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blackcat said:
What? You met him and he was a great guy? No way he would dope? There are lots of great guys who have and would dope. Doping does not make someone a "bad guy"...
I love the connection that if someone is a good guy they are clean.
Maybe I am missing the sarcasm?
rolfrae said:
fair enough...
I always have to think about Jens Voigt... He has a very strong opinion about those guys - called them liars, cheats, idiots, half-wits and so on... This doesn't make him less suspicious for me though!
Every time I see him riding up front in the mtns, I think exactly the same about him...
Additionally...it is the people who are most vocal about something that seem to be hiding a lot of times...look at all the conservative politicians and evangelists who have been busted for cheating on their spouses...these same people were the most vocal about fidelity. Just because someone is vocal against something does not remove them from suspicion. Wiggins and his meteoric rise is kinda like CVV...both on Garmin...out of nowhere...and totally clean? Suspicions aroused!
Jens is the guy who told Jorg Jaksche to bury his doping stash in the 1998 Tour by the side of the road.Hayden Roulston said:
Ofcourse, Jens was hypothetical, who knows if he was actually burying any of his doping stash. He coulda been pumping them all down his veins instead.
TRDean said:
Haha exactly
The same goes with inmates... Each and every one of them says he's innocent!
The first few paragraphs of this article contain an interesting story about CVV and his physiology. Does it prove anything either way? No. But its worth a read.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article4364306.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article4364306.ece
petethedrummer said:
Good read... But then it would be too good to believe...
If you know what legs can feel like after 4 or 5 stages, you cannot believe that a clean CVV would be able to attack in the last week...
petethedrummer said:
What about this statement? (It sounds like it is implying that he was not racing clean before) It is kind of confusing. Nice article.
Jayarbie said:
Yeah thats a good one.
Although I'd argue somebody might be able to get 50-75 places if they could recover day to day.
" You could spin this and say that by riding alongside Lance and AC, Wiggins is saying, look at me, I'm doped."
No spin required.
It's what I was suggesting to begin with.
I was responding to someone who said that Wiggins was clean because Wiggins said he was clean.
No spin required.
It's what I was suggesting to begin with.
I was responding to someone who said that Wiggins was clean because Wiggins said he was clean.
why do some of you follow cycling its clear your bitter these forums are sad for the most part. its as if some would prefer to think many if not all good riders are doped as opposed to simply being mentally and physically stronger than the average racer/rider. accept it some dope but most are just superior as athletes than you will ever be get over it. your ego will survive that much is clear at least based on the delusion of most posts. i assume most of the particularly virulent posters would have various reasons as to explain there own poor racing performances. if of course they race much at all.
Andy Schleck is an interesting case (incidentally, I have no idea but I wouldn't bet money that he is clean). He's my favorite rider.
He has one major thing working against him, that is that he comes from a cycling family so he grew up understanding what the world was like. For me, there are two routes his father could go in terms of his parenting. His dad goes with 1. Do as I say not as I did or 2. this is what it takes. This tells me nothing.
The Riis thing is interesting. He came clean about his doping when he won the tour and that can't really be held against him as a DS, I don't wager simply because he was at the very least honest about it. It doesn't mean he's running a clean team though.
His brother can't be held against him because I understand the pressure as an older brother of a phenom. I'm not a cycling expert (it's tough in this country), but even I have been reading articles about this guy for years.
His riding style can't be held against him. He's light and he's a climber but doesn't seem to have the power that Contador does to make him a TTer as well. Doesn't mean he's not on something, though. Rasmussen was never a terrific TTer either.
He's always been good (as I understand). That doesn't mean anything either, he could have always been doping. As I recall, Ricco was always good as well.
What am i saying with this? I have no friggin clue who is clean. I HOPE Andy is clean but really nothing would surprise me.
He has one major thing working against him, that is that he comes from a cycling family so he grew up understanding what the world was like. For me, there are two routes his father could go in terms of his parenting. His dad goes with 1. Do as I say not as I did or 2. this is what it takes. This tells me nothing.
The Riis thing is interesting. He came clean about his doping when he won the tour and that can't really be held against him as a DS, I don't wager simply because he was at the very least honest about it. It doesn't mean he's running a clean team though.
His brother can't be held against him because I understand the pressure as an older brother of a phenom. I'm not a cycling expert (it's tough in this country), but even I have been reading articles about this guy for years.
His riding style can't be held against him. He's light and he's a climber but doesn't seem to have the power that Contador does to make him a TTer as well. Doesn't mean he's not on something, though. Rasmussen was never a terrific TTer either.
