Does Basso's Vuelta Performance Confirm his Doping at 2006 Giro?

[Hugh Januss]

We've been over that. It wasn't where he left off.

Originally Posted by Thoughtforfood
Well, Armstrong came back and got 3rd place, which isn't his best, but as close as he will ever get again

You kind of seemed to answer TFF's post but ignored the most important point of it. I have highlighted it here in case you want to try again.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

But see, he will never win again. All he has left is jerseys accumulating dust because there isn't going to be another one to join them regardless of the fact that he transfused his own blood twice during the 2009 Tour. But 3rd is pretty good...I guess...

Yes it's hard to see him winning eight. If he really wanted to do so he should have stayed on for a few years - it's difficult to imagine he would not have won at least two more.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

But this thread is about Basso and how his obvious dope-a-thon has to have ended considering that he cannot even beat Cadel Evans...

Indeed. It wasn't me who brought up Armstrong.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

You kind of seemed to answer TFF's post but ignored the most important point of it. I have highlighted it here in case you want to try again.

Why would that be the most important point for him? I really don't know if LA can do better than third again - your guess is as good as mine. I suppose there is a chance he could do better given the third in the first year back. But he is getting quite old for GC. Can he really go on making the podium forever? I doubt it.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Why would that be the most important point for him? I really don't know if LA can do better than third again - your guess is as good as mine. I suppose there is a chance he could do better given the third in the first year back. But he is getting quite old for GC. Can he really go on making the podium forever? I doubt it.

Exactly the point. He is getting older so 3rd this year is an effort equal to his last win 4 years ago thereby disproving your theory (or whatever it was) that it takes guys a couple of years to come back from time off.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Rare though isn't it. You don't see many GC guys picking off straight where they left off.

Thats an interesting viewpoint - and I believe you're probably right that Basso is cleaner then he was in 2006 while Armstrong hooked up again with his old buddies JB & probably Dr. Ferrari.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

Exactly the point. He is getting older so 3rd this year is an effort equal to his last win 4 years ago thereby disproving your theory (or whatever it was) that it takes guys a couple of years to come back from time off.

It's not my theory, it's the conventional wisdom. It varies from rider to rider for sure, but for the very elite GC contenders doing grand tours it's usually a year or two to get back to where they were. I think it's surprising how well Armstrong did given all of these factors. We just don't know if this is the top or if he can improve on that. The problem for him is that it's a moving target. Who knows, if RadioShack manage to sign up a really good young rider like Schleck then Armstrong might even retire before next year if the training doesn't go to plan this winter.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

Thats an interesting viewpoint - and I believe you're probably right that Basso is cleaner then he was in 2006 while Armstrong hooked up again with his old buddies JB & probably Dr. Ferrari.

You think Basso was clean this year? I didn't say that - I don't know. I said even if a rider dopes they can't get back to the top of the GC instantly from a few years out.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You think Basso was clean this year? I didn't say that - I don't know. I said even if a rider dopes they can't get back to the top of the GC instantly from a few years out.

I said Basso was cleaner!! Big difference from being clean.

It means he could have been blood doping prior to the Giro and Vuelta but not doping during those events - while with LA he was obviously doping during the TdF.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

I really don't know who is doping and who is not, but what happened to Greg Lemond in the early 1990s is instructive. Due to the new common place use of EPO, he went from Tour winner to not being able to finish a tour. He couldn't even keep up with the peloton one year and finished the stage in the real bus.

Imagine that? One of the greatest riders of all time - incredibly naturally gifted - not being able to finish a tour in the early 1990s.

 

[Anonymous]

He won the 2006 Giro by 13 minutes.

Now he is having trouble keeping up with watered down fields in the 3rd grand tour.

Does this all but confirm that he was doped to the gills in 2006?

It's an interesting question. I think the way he smoked everybody at the Giro in 2006 clearly was questionable and is more evidence of how dirty CSC was/Saxo Bank is. I find it very hard to believe Basso dopes so well in 06 with no knowledge from Riis.

So I'm left to question Sastre last year and the Schlecks last year and this.

 

[flicker]

Is there a doctor in the house?

It is unfortunate for cycling that Valverde and Basso were competing in the Vuelta. Really bad PR for the Spanish and Italian peleton.
Wrong message etc.
The haters of Lance, well good. You all have the right. I know that you know the science and the labs and Greg.
Thing is Lance promotes cycling, he is popular,, his cause and he is inspirational.
Lance has every reason not to be a fraud and I respectfully disagree with the haters you slam Lance you slam cycling. He, Contador and Schleck are the main men.
Be that as it may I have gut reactions about certain individuals but I can not be a hater. Takes way to much energy.

 

[Ripper]

I don't know if you need this year's performances to tell you his 2006 Giro was a steaming vat of turkey turd stewed in EPO/HGH

That aside, I have this feeling that Basso is clean this year. Can't get my thumb on it, and could be wrong. But it is big switch, from GT heavy hitter to off the podium x 2. I bet he must really love Valv-Piti!

