Does anyone doubt Cadel is clean?

[Libertine Seguros]

Looks fresh doesn't he ? Evans is one GC rider who always looks like he has just raced over 200 kms or so. Some of the others look like they have not ridden at all.

Bernhard Kohl passed out at the top of Alpe d'Huez from exhaustion. He sure looked like he'd ridden a lot that day. Didn't make him any cleaner.

Even Tom Boonen said during the TDF a few years ago, that he had no doubts at all about Evans as a clean rider. He had no reason to say it as far as I could tell. That was just an honest opinion from a guy that has ridden in races with Evans for a long time. Evans may be eccentric and for a lot of people, hard to like but I would be surprised if he was ever implicated in anything illegal.

At the same time, we had people firing darts at David Moncoutié of all people and discrediting the circumstantial evidence of people saying he was clean, whilst trumping the circumstantial evidence of other riders talking about doping. It's hard to know whose opinions carry weight.

 

[zigmeister]

Some people are expressing themselves here as if they are doping experts knowing all...

Cadel Evans is nothing more than an average cyclist, dope won't change that.
So who cares if he dopes?

I wish I was as average as him.

 

[Benotti69]

Bernhard Kohl passed out at the top of Alpe d'Huez from exhaustion. He sure looked like he'd ridden a lot that day. Didn't make him any cleaner.



At the same time, we had people firing darts at David Moncoutié of all people and discrediting the circumstantial evidence of people saying he was clean, whilst trumping the circumstantial evidence of other riders talking about doping. It's hard to know whose opinions carry weight.

I agree about 'dot joining', which is all about speculation in regards to lots of riders whom we suspect of either doping or clean, yet who have not tested positive in the case of suspected dopers. Whether its the teams they rode for or great performances or non performances or best buddies with a known doper etc....

The best thing for posters in the clinic to do is lay out well reason and thought out arguments for and against. But posters are only human and alot of the comments are on gut feeling etc and misinformed dot joining. Even former dopers and current DS can get it wrong in their 'dot joining', re JVs opinion of Tondo.

Evans, clean? it is a hard one as he has ridden on big league doping teams in the past (T-Mobile) had great GT performances in a doped peloton (2005-2009) against dopers and currently rides for BMC (phonak) in another life and they were dirty to the bone.

Easy to come to a conclusion on an internet forum that most likely it aint all natural ability.

 

[La Pandera]

I remember Tommeke saying that too. If Evans is doping now and finally grabs the cache of wins he was cheated of in years past (which includes at least one Tour) I can't honestly say I'd begrudge him.

He's clearly a changed rider with a lot more confidence. I hope it's just the result of being a world champ. Whatever it is, I find myself liking the new Cuddles.

According to his past performances and the insistence of many of his fans, he's always been an aggressive, attacking rider, so the only thing that has really changed is the caliber of his results. I don't think he has anymore confidence than he's had in the past, he simply has the WC stripes on his jersey to permanently improve his status in the sport. That in itself garners respect among his peers and among fans. If you take into consideration that he's always been fairly consistent in his performances in virtually every race he enters with the exception of the past 2 Tours, it shouldn't have come as a surprise that he had honored the WC stripes better than most have in the recent past. He had to have confidence and be aggressive to win the WC title in the first place so neither confidence or aggressive were attributes that he was lacking.

 

[movingtarget]

I agree about 'dot joining', which is all about speculation in regards to lots of riders whom we suspect of either doping or clean, yet who have not tested positive in the case of suspected dopers. Whether its the teams they rode for or great performances or non performances or best buddies with a known doper etc....

The best thing for posters in the clinic to do is lay out well reason and thought out arguments for and against. But posters are only human and alot of the comments are on gut feeling etc and misinformed dot joining. Even former dopers and current DS can get it wrong in their 'dot joining', re JVs opinion of Tondo.

Evans, clean? it is a hard one as he has ridden on big league doping teams in the past (T-Mobile) had great GT performances in a doped peloton (2005-2009) against dopers and currently rides for BMC (phonak) in another life and they were dirty to the bone.

Easy to come to a conclusion on an internet forum that most likely it aint all natural ability.

Every opinion on this forum is speculation unless the rider has already been caught. There is no definitive way of saying a certain rider is doping more than others. He wins two races, he does not dope ? He wins five races, he must be doping ? He does not win, he can't be doping ? It is all joining the dots. Evan's did not get many opportunities at T-Mobile. Was not picked for the TDF which was part of the reason for him leaving. Can't imagine him fitting in at that team anyway. But you are right about gut instinct and my gut instinct about Evans and Moncoutie is that they are both clean. I had serious doubts about Ricco, Rebellin and Kohl. Not that I was happy about being right. I would never have suspected someone like Thomas Dekker because at that time his form was not that great and a lot of the time, performance can be linked to doping, not that it's a foolproof assumption. Presumably that is why a lot of people are doubting Gilbert's success.

