Doping In Athletics

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re:

Honest question, how effective can doping be in the triple jump? Can only think of drugs to build muscle, and even so these athletes are not particularly bulky. Great final.

@Cat: men.

I guess doping has not the greatest impact there, because its highly technical. The long jumpers (especially if looking at the bad numbers they put up nowadays), and triple jumpers are the least suspect.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re:

Ha. I see the Eurosport expert analysts are Mo Greene and Asapha Powell. Can't make this up.

Well at least only one of them actually tested positive.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

The biggest benefit of doping, for any sport, is recovery, allowing you to train harder for longer. This applies to cycling, 100m sprinting, jumping, anything where you have to move your body.

EPO, HgH and steroids all assist in this endeavour.

And allowing you to stay injury free, or, if you are already injured, recover faster.

I will never doubt Bolts doctor again.

Bolt doesn't seem to be sharing with his mate and training partner The Beast though. 3 straight years out injured after being the Bolt of the none Bolts.

A silent ban lol?

 

[Bronstein]

Re:

He's very tall and has longer legs of course he runs quicker.

No, it's all about the knees.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2885738/Usain-Bolt-Jamaican-sprinters-secret-success-track-symmetrical-knees.html

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Ha. I see the Eurosport expert analysts are Mo Greene and Asapha Powell. Can't make this up.

Well at least only one of them actually tested positive.

Yep. The other just took the drugs before WADA knew about them/ had tests for them.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Re: Re:

So doper Campell-Brown steps into another lane and runs from there until the finish line (thus breaking rules in most blatant way), and still is allowed to run the semis and qualifies for the final? The rules dont count for the rule breakers?

Omg, Benotti & Co cycling is the worst WWF kind of... what is IAAF then? No, IAAF is the worst out there, cycling is heaven in comparison...

Had she stepped into the lane inside of her one, then yes instant DQ. (though depending upon severity if you just clip the line especially in the straight you may get reinstated upon appeal).

Because it was the lane outside of hers, the rules state to DQ only if there is impedance of the runner in that lane, which as there was a clear gap is certainly arguably true.

So iow if you break the rules big enough, you stay in the game. If you just touch the other lane, you get DQed.

No normal human with common sense understands that. Not a single one.

Thus, IAAF: Biggest farce on (sports) earth.

The Witz-Bolt peaking at the right time, after running 10.2s and 20.1s during the season, he doped himself up to the point, while Gatlin at least showed consistency over the last two seasons.

As said before: The chance Bolt dopes is 100%, while Gatlins is any percentage below exact 100.0% (even though if it means 99.99%).

The rule is incredibly simple. Step inside your lane and you get kicked out, step outside your lane and you don't (as long as you don't interefere with the athlete in that lane).

 

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

So doper Campell-Brown steps into another lane and runs from there until the finish line (thus breaking rules in most blatant way), and still is allowed to run the semis and qualifies for the final? The rules dont count for the rule breakers?

Omg, Benotti & Co cycling is the worst WWF kind of... what is IAAF then? No, IAAF is the worst out there, cycling is heaven in comparison...

Had she stepped into the lane inside of her one, then yes instant DQ. (though depending upon severity if you just clip the line especially in the straight you may get reinstated upon appeal).

Because it was the lane outside of hers, the rules state to DQ only if there is impedance of the runner in that lane, which as there was a clear gap is certainly arguably true.

So iow if you break the rules big enough, you stay in the game. If you just touch the other lane, you get DQed.

No normal human with common sense understands that. Not a single one.

Thus, IAAF: Biggest farce on (sports) earth.

The Witz-Bolt peaking at the right time, after running 10.2s and 20.1s during the season, he doped himself up to the point, while Gatlin at least showed consistency over the last two seasons.

As said before: The chance Bolt dopes is 100%, while Gatlins is any percentage below exact 100.0% (even though if it means 99.99%).

The rule is incredibly simple. Step inside your lane and you get kicked out, step outside your lane and you don't (as long as you don't interefere with the athlete in that lane).

would you still get penalised going inside your lane on the straight, where there is no advantage?

and no, the chance that bolt is cheating is not 100% as stated upthread, that is of course, complete and utter nonsense.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re: Re:

Ha. I see the Eurosport expert analysts are Mo Greene and Asapha Powell. Can't make this up.

