Does anyone doubt Cadel is clean?

[patricknd]

I heard something like this as well. Cadel was winning on the dirt when testing was a bit lax and most of his WC competitors were doped.

but in his defence, his competition was a bunch of mountain bikers ( DOPE SMOKERS ) and they don't do anything fast. and correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't cadel have a chihuahua? i mean come on you know he's straight (dorky) if he has a chihuahua for god's sake, so yeah, he could be clean.

 

[auscyclefan94]

but in his defence, his competition was a bunch of mountain bikers ( DOPE SMOKERS ) and they don't do anything fast. and correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't cadel have a chihuahua? i mean come on you know he's straight (dorky) if he has a chihuahua for god's sake, so yeah, he could be clean.

I don't think Molly is a chihuahua!

 

[delbified]

if you've read his (auto)biography, he is at pains to stress his clean approach to cycling. that's one of two things:
1. honesty, knowing that he's got nothing to hide, or
2. audacity to a degree previously unhead of.

i don't think it's #2. even lance prefers to steer the conversation away from doping and he has a lot of front. human nature is a powerful force - you can read a lot into it. cadel isn't the sort of guy who would grandstand about being clean, if he wasn't. that being said, anything's possible.

 

[Bike Boy]

My last bit of hope vanished, with Clentador. I will never accuse a rider of dope, especially not Evans, but I no longer live under the illusion that the actions of the GC guys are shining clean.

Does everyone in top 10 in the GTs dope? I don't think so, there will always be riders more naturally gifted than others, why else do we see pathetic riders dope just to stay inside top 100? But I can't know anything for sure.

I would like to believe that a great rider will be able to win clean, but again I will most likely never find out.

 

[Hugh Januss]

if you've read his (auto)biography, he is at pains to stress his clean approach to cycling. that's one of two things:
1. honesty, knowing that he's got nothing to hide, or
2. audacity to a degree previously unhead of.

i don't think it's #2. even lance prefers to steer the conversation away from doping and he has a lot of front. human nature is a powerful force - you can read a lot into it. cadel isn't the sort of guy who would grandstand about being clean, if he wasn't. that being said, anything's possible.

1. Lance "likes his credibility".
2. see #1 Evens is still only 2nd.....at best.

Bottom line they all do it, anyone who doesn't is unemployed. They all lie about it when they get caught. Some lies are more entertaining than others.
There was never a time when cycling was 100% clean, there was certainly a time (but not now) when a clean rider could win.
END OF STORY.

 

[The Hitch]

There was never a time when cycling was 100% clean, there was certainly a time (but not now) when a clean rider could win.
END OF STORY.

The situation of doping in sport nicely summarized in one sentence.

 

[delbified]

Bottom line they all do it, anyone who doesn't is unemployed.

i'm not so sure. why are so many spanish cyclists caught, for instance? why are some riders at their strongest in the 3rd week of a GT? it's not a level playing field.

 

[Hugh Januss]

i'm not so sure. why are so many spanish cyclists caught, for instance? why are some riders at their strongest in the 3rd week of a GT? it's not a level playing field.

Maybe because different guys are willing/can afford different levels of "preparation" for specific races. Also, if you believe your guy can win the tour that may mean a pretty good sized payday for you. In that case you might be willing to charge to a higher (and more risky) level than otherwise.
Slim chance of you or a teammate winning anything translates to little prerace doping and minor recovery doping.
Good chance of teammate winning means throw in whole hog.
Going for stage wins? Roll the dice, how lucky do you feel?
Don't know for sure about the Spanish question. Maybe they are in the crosshairs right now?

 

[Maxiton]

1. Lance "likes his credibility".
2. see #1 Evens is still only 2nd.....at best.

Bottom line they all do it, anyone who doesn't is unemployed. They all lie about it when they get caught. Some lies are more entertaining than others.
There was never a time when cycling was 100% clean, there was certainly a time (but not now) when a clean rider could win.
END OF STORY.

I agree with this. It might be possible to race a grand tour behind the Laughing Group without medical preparation, but certainly not in the GC. You can call this medical preparation "doping" if you want, but I doubt the riders call it that or think of it in that way.

I suppose we can't know with 100% certainty about any rider until they're busted, but if Cuddles is totally clean he has to be the most gifted athlete on the planet, and among the most gifted ever. If he is that gifted, he would be doing himself a bit of a disservice to compete without the advantages the others have.

