Does Basso's Vuelta Performance Confirm his Doping at 2006 Giro?

[British Pro Cycling]

There seems to be conventional wisdom that it takes a couple of years to get to top form. What's the reasoning for that?

For rookies, I'd imagine it would take a couple of years to gain the trust of the doping illuminati, but why for guys coming back from injury, suspension, or presumably retirement?

I think it varies on the rider. But one thing that seems common is they need several high level competition races to assist the process of getting back up to form. For the very top GC riders it would probably take longer than for a domestique. Basso was likely doped in 2006 so I don't think he will ever get back to that high level.

 

[Hugh Januss]

There seems to be conventional wisdom that it takes a couple of years to get to top form. What's the reasoning for that?

For rookies, I'd imagine it would take a couple of years to gain the trust of the doping illuminati, but why for guys coming back from injury, suspension, or presumably retirement?

Maybe it just takes awhile to stockpile enough bags'o'blood?

 

[Bala Verde]

Not in itself, no. It would take most pros a couple of years of competition to get back to where they were before a two year ban. You can't replicate competition in training.

Funny actually.

I thought the science behind the 7 TdF victories of Mr. Armstrong dictated that out-of-competition training was the key to succes. Instead of competing (inter)nationally he chose to be absent from the (euro)pro peloton for most of the time, only to participate in AGR (1 day), Fleche (1 day), the Dauphine (7 days) and the TdF.

Didn't he say that he rode the TdF in the time that others sat on the couch?

In essence, Mr. Basso basically replicated Mr. Armstrong's scientifically proven training regime during his ban, minus 9 days of competiton...

Only this year in TdU, I heard Mr Armstrong explain for the first time that not training, but competition makes one a better rider. According to him, one could not possibly replicate power outputs spent in races, on training rides.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

Funny actually.

I thought the science behind the 7 TdF victories of Mr. Armstrong dictated that out-of-competition training was the key to succes. Instead of competing (inter)nationally he chose to be absent from the (euro)pro peloton for most of the time, only to participate in AGR (1 day), Fleche (1 day), the Dauphine (7 days) and the TdF.

Didn't he say that he rode the TdF in the time that others sat on the couch?

In essence, Mr. Basso basically replicated Mr. Armstrong's scientifically proven training regime during his ban, minus 9 days of competiton...

Only this year in TdU, I heard Mr Armstrong explain for the first time that not training, but competition makes one a better rider. According to him, one could not possibly replicate power outputs spent in races, on training rides.

Yes Armstrong was rare in that he could do with one big grand tour a year and not much else. Once some riders get up to that high level it seems they can manage with that. But as you say, coming back from not having ridden a GT for four years has changed that. He hasn't ruled out going "old school" again next year by doing the same type of preparation, riding the Giro as training for the ToF. Basso having not ridden a grand tour for 3 years will have been in the same camp this year. Nothing beats competition if they've been out for longer than a year.

 

[blackcat]

I'd say Basso's performance at the Vuelta confirms two things: 1) He used to dope and 2) He doesn't dope anymore.
I know he never really admitted to doing it, but at least he kind of admitted to trying to do it and I don't know why but I just have a lot more respect for him then for Valverde or Vinokourov ...

actually wrong

check out Basso's blood parameters. He has posted them.

Just as the Giro started, his HC was remarkably at its highest point for the year. He is just doing a maintenance program now.

 

[Bala Verde]

actually wrong

check out Basso's blood parameters. He has posted them.

Just as the Giro started, his HC was remarkably at its highest point for the year. He is just doing a maintenance program now.

The giro started May 9th 2009, on May 7th 2009 he was tested and reported an HC of 41.4. That is far from his highest score for the year 2009, which was 47.1 April 15th, doing altitude training.

Besides that, his highest HC scores were:

44 on April 30th 2009
44.1 on July 24th 2009
44.1 on August 24th 2009

The Vuelta started August 29th, but his most recent reported scores date back till August 24.

My question is, are higher HCs obtainable purely during training (excluding altitude training), and can one peak so precisely that 'HC spikes' occur close to the start of targeted races/stage races?

 

[Race Radio]

Quoting Basso word for word in late 2008:

"I will return to my previous level. If I didn't I wouldn't have any credibility to say I didn't use drugs"

Basso is living in a fantasy world.