Well at least only one of them actually tested positive.

Yep. The other just took the drugs before WADA knew about them/ had tests for them.

*nods*

Lance and Floyd to replace Phil and Paul in cycling commentary you think ?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Re: Re:

So doper Campell-Brown steps into another lane and runs from there until the finish line (thus breaking rules in most blatant way), and still is allowed to run the semis and qualifies for the final? The rules dont count for the rule breakers?

Omg, Benotti & Co cycling is the worst WWF kind of... what is IAAF then? No, IAAF is the worst out there, cycling is heaven in comparison...

Had she stepped into the lane inside of her one, then yes instant DQ. (though depending upon severity if you just clip the line especially in the straight you may get reinstated upon appeal).

Because it was the lane outside of hers, the rules state to DQ only if there is impedance of the runner in that lane, which as there was a clear gap is certainly arguably true.

So iow if you break the rules big enough, you stay in the game. If you just touch the other lane, you get DQed.

No normal human with common sense understands that. Not a single one.

Thus, IAAF: Biggest farce on (sports) earth.

The Witz-Bolt peaking at the right time, after running 10.2s and 20.1s during the season, he doped himself up to the point, while Gatlin at least showed consistency over the last two seasons.

As said before: The chance Bolt dopes is 100%, while Gatlins is any percentage below exact 100.0% (even though if it means 99.99%).

The rule is incredibly simple. Step inside your lane and you get kicked out, step outside your lane and you don't (as long as you don't interefere with the athlete in that lane).

would you still get penalised going inside your lane on the straight, where there is no advantage?

and no, the chance that bolt is cheating is not 100% as stated upthread, that is of course, complete and utter nonsense.

No, you do not get penalised for running out of your lane on the straights. The rule is open to abuse though, there is a world of difference between stepping on the line and running 80m in the wrong lane. There's also the possibility that you could do what Campbell Brown did if you had a teammate on your outside and they could get the benefit of drafting you. Personally I think she should have been kicked out but the rules at the moment do not allow for that.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

So doper Campell-Brown steps into another lane and runs from there until the finish line (thus breaking rules in most blatant way), and still is allowed to run the semis and qualifies for the final? The rules dont count for the rule breakers?

Omg, Benotti & Co cycling is the worst WWF kind of... what is IAAF then? No, IAAF is the worst out there, cycling is heaven in comparison...

Had she stepped into the lane inside of her one, then yes instant DQ. (though depending upon severity if you just clip the line especially in the straight you may get reinstated upon appeal).

Because it was the lane outside of hers, the rules state to DQ only if there is impedance of the runner in that lane, which as there was a clear gap is certainly arguably true.

So iow if you break the rules big enough, you stay in the game. If you just touch the other lane, you get DQed.

No normal human with common sense understands that. Not a single one.

Thus, IAAF: Biggest farce on (sports) earth.

The Witz-Bolt peaking at the right time, after running 10.2s and 20.1s during the season, he doped himself up to the point, while Gatlin at least showed consistency over the last two seasons.

As said before: The chance Bolt dopes is 100%, while Gatlins is any percentage below exact 100.0% (even though if it means 99.99%).

The rule is incredibly simple. Step inside your lane and you get kicked out, step outside your lane and you don't (as long as you don't interefere with the athlete in that lane).

would you still get penalised going inside your lane on the straight, where there is no advantage?

and no, the chance that bolt is cheating is not 100% as stated upthread, that is of course, complete and utter nonsense.

No, of course its not complete and utter nonsense, simply because the chance Bolt is doping is exactly 100.0%...

Runners got DQed in 100m when barely touching the lane. Even back in the 80s.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The rule is incredibly simple.

... and incredibly dumb. Unfair anyway.

 

[The Hitch]

I think the chance Bolt is doping is over 99%. Others can disagree and have their own figures.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

For peace sake I give the chance of Bolt doping at 99.999736% (even though I am sure its 100%)

 

[Catwhoorg]

I'll just say my standard for him doping is simply 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

 

[ray j willings]

Doped or not , Bolt is something else. A champion ,smashing records since he was a youngster. he does have phenomenal talent.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

but do we not have three from this athlete...which gives us 1 in every 1000000000...????