 

[auscyclefan94]

It is unfortunate for cycling that Valverde and Basso were competing in the Vuelta. Really bad PR for the Spanish and Italian peleton.
Wrong message etc.
The haters of Lance, well good. You all have the right. I know that you know the science and the labs and Greg.
Thing is Lance promotes cycling, he is popular,, his cause and he is inspirational.
Lance has every reason not to be a fraud and I respectfully disagree with the haters you slam Lance you slam cycling. He, Contador and Schleck are the main men.
Be that as it may I have gut reactions about certain individuals but I can not be a hater. Takes way to much energy.

He may be good for cycling but is he any good with all the suspcion and baggage he brings along with him. AC doesn't have the most cleanest record. It seems like your saying that LA is popular so don't announce that he is a cheat.

 

[rhubroma]

I live in Italy, so, Basso's case hase particularly interested me, particularly in regards (as many of you might know) to his involvment in OP.

Now I have to say, despite his trying to project a "wholesome," "nice-guy" persona given his involvment with Fuentes to a rather nauseating degree at times, because hypocritical (though who isn't) and propagandistic; I have nevertheless always found him to be at least reserved and good natured. And for this reason I have continued to wish him well in his comeback, also given that who in this sport is on "bread and water" alone anyway.

In Basso's case, and in my own admitted hypocrisy (because not in Armstrong's, because he is neither reserved nor good natured, or, now, Valverde's, because in my book he should serve a universal 2 year ban), my view in judging him has been "let he who has not sinned, cast the first stone." Which just goes to show that I desperartely need in contemporary cycling some(one) reason to watch a grand tour, given that I agree with many that they're all, more or less, engaged in the same illicet practices.

Well then, Ivan's results of late in the first place have been disappointing and, in the second, have not surprised.

Was he doped in 2006? There's no doubt in my mind, just as he was in the previous several years when he was working his way up to the podium at the Tour and battling King Armstrong punch for punch in the mountains during the race.

Is he still doped today? I have know doubts in this regard either.

So why the aparent considerable drop in performance? I think, here, several factors need to be considered:

1.) Just prior to his being prohibited from starting the 06 Tour, Ivan was riding the crest of a performance wave, which had seen him make steady improvements over the past 5 years to the point where he was arguably poised to be the world's top stage racer post Armstrong. The moment he was not allowed to start the Tour, that trend was irrevocably arrested and, pretty much, destroyed. An athlete simply doesn't bounce back, under such circumstances (that is a massive injury, though an ultimately recoverable one, would have been better mentally), and take up where that inertia had left him off at the moment of his disgrace.

2.) While Ivan was serving his ban, certain known, but also unknown quantities, with huge talent began to enter a career phase that was takening them upon that same wave from which Basso had so abruptly been cast down. And these were the now seasoned and developed guys he would have to face upon his return to the highest level of the sport. Thus men like Menchov, Sastre, Pellizzoti, the same Di Luca (unfortunately), not to mention a Riccò had he not been equally banned, Evans, and, of course, the new darling of this sport, Alberto Contador. So not only would Ivan have had to be at least at the top of his game (that is 2006 level), but perhaps even better to be able to beat that lot. Again under the circumstances of his exclusion and return, I highly doubt that was possible or even realistic.

3.) I wonder if perhaps there was also pressure from the powers that be in cycling to make sure that Ivan would not come back and win a major Tour for the negative immage this would give the sport. I mean, how happy would the Giro and Vuelta organizers have been (not to mention the Tour which dealt with the issue by simply preventing him from participating), had an ex-OP condemned rider come back from his ban and win their races? How credible would such a win have been for the public?

Thus, I conclude, that Ivan has had to probably take a most cautious approach to his "preparation" and, in conjunction with the difficulties (both mental and physical) someone in his postion has had to overcome, for these reasons his performances have not enthused.

Post Scriptum: Ivan's case with OP evidences just how the current situation in the sport is simply intollerable. Not because he had to serve his time off, which was just, but because he has been sacrificed whereas others with identical culpability have been able to persue their dreams as if nothing had ever taken place.

Because Ivan seems to me to be rather nice (despite his unsavory sugar coating it at times), as also Contador has made public claims about for instance, makes his situation at least to me more striking in the sometimes cruelty of fate.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It is unfortunate for cycling that Valverde and Basso were competing in the Vuelta. Really bad PR for the Spanish and Italian peleton.
Wrong message etc.
The haters of Lance, well good. You all have the right. I know that you know the science and the labs and Greg.
Thing is Lance promotes cycling, he is popular,, his cause and he is inspirational.
Lance has every reason not to be a fraud and I respectfully disagree with the haters you slam Lance you slam cycling. He, Contador and Schleck are the main men.
Be that as it may I have gut reactions about certain individuals but I can not be a hater. Takes way to much energy.