He's always been good (as I understand). That doesn't mean anything either, he could have always been doping. As I recall, Ricco was always good as well.
What am i saying with this? I have no friggin clue who is clean. I HOPE Andy is clean but really nothing would surprise me.
Look guys, Jaja was one of my favorite racers ever. What a great champion he was. Very likable guy, with a great racing style. Just great fun to watch. He never tested positive, never was involved in any scandals, and was quite possibly the most tested athlete ever (along with Cipo).
But I'm not so naive to think he raced in the EPO era, mostly on the ONCE team, and was clean. As far back as 1998 when he had great form, but dropped out of the Tour out of solidarity, I had my suspicions. I can't say I don't care. But I'm also realistic and able to separate the wheat from the chaff, try to help combat doping, while not pretending it doesn't exist. It's not easy, but I do it, as it's reality, and it's the sport I love.
Even with Jaja's background, he's still one of my all time favorites - more than Lemond who quite possibly was entirely clean. And I think it's way cool Jaja's racing triathlons for fun, and doing quite well at them. I imagine he's doing it clean (no prize money, not going to win), but if not, that's the way it goes.
But I'm not so naive to think he raced in the EPO era, mostly on the ONCE team, and was clean. As far back as 1998 when he had great form, but dropped out of the Tour out of solidarity, I had my suspicions. I can't say I don't care. But I'm also realistic and able to separate the wheat from the chaff, try to help combat doping, while not pretending it doesn't exist. It's not easy, but I do it, as it's reality, and it's the sport I love.
Even with Jaja's background, he's still one of my all time favorites - more than Lemond who quite possibly was entirely clean. And I think it's way cool Jaja's racing triathlons for fun, and doing quite well at them. I imagine he's doing it clean (no prize money, not going to win), but if not, that's the way it goes.
who will be the sacrifice this year?
What, we want these guys to ride like that, and entertain us for 3 weeks, at that speed, and expect them to sprint to the end each day, and do it naturally?
Wise up. They’re mostly all Good men. Wives, kids, Christian parents, morally upstanding citizens. But lets not kid ourselves in what we are asking and expecting of them, and what they understand is a level playing field
And lord knows they need extra physical help to get them through and help recover. We can’t blame them for following team instructions either, nor can we blame them for deciding not to partake.
There is a Great article i link discussing what cycling is and how US cyclists came to Europe and wisened up quickly as to what the rules were and what you have to do to be a team player
If you haven’t read it a real eye opener
These guys are all good, some better than others. All the best of the best (except for Simon Gerrans who should be there)
Some have a huge tank, better O2 processing, longer femurs, bigger heart, different muscle/mass ration, and so on, and really are better cyclists To boot
Then some just pull out some extra-ordinary performances even by their own standards. hmmmm.
I guess the moral of the story is enjoy the race….but if you are racing, just remember to take the testosterone patches off of your scrotum before you fall asleep.
Yeah it has cleaned up a little, actually a lot
Until there is honour in competing and being a good team but not a brilliant team (Cadell and his team of guys who give it all but just aren’t as good as some teams) we can expect the same each year. but thats not sport, at least not the 3-week Tour of France
The question is not “who is clean” the question is “who will be this year’s sacrificial lamb”. For there must always be a sacrifice.
Here’s the article. You can read between the lines.
Tour de France, cycling a clash of cultures for Americans, Europeans
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/the_bonus/07/07/tour/index.html
What, we want these guys to ride like that, and entertain us for 3 weeks, at that speed, and expect them to sprint to the end each day, and do it naturally?
Wise up. They’re mostly all Good men. Wives, kids, Christian parents, morally upstanding citizens. But lets not kid ourselves in what we are asking and expecting of them, and what they understand is a level playing field
And lord knows they need extra physical help to get them through and help recover. We can’t blame them for following team instructions either, nor can we blame them for deciding not to partake.
There is a Great article i link discussing what cycling is and how US cyclists came to Europe and wisened up quickly as to what the rules were and what you have to do to be a team player
If you haven’t read it a real eye opener
These guys are all good, some better than others. All the best of the best (except for Simon Gerrans who should be there)
Some have a huge tank, better O2 processing, longer femurs, bigger heart, different muscle/mass ration, and so on, and really are better cyclists To boot
Then some just pull out some extra-ordinary performances even by their own standards. hmmmm.
I guess the moral of the story is enjoy the race….but if you are racing, just remember to take the testosterone patches off of your scrotum before you fall asleep.