G, you are assuming independent variables. which others alluded to.

the devil's advocate, as others stated, if it is a dependent variable, and one may diagnose this dependent variable, lets for instance suggest it is reasoned bilharzia, the actually chance may be less than 1000. it may be faaar less than 1000.

so, it is not 1000^3 (that should be a superscript number, 1000 to the power of 3. ^<superscript>three)

so it aint 1000 x 1000 x 1000 (necessarily). It may be 1000 to the power of three like G implies.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Haven't been able to comment on the championships so far, but it's been awesome.

Some story lines that have been missed on this thread:

--Russia only has one medal. This after usually 15+ medals in the major championships. (More discussion could be had over Kenya medal count, of course.)

--800m Bronze Medalist Amel Tuka progression:
2015 1:42.51 Monaco (Stade Louis II) 17 JUL
2014 1:46.12 Zürich (Letzigrund) 15 AUG
2013 1:46.29 Tampere 12 JUL
2012 1:48.31 Helsinki 27 JUN

-Most competitive 400m race of all-time. Doper Lashawn Merrit sets new PR, still gets blown away.

-20-year-old Winner in the Marathon ***

-- And holy *** Dibaba. A 200m runner can expect to run faster than double their 100m time (sometimes) because of the relative time taken by the reaction/acceleration, but a 1500m runner closing faster than the world leading 800m time? 1:56.9!!!! Her WR earlier this year was the same discourse as the Bolt/Gatlin resuce, that she brought legitimacy to the 1500m record by taking it from Ma's army/Wang Junxia.

Here's her coach's stable:
Hamza Driouch - Busted on ABP
Laila Traby -Busted for EPO
Makhloufi -
Ayanleh Souleiman
Genzebe Dibaba -
Abubaker Kaki -
among others




***(FWIW, I put age cheating in a different category than doping. Deserves a ban, but it can't be the same process as a positive test. It is always down to management. Jeremey Rae talking about a conversation at World Juniors:

The next thing Jama Aden said was that many of the Kenyans on this years team were far older than 19. He said he had spoken to the Kenyan manager who admitted that the guy that won the 1500 is 28 years old. He also said the top 3 in the 10000 were probably all too old, which is really unfortunate for Mohammed (Ahmed) who would have won without these overage cheaters. Hamza also said most of the Moroccans are doping, and both French athletes were from Morocco.

from http://jeremyrae.com/2015/02/24/meyo-recap-recent-doping-news/ . A good read in general. The last paragraph in italics exemplifies what I've talked about in other threads: naivete is very real, and gets overlooked as a path to doping. The author spends 4 paragraphs talking about his suspicions about a coach, and then goes right to his excitement for being invited to train with that same group in Europe. And I don't blame him. But that's another conversation...")

 

[More Strides than Rides]

And the Bolt discussion: We know that being big is not an advantage. We know that he doesn't train harder than anyone else or focus on "marginal gains" (or even basic gains at that). We know that his teammates have been busted. We know that his federation has not managed anti-doping effectively.

Some say he's always been a talent.

No. He was bred. He was farm-raised. Somebody was paying for him to travel to Dr. Muller-Wolfharht since he was 16. Someone saw the potential and since then managers, coaches, and sponsors have had their fingers in the pot since he was a kid.

The idea of Bolt as a pure, innocent, untainted junior athlete has to come to an end.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

And the Bolt discussion: We know that being big is not an advantage. We know that he doesn't train harder than anyone else or focus on "marginal gains" (or even basic gains at that). We know that his teammates have been busted. We know that his federation has not managed anti-doping effectively.

Some say he's always been a talent.

No. He was bred. He was farm-raised. Somebody was paying for him to travel to Dr. Muller-Wolfharht since he was 16. Someone saw the potential and since then managers, coaches, and sponsors have had their fingers in the pot since he was a kid.

The idea of Bolt as a pure, innocent, untainted junior athlete has to come to an end.

I have posted this theory before on this forum and another forum. this is a quote from my post on another forum, but my theory has been elucidated here previously. I could not be bothered typing it out.

the "sweet spot" theory. When he broke the WR in either Beijing Olympics or the next years World Champs, he was much lighter.

What is much lighter? It is relative. Much lighter may be only 3kg if you are a lean athlete, where every skerrick ounce of weight is visible or becomes material

what is he now? 196cm and 94 kg?

remember this as a physics equation. One needs to accelerate this extra weight out of the blocks, to terminal velocity. And especially getting the new weight, out of the blocks. So every ounce, every single ounce of extra weight, must be explosive functional weight, and can aid the speed endurance over the 10 seconds.