 

[auscyclefan94]

The situation of doping in sport nicely summarized in one sentence.

You might be right but I'd like some evidence to back up your contention.

 

[delbified]

Good chance of teammate winning means throw in whole hog.
Going for stage wins? Roll the dice, how lucky do you feel?

i think this is right. we've seen Flandis do it and go bust, we've seen a lot of "inspirational" turnarounds by riders at the Tour on stages that look like miracle rides. the Cobra's stage wins before getting booted out in 2008 and Stefan Schumacher's epic breakaways (if unsuccessful in winning anything) spring to mind. many of Lance's performances seem almost superhuman.

but going back to Evans - when has he ever shown that kind of "superhuman" energy? people mock him for not attacking much, but his physiological figures (VO2 etc.) are reportedly astronomical and his performances are first class, if not quite up there with Contador and Armstrong. maybe there's a good reason for that and for the range of other "mortal" riders out there who don't seem to be able to just spring away from the peloton at will.

 

[hrotha]

Even during the worst times of the EPO era, in Festina, Bassons and Lefevre were clean. Several years later, Gaumont said Tombak and Moncoutié didn't dope. So no, not everybody dopes. I was going to say "maybe everybody that matters dopes", but that wouldn't be accurate either - Moncoutié's had some pretty good results throughout his whole career.

 

[2beeDammed]

but going back to Evans - when has he ever shown that kind of "superhuman" energy? people mock him for not attacking much, but his physiological figures (VO2 etc.) are reportedly astronomical and his performances are first class, if not quite up there with Contador and Armstrong. maybe there's a good reason for that and for the range of other "mortal" riders out there who don't seem to be able to just spring away from the peloton at will.

+ 1 for this, if he's doped he has a crap doctor.

 

[The Hitch]

You might be right but I'd like some evidence to back up your contention.

Its Hughs sentence not mine. But i can certainatly back up the first half of the sentence - "cycling has never been 100% clean" - doping as early as first Tour de France, and of course Coppi 50's Simpson 60's Mercx 70's show that its always been there.

As for the second half of the sentence - "a clean rider cant win", i base that on the science of sport article which claims that epo can give a boost of 30%.
I also base it on the fact that there are more cyclists now. When you have 500 cyclists there is a bigger gap between them and cyclist #10 has a larger gap he needs to close through doping to #1 as they are all spaced out. However when you have thousands of amateur and proffesional cyclists the gap gets smaller. Now the same gap that covered 1 through 10, covers 1 through 100. This comes hand in hand with increased potency among the drugs. So now there are far more people who can become champions by doping than there were 40 years ago.

Finaly I base it on the fact that we know that in the 90's and 00's it wasnt possible to win without doping,

Which brings us to 2011. People say they "know" cycling is clean now because they want to believe it. But these same people were saying the same things in the 90's and the 00's. I on the other hand am a cynic. I would like it to be true. I wish there was no doping. But emotions should never influence judgment. There is no reason for me to believe that anything has changed. There are a lot of things i would like to believe. But life is a cruel place. There is no moral code to it. Cyclists have always doped. In the amphetimine era it wasnt the be all end all. In the epo era it is. Why would they stop now?

 

[Potomac]

I suspect Evans is as clean as the rest of the peleton.

 

[JA.Tri]

I am a Cadel fan and some would suggest that precludes objectivity. You are right, just my biased opinion...I hope/believe/wishfully think that for his rr career C has been, and remains a "non doper".

Having said that I would not be surprised if he:

1. experimented with methods, that at the time were "legal" but, that were subsequently banned by the relevant authorities
2. had in the past used "medical assistance" for post race recovery
3. experimented with one or more ergogenic "illegal" aids during his mtb career as hearsay (also mentioned above) suggests.

I also place maybe undue weight on my perception of him: prickly, outspoken, thoughtful and honest. Accepting that even the brutally honest occasionally shade the truth.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

My last bit of hope vanished, with Clentador. I will never accuse a rider of dope, especially not Evans, but I no longer live under the illusion that the actions of the GC guys are shining clean.

Does everyone in top 10 in the GTs dope?

2008 Vuelta:

8 David MONCOUTIÉ (FRA) COF +10'10"

 

[gree0232]

I am guessing, having seen the pattern, that Cadel will be considered clean right up to the point where he wins a Grand Tour.