Since you put the term 'doctor' in your headline I can assume your message is to me.

I find it ironic that you say you 'respectfully disagree" and then use the word haters! You mentioned you have gut reactions to certain individuals - does that mean you hate them? Do you hate Valverde and Basso?

As for Lance - he promotes Lance.
Yes he may be an inspiration to people and I admired his work on Cancer - but I did lose some of that when he admitted he has equity in Demand Media which bought and now runs Livestrong.com.

Yes - it could be argued that there may be more bums on bikes because of his return and more investment through sponsors - but it has been at the cost of rules and the removal of Clerc from ASO and AFLD from the Tour.

Will they hang around if the sport gets exposed again in another drug scandal?

I don't hate Lance - I just wish he never returned.

 

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[BYOP88]

It's an interesting question. I think the way he smoked everybody at the Giro in 2006 clearly was questionable and is more evidence of how dirty CSC was/Saxo Bank is. I find it very hard to believe Basso dopes so well in 06 with no knowledge from Riis.

So I'm left to question Sastre last year and the Schlecks last year and this.

I'm not so sure that Sastre was on the team programme at CSC/Saxo Bank maybe he was on his own programme. Maybe that's why Riis didn't love him the way he loved Basso and the Schlecks.

 

[bianchigirl]

rhubroma, I think your point that Basso, assisted or not, was on the crest of a performance wave in 2006 is a good one. I also agree that he has been his generation's scapegoat, just as Pantani was.

 

[Race Radio]

It is unfortunate for cycling that Valverde and Basso were competing in the Vuelta. Really bad PR for the Spanish and Italian peleton.
Wrong message etc.
The haters of Lance, well good. You all have the right. I know that you know the science and the labs and Greg.
Thing is Lance promotes cycling, he is popular,, his cause and he is inspirational.
Lance has every reason not to be a fraud and I respectfully disagree with the haters you slam Lance you slam cycling. He, Contador and Schleck are the main men.
Be that as it may I have gut reactions about certain individuals but I can not be a hater. Takes way to much energy.

Let me see if I get this straight. If I question Armstrong using Ferrari, the sports most notorious doping doctor. If I feel his treatment of Bassons, Simeoni, Betsy and Frankie, Lemond, Mike Anderson, is classless. If I ask about his team dumping bags of dope, or question why his Hct when UP in the last week of the Tour when everyone else goes down. If I question the fact that he gave $500,000 to the UCI, the group that is supposed to regulate him.

If I do any of this I am slaming cycling????

Thank you for showing us yet another reason why Armstrong is allowed to slide. His legions of clueless groupies ignore his negative actions and label anyone that questions them "Haters"

 

[British Pro Cycling]

Let me see if I get this straight. If I question Armstrong using Ferrari, the sports most notorious doping doctor. If I feel his treatment of Bassons, Simeoni, Betsy and Frankie, Lemond, Mike Anderson, is classless. If I ask about his team dumping bags of dope, or question why his Hct when UP in the last week of the Tour when everyone else goes down. If I question the fact that he gave $500,000 to the UCI, the group that is supposed to regulate him.

If I do any of this I am slaming cycling????

Thank you for showing us yet another reason why Armstrong is allowed to slide. His legions of clueless groupies ignore his negative actions and label anyone that questions them "Haters"

Some are haters, some aren't. Those people that list off a set of anti Armstrong talking points, some of which are based on rumour and assertion, don't do the sport any good. These people can be classed as haters. They're much more interested in talking down Armstrong than in the sport. You may have noted the way this thread was twisted into talking about Armstrong rather than Basso, for instance.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

I see the moderator didn't agree with my post on Greg Lemond. I merely stated that despite being one of the most naturally gifted riders, due to EPO sweeping the peloton from the early 1990s he could no longer finish a ToF.

Imagine that? A great tour champion unable to finish a tour in the early 1990s.

 

[Race Radio]

Some are haters, some aren't. Those people that list off a set of anti Armstrong talking points, some of which are based on rumour and assertion, don't do the sport any good. These people can be classed as haters. They're much more interested in talking down Armstrong than in the sport. You may have noted the way this thread was twisted into talking about Armstrong rather than Basso, for instance.

You have been banned three times. It appears you don't get the hint.

 

[Race Radio]

Some are haters, some aren't. Those people that list off a set of anti Armstrong talking points, some of which are based on rumour and assertion, don't do the sport any good. These people can be classed as haters. They're much more interested in talking down Armstrong than in the sport. You may have noted the way this thread was twisted into talking about Armstrong rather than Basso, for instance.

You have been banned three times. You don't take the hint do you?

 

[British Pro Cycling]

No you're confusing me with BanProCycling. My user name is British Pro Cycling - it has nothing to with banning cycling. How stupid would that be? All I am doing it talking about the issues. That guy must have been a troll that never talked about the subject and just went around swearing and insulting people. If he did that then he deserved to get banned.