Does anyone doubt Cadel is clean?

[Tyler'sTwin]

Apparently Lemond was clean and could push about 5.9w/kg up the climbs at the end of the TDF. I've seen nothing to suggest Evans pushes anything more than that, maybe as high as 6.1. As opposed to evidence of Contador, Armstrong, Pantani pushing 6.8+
Put in perspective if Lemond set the 100m WR in 10 seconds we are looking at these other 3 going 15% faster or running in about 8.7 seconds. and Cadel plodding around at 9.6 seconds.

Honestly, the case against Cadel, went to some doping teams. Performs close to the top in GTs. Rides a bike for money

For: didn't fit in at said teams, results have come in soft years (armstrong laughed at 2008), consistent year long, fades 3rd week.

15% in power is not 15% in speed.

 

[woodie]

2008 Vuelta:

8 David MONCOUTIÉ (FRA) COF +10'10"

Out of genuine curiousity why is Moncoutie seen as 100% clean where as everyone else is on drugs??

I am honestly curious. Thanks

 

[Mambo95]

Out of genuine curiousity why is Moncoutie seen as 100% clean where as everyone else is on drugs??

I am honestly curious. Thanks

He's a complete new age hippy type. He famously won't even take an aspirin or a vitamin tablet. He's into homeopathic medicine and that mumbo jumbo.

 

[Roninho]

Out of genuine curiousity why is Moncoutie seen as 100% clean where as everyone else is on drugs??

I am honestly curious. Thanks

He's a complete new age hippy type. He famously won't even take an aspirin or a vitamin tablet. He's into homeopathic medicine and that mumbo jumbo.

Actually that isn't the reason (at least for me), he could say he doesn't take anything, and still use dope secretly.

In 2003 or 2004 Phillipe gaumont (a cofidis-rider) was arrested and confessed to doping his whole career. According to him 95% of the peleton used dope, and named colleagues he had doped with. He said that during his whole career at cofidis (7 years) he had only had 2 teammates who did not dope: Moncoutie and Janek Tombak. He later wrote a book, a quote about this in his book (in french): "J’ai passé sept années chez Cofidis et, durant tout ce temps, je n’ai côtoyé que deux coureurs qui ne prenaient pas de produits: l’Estonien Janek Tombak et, surtout, le Français David Moncoutié"

I see no reason why Gaumont would name everyone but those two, apart from them actually being clean.

The fact that Moncoutie did not dope during that time in which he won a tdf-stage, finished 13th in the tdf, 4th in paris nice, took a stage win in the dauphine libere and importantly did not increased his performances massively later in his career is the reason why i think he actually is and has been dope free for all of his career.

 

[Roninho]

He was 13th in 2002. If he could do that clean nine years ago, a top 10 placing in 2010 while clean shouldn't be a stretch.

Yeah, but he did that due to a breakaway, not by actually being able to stay with the top riders in the mountains. A bit like how Michael Boogerd got most of his top 15-20 tdf finishes.

Imo Moncoutie isn't a guy that could keep up with the 10 best riders 3 weeks long at the TDF, he has to do it with a breakaway.

 

[karlboss]

15% in power is not 15% in speed.

My apologies for oversimplifying.
If you'd like to do the actual speed calculations on climbs and equate to power go ahead. Given the relationship to VAM and w/kg I think you'll find speed to power will work just fine for simple illistrative purposes.

 

[frenchfry]

Moncoutie to me at least is evidence that a rider can get a top 10 in the giro or vuelta, or win a mountain stage clean.
The level of competition in the TDF is a lot higher though, Moncoutie was never able to get close to being the one of the ten best climbers. Off course the question is how much was this due to dope, and how much because moncoutie simply wasn't good enough?

This is a very important question. If there was no doping, would Moncoutié be good enough to win a tour? The sad thing is that we will never know the answer for the simple reason that as long as the majority of contenders are doping no objective analysis can be done. Maybe he would have been a consistent winner or maybe just another unspectacular top 10 finisher.

I think he does remarkably well for a clean rider. Keep in mind that he isn't the greatest bike handler (something I can relate to!) which would penalize him if he was in a fight for the top placings - but who knows what might have happened if he had the opportunity.

Doping sucks.