Then, how else could he have beaten all the dopers ... unless he himself doped?

That is my take.

 

[JA.Tri]

I am guessing, having seen the pattern, that Cadel will be considered clean right up to the point where he wins a Grand Tour.

Then, how else could he have beaten all the dopers ... unless he himself doped?

That is my take.

Certainly a significant minority of posters will conclude Cadel is a doper should he win a GT.

However whether those same posters (and others ) would accept Cadel is currently clean, is another kettle of fish entirely!

 

[Roninho]

+ 1 for this, if he's doped he has a crap doctor.

?? Not saying he doped, but evans finished 2nd in the TDF twice as well as 5th, had 3 (?) top 5 finishes in the giro&vuelta, and won the world championship.

Just look at a guy like Jorg Jaksche, a top 20 tdf rider at best, and he was on a full program at Fuentes. Just look at the t-mobile guys who went to freiburg, those guys were on a good programm and half of them where good domestiques in the tdf at best. What about Paco Mancebo? You could bet money on him being like the 6th or 7th to last guy to break and lose contact with Armstrong. So he had crap dope?

Saying Evans had crap dope because he didn't blow everyone away in the latter stages of the tdf is b-s. He was one of the best and performed much better then guys on a full program.

 

[Roninho]

2008 Vuelta:

8 David MONCOUTIÉ (FRA) COF +10'10"

Moncoutie to me at least is evidence that a rider can get a top 10 in the giro or vuelta, or win a mountain stage clean.
The level of competition in the TDF is a lot higher though, Moncoutie was never able to get close to being the one of the ten best climbers. Off course the question is how much was this due to dope, and how much because moncoutie simply wasn't good enough?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Moncoutie to me at least is evidence that a rider can get a top 10 in the giro or vuelta, or win a mountain stage clean.
The level of competition in the TDF is a lot higher though, Moncoutie was never able to get close to being the one of the ten best climbers. Off course the question is how much was this due to dope, and how much because moncoutie simply wasn't good enough?

I think in addition to dope and natural talent limitations, another question is whether Moncoutié could cope with the pressure. He's a rather whimsical personality, I don't think he'd deal well with the pressure of being a Frenchman in the upper echelons of the GC of the Tour. He seems much happier at his own level, and considering that he's one of the few guys out there who seems to do it out of sheer joy, it's hard to blame him for it. He does pretty well at what he does, he's popular, well-known and he makes enough to get by, so all power to him.

 

[hrotha]

Moncoutie to me at least is evidence that a rider can get a top 10 in the giro or vuelta, or win a mountain stage clean.
The level of competition in the TDF is a lot higher though, Moncoutie was never able to get close to being the one of the ten best climbers. Off course the question is how much was this due to dope, and how much because moncoutie simply wasn't good enough?

He was 13th in 2002. If he could do that clean nine years ago, a top 10 placing in 2010 while clean shouldn't be a stretch.

 

[El Pistolero]

I think in addition to dope and natural talent limitations, another question is whether Moncoutié could cope with the pressure. He's a rather whimsical personality, I don't think he'd deal well with the pressure of being a Frenchman in the upper echelons of the GC of the Tour. He seems much happier at his own level, and considering that he's one of the few guys out there who seems to do it out of sheer joy, it's hard to blame him for it. He does pretty well at what he does, he's popular, well-known and he makes enough to get by, so all power to him.

He's going for the KoM at the Tour this year. I'd be surprised if he didn't get it.

He already did a top 20 at the Tour and has won stages in it.

He's a good climber, but is smart enough to realize he'll never win a GT, so he goes for the KoM and stage wins instead.

 

[karlboss]

Apparently Lemond was clean and could push about 5.9w/kg up the climbs at the end of the TDF. I've seen nothing to suggest Evans pushes anything more than that, maybe as high as 6.1. As opposed to evidence of Contador, Armstrong, Pantani pushing 6.8+
Put in perspective if Lemond set the 100m WR in 10 seconds we are looking at these other 3 going 15% faster or running in about 8.7 seconds. and Cadel plodding around at 9.6 seconds.

Honestly, the case against Cadel, went to some doping teams. Performs close to the top in GTs. Rides a bike for money

For: didn't fit in at said teams, results have come in soft years (armstrong laughed at 2008), consistent year long, fades 3rd week.