Yeah it has cleaned up a little, actually a lot
Until there is honour in competing and being a good team but not a brilliant team (Cadell and his team of guys who give it all but just aren’t as good as some teams) we can expect the same each year. but thats not sport, at least not the 3-week Tour of France
The question is not “who is clean” the question is “who will be this year’s sacrificial lamb”. For there must always be a sacrifice.
Here’s the article. You can read between the lines.
Tour de France, cycling a clash of cultures for Americans, Europeans
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/the_bonus/07/07/tour/index.html
Already referenced in it's own thread there amigo.
As to clean. Of course it's possible to ride clean. Take a look at 70+ years ago. Guys were "doped" on alcohol, strychnine(!), etc. And rode 400km stages, with most roads cobblestones, and most mountain passes dirt. Plus on fixed gear bikes, and did their own repairs. So it's possible. The question then becomes why do we have to see riders going up mountain passes accelerating to 40kph at times? Is 35kph fast enough?
As to clean. Of course it's possible to ride clean. Take a look at 70+ years ago. Guys were "doped" on alcohol, strychnine(!), etc. And rode 400km stages, with most roads cobblestones, and most mountain passes dirt. Plus on fixed gear bikes, and did their own repairs. So it's possible. The question then becomes why do we have to see riders going up mountain passes accelerating to 40kph at times? Is 35kph fast enough?
Alpe d'Huez said:
LOL.
reminds me of that religion that promises 72 virgins in heaven. What, 71 wasn't enough, but 73 was a little greedy?
No, clearly 35kph just wasn't enough
but then that goes to the heart of winning
there is a great book called Doped (i think) by an Aussie Discuss Thrower called Werner Reiterer. great book. he was world junior champ then got to 18 and some kid would appear bust world record then never be seen again. next year same thing, year after same thing, different person
10 years later he'd had enough. he decided if he wanted to participate and win, he knew what he had to do.
35kph IS fast enough to entertain and participate, but if you want to win....
(thanks for being tolerant on the other thread reference, i'll look for that sounds good. as a non cyclist who loves the tour and cycling i've enjoyed this site for a good 13 months, thanks for all your contributions)
forty four said:why do some of you follow cycling its clear your bitter these forums are sad for the most part. its as if some would prefer to think many if not all good riders are doped as opposed to simply being mentally and physically stronger than the average racer/rider. accept it some dope but most are just superior as athletes than you will ever be get over it. your ego will survive that much is clear at least based on the delusion of most posts. i assume most of the particularly virulent posters would have various reasons as to explain there own poor racing performances. if of course they race much at all.
Spot on!!!
I recently stumbled on this forum out of curiosity and was astounded at the obsession of some of the contributors. As an ex pro I have been trying to offer balanced discussion on the subject of doping and without totally defending the practice I have tried to offer an insight into the psychology behind it. Every TDF rider from first to last is an outstanding athlete regardless of what goes on behind the scenes. The reality is wether you all want to believe it or not is that the incidence of doping is probably at its lowest point in 30 years. Try delving into the "peloton mafia" that decides who can and cant go up the road, the collusion between teams, who you chase and who you dont. That would really boggle your minds.
I don't believe doping is at the lowest point in 30 years. The involvement of doctors committed to achieving the best result has, in my estimate, intensified doping and made it an integral part of cycling. Berend Nikkels has indicated there are several 'Puerto-like' networks currently active in Europe. People like Conconi, Ferrari, Mabuse etc. are, I think, an indication of increased professionalism in doping, and it looks like that trend has not (yet) been reversed.
Well, if I were to take a guess, I'd say we're seeing less doping in the last three years, than we have in the entire EPO era. It's my belief the higher up the ladder, the more refined, and discrete your program. But doping controls have made it harder to dope than maybe ever, even though the controls are imperfect, and this applies to all riders. Even those on top programs.
If you go back further than the EPO era, you may have actually had a higher percentage of riders doping. Judging by what Willy Voet and others said, the use of corticoids, and even amphetamines, were rampant before EPO. People who don't believe this and think everyone back then was clean as a whistle need to do some historical research (Laurent Fignon for starters). The difference is that those products don't give the gains that O2 carrier doping does.
If you go back further than the EPO era, you may have actually had a higher percentage of riders doping. Judging by what Willy Voet and others said, the use of corticoids, and even amphetamines, were rampant before EPO. People who don't believe this and think everyone back then was clean as a whistle need to do some historical research (Laurent Fignon for starters). The difference is that those products don't give the gains that O2 carrier doping does.
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