 

[woodie]

Actually that isn't the reason (at least for me), he could say he doesn't take anything, and still use dope secretly.

In 2003 or 2004 Phillipe gaumont (a cofidis-rider) was arrested and confessed to doping his whole career. According to him 95% of the peleton used dope, and named colleagues he had doped with. He said that during his whole career at cofidis (7 years) he had only had 2 teammates who did not dope: Moncoutie and Janek Tombak. He later wrote a book, a quote about this in his book (in french): "J’ai passé sept années chez Cofidis et, durant tout ce temps, je n’ai côtoyé que deux coureurs qui ne prenaient pas de produits: l’Estonien Janek Tombak et, surtout, le Français David Moncoutié"

I see no reason why Gaumont would name everyone but those two, apart from them actually being clean.

The fact that Moncoutie did not dope during that time in which he won a tdf-stage, finished 13th in the tdf, 4th in paris nice, took a stage win in the dauphine libere and importantly did not increased his performances massively later in his career is the reason why i think he actually is and has been dope free for all of his career.

Fair enough. Thank you

 

[Benotti69]

He's a complete new age hippy type. He famously won't even take an aspirin or a vitamin tablet. He's into homeopathic medicine and that mumbo jumbo.

Mambo jumbo perhaps

 

[Benotti69]

Did anyone mention Och is on BMC and he is as clean as a warthog

 

[eatyourvitamins]

Yes. It is worrying. If cadel has always been clean I can't see how it would make a difference. He is hardly going to just start doping now depending on who runs the team etc...

However if he has been dirty for some or all of his career then well it simply follows and looks a little worse than before maybe.

It depends on what you believe and choose to see and vice versa.

 

[sylvan]

Freddy V Influence?

Did anyone mention Och is on BMC and he is as clean as a warthog

Riding for BMC-Phonak with Och and Freddy V after a great finish to the 2009 season along with Gilbert, coincidentally the same year that Viaene joined Lotto to work with Gilbert, then moved with Cuddles to BMC? That ain't suspicious at all.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

He's a complete new age hippy type. He famously won't even take an aspirin or a vitamin tablet. He's into homeopathic medicine and that mumbo jumbo.

"If you want vitamin C, eat an orange". That's pretty much the summary of why people have faith in Moncoutié.

With his refusal of supplements and tablets because they're not "real food", and his laissez-faire approach to training, Pierrick Fedrigo is probably the successor to Moncoutié.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Riding for BMC-Phonak with Och and Freddy V after a great finish to the 2009 season along with Gilbert, coincidentally the same year that Viaene joined Lotto to work with Gilbert, then moved with Cuddles to BMC? That ain't suspicious at all.

Viaene is a massage therapist and personal trainer. If Cadel was doping he wouldn't be learning about it from him. I think you are reading too much into things because someone moves to a team with another rider.

 

[Sheltowee]

seems that Cadel polarizes people pretty quickly, but honestly with all this doping news going round is any one prepared to say that Cadel is anything but clean?

Cadel Evan + Telecom = doping. Besides his blubbery face tells me he's been using testoserone for training recovery & Prednisone for pain.

 

[Lanark]

Viaene is a massage therapist and personal trainer. If Cadel was doping he wouldn't be learning about it from him. I think you are reading too much into things because someone moves to a team with another rider.

Viaene was accused of supplying dope a couple of year back by a Belgium newspaper, not surprising of course, almost everyone he has worked with was caught eventually.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Viaene is a massage therapist and personal trainer. If Cadel was doping he wouldn't be learning about it from him. I think you are reading too much into things because someone moves to a team with another rider.

Why would you go to a gynaecologist for your dope? What did Elisa Basso do as a job?

I'm not saying that Viaene has done anything, just that saying what his job title is does not preclude the possibility of his being involved in doping. Al Capone was officially a florist or something like that.

 

[2beeDammed]

Cadel Evan + Telecom = doping. Besides his blubbery face tells me he's been using testoserone for training recovery & Prednisone for pain.

BINGO !

 

[Frosty]

Actually that isn't the reason (at least for me), he could say he doesn't take anything, and still use dope secretly.