CONI did not ban Basso for two years because he attempted to dope, they banned him because he doped.

Beyond the blood bags with his DNA they also found his doping schedule, invoices for blood bags delivered during the Giro, schedule for blood bags delivered, and multiple phone calls to Fuentes and his staff over 18 months. The evidence that he doped is overwhelming. He lied for almost a year when he said he never worked with Fuentes. His "Attempted to dope" line is just a modification of this lie.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

Funny actually.

I thought the science behind the 7 TdF victories of Mr. Armstrong dictated that out-of-competition training was the key to succes. Instead of competing (inter)nationally he chose to be absent from the (euro)pro peloton for most of the time, only to participate in AGR (1 day), Fleche (1 day), the Dauphine (7 days) and the TdF.

Didn't he say that he rode the TdF in the time that others sat on the couch?

In essence, Mr. Basso basically replicated Mr. Armstrong's scientifically proven training regime during his ban, minus 9 days of competiton...

Only this year in TdU, I heard Mr Armstrong explain for the first time that not training, but competition makes one a better rider. According to him, one could not possibly replicate power outputs spent in races, on training rides.

Yes Armstrong was rare in that he could do with one big grand tour a year and not much else. Once they get up to that high level it seems some riders can get away with that, though not many. But as you say, coming back from not having ridden a GT for four years has changed that for LA. He hasn't ruled out doing the same type of preparation next year by doing the Giro again as training for the ToF, going "old school". Basso having not ridden a grand tour for 3 years will have been in the same camp. If they're out for longer than a year quite a lot of competition is needed to get up to that very high standard.

 

[Race Radio]

Yes Armstrong was rare in that he could do with one big grand tour a year and not much else. Once they get up to that high level it seems some riders can get away with that, though not many. But as you say, coming back from not having ridden a GT for four years has changed that for LA. He hasn't ruled out doing the same type of preparation next year by doing the Giro again as training for the ToF, going "old school". Basso having not ridden a grand tour for 3 years will have been in the same camp. If they're out for longer than a year quite a lot of competition is needed to get up to that very high standard.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

That's a good point about doing individual climbs in training. It be must easier to do a mountain on your own without TV cameras, at a time of your choosing, without having done a 150k beforehand, than in a tour. Whether that is quite the same as the overall pressure of daily tour riding maybe is a bit different.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

Basso is living in a fantasy world.

CONI did not ban Basso for two years because he attempted to dope, they banned him because he doped.

Beyond the blood bags with his DNA they also found his doping schedule, invoices for blood bags delivered during the Giro, schedule for blood bags delivered, and multiple phone calls to Fuentes and his staff over 18 months. The evidence that he doped is overwhelming. He lied for almost a year when he said he never worked with Fuentes. His "Attempted to dope" line is just a modification of this lie.

That's why I said I don't think he will ever get back to where he was.

 

[Anonymous]

That's a good point about doing individual climbs in training. It be must easier to do a mountain on your own without TV cameras, at a time of your choosing, without having done a 150k beforehand, than in a tour. Whether that is quite the same as the overall pressure of daily tour riding maybe is a bit different.

Its also easier to do the drugs and then pull the blood out. The Chicken prefers Mexico, but it appears France works for The Uniballer so long as he gets his 20 minute "shower" so he can pump some saline in to drop the HCT before giving the sample. Thats what you get for under the table payments to the UCI.

 

[Galic Ho]

Funny actually.

I thought the science behind the 7 TdF victories of Mr. Armstrong dictated that out-of-competition training was the key to succes. Instead of competing (inter)nationally he chose to be absent from the (euro)pro peloton for most of the time, only to participate in AGR (1 day), Fleche (1 day), the Dauphine (7 days) and the TdF.

Didn't he say that he rode the TdF in the time that others sat on the couch?

In essence, Mr. Basso basically replicated Mr. Armstrong's scientifically proven training regime during his ban, minus 9 days of competiton...

Only this year in TdU, I heard Mr Armstrong explain for the first time that not training, but competition makes one a better rider. According to him, one could not possibly replicate power outputs spent in races, on training rides.

I've learnt soemthing new today. Had no idea Armstrong said that in the TDU. Not a very bight thing to do, a complete 180 on your stance on how to win. But I never did credit him with being too bright.