 

[Benotti69]

Every opinion on this forum is speculation unless the rider has already been caught. There is no definitive way of saying a certain rider is doping more than others. He wins two races, he does not dope ? He wins five races, he must be doping ? He does not win, he can't be doping ? It is all joining the dots. Evan's did not get many opportunities at T-Mobile. Was not picked for the TDF which was part of the reason for him leaving. Can't imagine him fitting in at that team anyway. But you are right about gut instinct and my gut instinct about Evans and Moncoutie is that they are both clean. I had serious doubts about Ricco, Rebellin and Kohl. Not that I was happy about being right. I would never have suspected someone like Thomas Dekker because at that time his form was not that great and a lot of the time, performance can be linked to doping, not that it's a foolproof assumption. Presumably that is why a lot of people are doubting Gilbert's success.

I post here knowing that it is a forum. I give my opinion, post links that may interest others etc....I dont expect more from it apart from learning more about the seedy side of what appears to be as prevalent as ever.

I also think it is a benchmark for how the sport is dealing with its problems and there are a lot of super members who give great input into clinic business. it can be depressing but what i have learnt in here has enabled me to watch all sport with a better understanding of performances. I dont think everyone dopes but i do think most do at the very top levels, especially in those sports where money is the motivation.

Evans has performed well in the blood transfusion era and again in the micro doping era? If he was so good in the blood doping era why is he not better now than those he was coming second and third too in the micro doping era?

Yes, questions? I don't know answers! Who does? Ferarri, Fuentes, McQuaid, Bruyneel, Och, Riis etc..them big bosses!

 

[ChrisE]

I personally think the peloton is cleaner now than it has been in the past, mainly due to the spotlight on it the last couple of years. Looking at Cadel's results, they are remarkedly consistent in GT's except the 2009 tour. I really can't remember what happened there. He placed low in last year's tour I believe because he rode a hard Giro, and he crashed I think.

Look how close he finished to AC in 2007. Then look how he couldn't catch Sastre in 2008. His results are very weird IMO, and don't make much sense considering who has beaten him, by what margin, and the prevailing opinion about their doping status at that time. And, it always seems lately that he has an off day here and there and fell away in the Giro last year, which adds to the belief he may be clean.

But, if he has always been clean and placed as well as he did in the past vs a drugged up AC for example, then why can't he win now if my opinion about the present peloton is valid? Why couldn't he win in 2008? I personally think his doping habits ebb and flow with the peloton's, which is why these reformed dopers continue to do well. The best rises to the top in a level playing field, and he is just not quite the best in GT's under any condition.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Why couldn't he win in 2008?

Fatigue, IMO. His performances in the 3rd week (Alps, 2nd ITT) were sub-par.

 

[ChrisE]

Fatigue, IMO. His performances in the 3rd week (Alps, 2nd ITT) were sub-par.

Yes, after finishing 23 seconds down the year before to a flying AC.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Yes, after finishing 23 seconds down the year before to a flying AC.

What's your point?

 

[ChrisE]

What's your point?

Go back and read my first post, slowly this time. Thanks.

 

[hughmoore]

.
His results are very weird IMO, and don't make much sense considering who has beaten him, by what margin, and the prevailing opinion about their doping status at that time. Why couldn't he win in 2008? .

Crikey Chris, have you actually watched any of these races.

"He placed low in last year's tour I believe because he rode a hard Giro, and he crashed I think. "


You think, are you sure, he broke his elbow while in yellow, maybe that had something to do with his results, most others would have pulled out of the race, yet he finished.

"Look how close he finished to AC in 2007. Then look how he couldn't catch Sastre in 2008."

I havent watched the 2007 DVD for a while, but iirc, the time bonuses gave AC the edge overall.

In 2008, he was competing against far superior team in CSC who had three GC contendors. It is a team sport after all.


Fell away in the Giro last year, - Once again competing against better team and he did get sick.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Go back and read my first post, slowly this time. Thanks.

So, Cadel and "the peloton" were less doped in 2008 versus a year earlier. According to your theory.

Ricco, Piepoli, Beltran, Fofonov, Schumacher, Kohl and Duenas tested positive in or after the 2008 Tour. Proof that the system worked, I guess. The rest of the peloton was, of course, way less doped than in 2007.

Yeah, that must have been it.

 

[Midnightfright]

I personally think the peloton is cleaner now than it has been in the past, mainly due to the spotlight on it the last couple of years. Looking at Cadel's results, they are remarkedly consistent in GT's except the 2009 tour. I really can't remember what happened there. He placed low in last year's tour I believe because he rode a hard Giro, and he crashed I think.

Look how close he finished to AC in 2007. Then look how he couldn't catch Sastre in 2008. His results are very weird IMO, and don't make much sense considering who has beaten him, by what margin, and the prevailing opinion about their doping status at that time. And, it always seems lately that he has an off day here and there and fell away in the Giro last year, which adds to the belief he may be clean.

But, if he has always been clean and placed as well as he did in the past vs a drugged up AC for example, then why can't he win now if my opinion about the present peloton is valid? Why couldn't he win in 2008? I personally think his doping habits ebb and flow with the peloton's, which is why these reformed dopers continue to do well. The best rises to the top in a level playing field, and he is just not quite the best in GT's under any condition.

So he's a smart doper then knows when to lay low. Do you think he would have an intricate knowledge of his rivals programmes and follow suit accordingly? Im just wondering aint too sure myself.

 

[Paco_P]

seems that Cadel polarizes people pretty quickly, but honestly with all this doping news going round is any one prepared to say that Cadel is anything but clean?

For the record, I doubt that Cadel is clean.