In 2003 or 2004 Phillipe gaumont (a cofidis-rider) was arrested and confessed to doping his whole career. According to him 95% of the peleton used dope, and named colleagues he had doped with. He said that during his whole career at cofidis (7 years) he had only had 2 teammates who did not dope: Moncoutie and Janek Tombak. He later wrote a book, a quote about this in his book (in french): "J’ai passé sept années chez Cofidis et, durant tout ce temps, je n’ai côtoyé que deux coureurs qui ne prenaient pas de produits: l’Estonien Janek Tombak et, surtout, le Français David Moncoutié"

I see no reason why Gaumont would name everyone but those two, apart from them actually being clean.

Could be many reasons why you might want to paint someone in a good light. Not saying Gaumont is lying but is there any other evidence from this period to back him up?

 

[2beeDammed]

2005 Popovych works with Armstrong to win the Tour. 2007 Popovych works with Contador and wins the Tour.2008 he moves to Silence -Lotto to work with Cadel and has a very 'crap' year. At the end of 2008 he leaves Lotto and heads to Astana....then on to Radio Shack.

So why do you think his year at Lotto was so bad? Yet when he's at other teams he rides so much better?

 

[auscyclefan94]

Why would you go to a gynaecologist for your dope? What did Elisa Basso do as a job?

I'm not saying that Viaene has done anything, just that saying what his job title is does not preclude the possibility of his being involved in doping. Al Capone was officially a florist or something like that.

I think Al Capone is a bit different but anyway. I am just saying that is a little far fetched. Because a belgian newspaper alledged it does it necessarily mean it's true? It could be true but we all know how much journalists especially sports journalists make things up and often get things wrong.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

No way Cuddles is clean

At the risk of upsetting the teenage Cuddles fanboys, there is no way the squeaky one is clean.

2nd race of the year with 1 race-day in the legs, Tirreno - victory.
1st race after a break since injury Romandie - victory.

He's on a team led by Och and Andy 'Phonak' Riis and a team that was one of the weakest last year is suddenly super strong

Past bouts of roid rage and a dodgy team history.

Can't help but think that if the roles had been reversed and Vino had beaten Cuddles today that the 'Vino is back to his old tricks' hue and cry would have gone up, but because Cuddles is a nice english speaker no one dares say a word against him.

 

[Hugh Januss]

At the risk of upsetting the teenage Cuddles fanboys, there is no way the squeaky one is clean.

2nd race of the year with 1 race-day in the legs, Tirreno - victory.
1st race after a break since injury Romandie - victory.

He's on a team led by Och and Andy 'Phonak' Riis and a team that was one of the weakest last year is suddenly super strong

Past bouts of roid rage and a dodgy team history.

Can't help but think that if the roles had been reversed and Vino had beaten Cuddles today that the 'Vino is back to his old tricks' hue and cry would have gone up, but because Cuddles is a nice english speaker no one dares say a word against him.

I think we had this one once before. Maybe the clinic just needs one stickied thread entitled "No way <insert your least favorite rider here> is clean" instead of different threads for different dopers.
Cancellara - he's clean Riis would never stoop to bending the rules
Gilbert - obviously clean why else would he even consider riding for doper Vino's team?
Evens- he has always avoided dodgy team affiliations
Basso - never did anything more than "think about doping"

We could go on and make a list nearly as long as the forum.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Indeed, it is slightly tongue-in-cheek, given the Vino hatred vs Cuddles love that we get in the media.

If it had been Vino, Menchov, Dertie, or even a Cack rider producing this kind of form then that rider would be getting a lot more heat.

I don't understand why Brunyeel/Riis/Anderson teams get a harder time than say Och/Rihs teams. Given what we know about those them.

Look at how BMC have ridden this year at Flanders and again this week, and this is a team that was a joke last year and now they are bossing the peloton. I don't think they've upped their game but they have certainly upped their programme.

 

[peloton]

Indeed, it is slightly tongue-in-cheek, given the Vino hatred vs Cuddles love that we get in the media.

If it had been Vino, Menchov, Dertie, or even a Cack rider producing this kind of form then that rider would be getting a lot more heat.

I don't understand why Brunyeel/Riis/Anderson teams get a harder time than say Och/Rihs teams. Given what we know about those them

This.

+100