the worst rim brakes Campagnolo ever produced. Somehow, we got them to work just fine. :lol:

Fine?... mmmmm, somewhere south of fine. They look cool though.

Apparently Bustedknuckle has the trick for eeking out the best from a Delta. All I did was change to KoolStop salmon Thinline pads and, ...... meh, they still suck. Who am I trying fool.

 

[Benotti69]

MWC is allowed to keep posting insults, along with Velofedis.......becusse they like shiny new things?



Not too many pro bikes for 2017 pictured with discs as far as i see so far.

Yeah 20 years on mtbs, yuo'd think if they were that necessary they would have been on the pros road bikes for the last 19.

But hey what would i know. I bow to the knowledge of a guy who spends all his time yelling at others in the disc thread. Sram troll or what....

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re:

MWC is allowed to keep posting insults, along with Velofedis.......becusse they like shiny new things?

And you guys are allowed to flame, bait, troll with impunity and contribute absolutely nothing constructive to the conversation? Hmmm.

Not too many pro bikes for 2017 pictured with discs as far as i see so far.

Yeah 20 years on mtbs, yuo'd think if they were that necessary they would have been on the pros road bikes for the last 19.

Are you talking about the same roadies who protested mandatory helmets? :lol: Disc didn't get road worthy until about 2007. What would you know about that though?

But hey what would i know.

Apparently zilch.

I bow to the knowledge of a guy who spends all his time yelling at others in the disc thread. Sram troll or what....

You bow? to the guy who, doesn't own a disc brake anything, doesn't work on 'em, and never will. And on a thread about, well,... disc brakes. Brilliant. What was that about "knowledge" again?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

The horror..............The horror.....

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Re:

We agree that disc brakes on road bikes work better. To refute that position is to admit to not having used them.

This has been my experience, even with non-hydraulics.

Having said that, it's a personal choice. If someone doesn't want to invest in them, and are happy with rim brakes, so be it.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

We agree that disc brakes on road bikes work better. To refute that position is to admit to not having used them.

This has been my experience, even with non-hydraulics.

Having said that, it's a personal choice. If someone doesn't want to invest in them, and are happy with rim brakes, so be it.

Beginning of this CX season one of guys from our team was floating around my work bench and took off for a ride on a bike I just finished setting up with TRP Spyres. Said he was completely fooled and thought they were hydraulic, until he looked down.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Lots of info on latest 'disc brake news' in the professional peloton..from this forums 'sponsor, Cyclingnews..2-3 articles.

For info.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/disc-brakes-someone-might-have-to-take-a-bullet-for-change-to-happen-says-hansen

I think it's more about the UCI not listening to the rider's 'union' than anything to do with brakes, IMHO.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

In the past year we've seen 3 instances of riders crying wolf. Ventoso, Maes, and now Doull claiming bloody murder, and all debunked straight away with video, photos, witness accounts, even forensic investigations. One thing is for certain that there's more great acting performances like this coming unless a completely new working agreement emerges between all parties. But until then, some roadies are treating disc exactly how footballers take a dive. You don't even have to be anywhere near one in a crash and anybody can claim anything. It's turning into an art form.

Kittel now saying he'll hang up the discs out of respect for his colleagues’. Good on him! And if the investigation proves that Doull is lying he should not only provide an apology to everyone, but should be punished either with a fine, or have to sit out a race or two, or both.

 

[Master50]

Re:

In the past year we've seen 3 instances of riders crying wolf. Ventoso, Maes, and now Doull claiming bloody murder, and all debunked straight away with video, photos, witness accounts, even forensic investigations. One thing is for certain that there's more great acting performances like this coming unless a completely new working agreement emerges between all parties. But until then, some roadies are treating disc exactly how footballers take a dive. You don't even have to be anywhere near one in a crash and anybody can claim anything. It's turning into an art form.

Kittel now saying he'll hang up the discs out of respect for his colleagues’. Good on him! And if the investigation proves that Doull is lying he should not only provide an apology to everyone, but should be punished either with a fine, or have to sit out a race or two, or both.

No one needs proof anymore but I do appreciate the concern by the riders. Crashing is bad enough without worrying about getting cut too. I just read the forensic report on Ventoso, Chainring. Saw the test with a shoe and disk brake. could not cut it even with a motor driving the wheel. The only thing holding me back is he cost to switch. Even the tandem which has a rear cable actuated disk needs a new fork and front wheel to go full disk. too many bikes to replace. Any new bike I buy will have disk brakes. I do wish my carbon Wheels were disk brake too. Love their performance but always think about the wet and the heat. I tend to agree that carbon wheels should not be clinchers either because of the way they need to manage heat in braking. Disk brakes are the perfect fix for heat management at the rim. Might even make tubeless clinchers easier to build out of carbon too. I thought I saw a bike with disks in Paris Nice?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

...I thought I saw a bike with disks in Paris Nice?

Kittel back on them, and Martin and Morkov from Katusha. I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I'm in agreement with Sagan's idea of an "all or nothing" field. Though a bit stifling if you're trying to get anything done at the development level to improve your products, they have to be in race situations and have rider feedback to move forward. So maybe treat it the same way the UCI let it play out in cyclocross, let the riders choose. And much of the advancements in disc brakes for the last few years that are being applied to road are coming from cross. Imagine for a moment how much more refined these brakes would become once some pro roadies dislodge their head from their behinds. On the other hand, I'm actually applauding these guys for calling the CPA's bluff on the threat of litigation and going maverick. Tough case to bring when you have no proof, and I think that finally some of the most ardent critics are starting to come around. Now the manufacturers are in a situation where most have road disc models but mainly in the 'endurance' format, and at this point very few are able to supply a PT level rig. Or a company like Factor who doesn't even have a disc anything.

 

[Tim B]

Did Fizik ever announce any results into the investigation they were supposedly doing when Sky's Doull had his Fizik shoe torn open allegedly by Kittel's rotor?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

After 2 months passed and many races run with disc it's more than likely Fizik was just giving lip service about a 'test' to get Doull and Adam Hansen to stop whining.