Now to Basso, well Ivan isn't the rider he use to be. Its very difficult to point out whether he is clean, partially clean and only using recovery drugs, or going the whole hog, because we don't know what the opposition are doing. I'll ere on the side of caution and maintain that he is probably hitting the HGH, IGF-1 and maybe some corticoids with the occasional blood bag/AICAR thrown in for good measure. Primarily because some of the things he's said don't sit well with me...they leave too much suspicion. Though I was joping he'd make the podium at the Vuelta...if he had, I'd have picked the entire podium minus Cadel. 4th in two grand tours beats third in only one considering the third was dragged around the countryside by his teammates. Basso actually worked in the Giro and Vuelta.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

Its also easier to do the drugs and then pull the blood out. The Chicken prefers Mexico, but it appears France works for The Uniballer so long as he gets his 20 minute "shower" so he can pump some saline in to drop the HCT before giving the sample. Thats what you get for under the table payments to the UCI.

The thing is, not a single doping rider I can think of has comeback to their best in their first few grand tours after a ban. So that can't be the whole story. Vino and Basso this year make the point.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

Unfortunately you have picked a user-name that resembles a troll who was running down a lot of threads on this forum.

The mods are pretty fair on this forum and allow quite a bit of leeway - but even they got tired of it in the end and the poster was banned- only to appear later that day under a very familiar user-name.

As I said, thanks for the heads up on that. My username is British Pro Cycling. It has nothing to do with banning cycling.

I thought for a minute my posts were being removed because someone disagreed with me. I didn't think this was that type of forum.

 

[Race Radio]

The thing is, not a single doping rider I can think of has comeback to their best in their first few grand tours after a ban. So that can't be the whole story. Vino and Basso this year make the point.

Miller won a TT stage of a Grand Tour his first year back.

 

[Race Radio]

As I said, thanks for the heads up on that. My username is British Pro Cycling. It has nothing to do with banning cycling.

I thought for a minute my posts were being removed because someone disagreed with me. I didn't think this was that type of forum.

For some reason I do not believe you.

 

[Anonymous]

The thing is, not a single doping rider I can think of has comeback to their best in their first few grand tours after a ban. So that can't be the whole story. Vino and Basso this year make the point.

Well, Armstrong came back and got 3rd place, which isn't his best, but as close as he will ever get again.

 

[Anonymous]

As I said, thanks for the heads up on that. My username is British Pro Cycling. It has nothing to do with banning cycling.

I thought for a minute my posts were being removed because someone disagreed with me. I didn't think this was that type of forum.

This is not nearly as clever Trollkraft as you think.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

Miller won a TT stage of a Grand Tour his first year back.

Rare though isn't it. You don't see many GC guys picking off straight where they left off.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

Well, Armstrong came back and got 3rd place, which isn't his best, but as close as he will ever get again.

We've been over that. It wasn't where he left off.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

This is not nearly as clever Trollkraft as you think.

What's trolling about it? I didn't think Cycling news was a place where people get deleted for not agreeing with a moderator, and now I know it is not. They just got me confused with some other guy who was ruining the threads by refusing to talk about the subjects and went around swearing and insulting people instead. Anyone who does that deserves to be banned.

 

[Anonymous]

Rare though isn't it. You don't see many GC guys picking off straight where they left off.

It has to be killing your ego to not be able to be all in our face about who you are. I don't think you will last very long personally, but who knows? The funny thing is that on occasion, you made a point or two that were coherent and well thought. Maybe being forced to only troll a bare minimum will make you somewhat useful and interesting to deal with. I doubt it as you cannot seem to keep your posting to a minimum, and will string out threads which is a side effect of trolling even when the posts are not filled with barbs. You really should come over from the dark side of the Trollkraft Force and join those who understand that Armstrong is a fraud and deserves contempt and little else. I mean, heck, even Darth Vader had a little life left in him.

 

[Anonymous]

We've been over that. It wasn't where he left off.

But see, he will never win again. All he has left is jerseys accumulating dust because there isn't going to be another one to join them regardless of the fact that he transfused his own blood twice during the 2009 Tour. But 3rd is pretty good...I guess...

 

[Anonymous]

But this thread is about Basso and how his obvious dope-a-thon has to have ended considering that he cannot even beat Cadel Evans...