And when we are talking the thousandths of a second. This translates to TEN FREEKIN GRAMS of non-functional weight, having an influence. Get a physics person, to do the sums, and the amount of <physics> work, required to accelerate the weight up to terminal velocity. Once it gets to terminal velocity, think the only negative influence of the weight is then the CdA (aerodynamics), plus the friction (sole on ground). both neglible. BUT BUT BUT. still, we are talking the thousandths of a second, the ten-thousandths of a second. So, the immaterial, is material.

so he is about 87/88 kg in Beijing?

why do you "need" more muscle? only reason i could think of would be explosivity out of the blocks. But he was almost as fast as the fastest ever out of the blocks. And the only reason he was not as fast, was cos he had to unfurl levers of a 6'5" man. Can't unfurl them, hence, no fast tall man ever besides Carl Lewis.

Speed endurance? I think this would be negative economy.

So, I like my sweetspot theory.

And.... the difficulty managing it is, imagine trying to keep his weight at 88kg when you gotta eat to train and his nutrition and diet includes a gluttony of androgens. Cant keep your weight down.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re:

Haven't been able to comment on the championships so far, but it's been awesome.

Some story lines that have been missed on this thread:

--Russia only has one medal. This after usually 15+ medals in the major championships. (More discussion could be had over Kenya medal count, of course.)

--800m Bronze Medalist Amel Tuka progression:
2015 1:42.51 Monaco (Stade Louis II) 17 JUL
2014 1:46.12 Zürich (Letzigrund) 15 AUG
2013 1:46.29 Tampere 12 JUL
2012 1:48.31 Helsinki 27 JUN

-Most competitive 400m race of all-time. Doper Lashawn Merrit sets new PR, still gets blown away.

-20-year-old Winner in the Marathon ***

-- And holy **** Dibaba. A 200m runner can expect to run faster than double their 100m time (sometimes) because of the relative time taken by the reaction/acceleration, but a 1500m runner closing faster than the world leading 800m time? 1:56.9!!!! Her WR earlier this year was the same discourse as the Bolt/Gatlin resuce, that she brought legitimacy to the 1500m record by taking it from Ma's army/Wang Junxia.

Here's her coach's stable:
Hamza Driouch - Busted on ABP
Laila Traby -Busted for EPO
Makhloufi -
Ayanleh Souleiman
Genzebe Dibaba -
Abubaker Kaki -
among others




***(FWIW, I put age cheating in a different category than doping. Deserves a ban, but it can't be the same process as a positive test. It is always down to management. Jeremey Rae talking about a conversation at World Juniors:

The next thing Jama Aden said was that many of the Kenyans on this years team were far older than 19. He said he had spoken to the Kenyan manager who admitted that the guy that won the 1500 is 28 years old. He also said the top 3 in the 10000 were probably all too old, which is really unfortunate for Mohammed (Ahmed) who would have won without these overage cheaters. Hamza also said most of the Moroccans are doping, and both French athletes were from Morocco.

from http://jeremyrae.com/2015/02/24/meyo-recap-recent-doping-news/ . A good read in general. The last paragraph in italics exemplifies what I've talked about in other threads: naivete is very real, and gets overlooked as a path to doping. The author spends 4 paragraphs talking about his suspicions about a coach, and then goes right to his excitement for being invited to train with that same group in Europe. And I don't blame him. But that's another conversation...")

And the Bolt discussion: We know that being big is not an advantage. We know that he doesn't train harder than anyone else or focus on "marginal gains" (or even basic gains at that). We know that his teammates have been busted. We know that his federation has not managed anti-doping effectively.

Some say he's always been a talent.

No. He was bred. He was farm-raised. Somebody was paying for him to travel to Dr. Muller-Wolfharht since he was 16. Someone saw the potential and since then managers, coaches, and sponsors have had their fingers in the pot since he was a kid.

The idea of Bolt as a pure, innocent, untainted junior athlete has to come to an end.

Two of the best posts in recent years... yes years... in the whole forum.

 

[ray j willings]

"No. He was bred. He was farm-raised. Somebody was paying for him to travel to Dr. Muller-Wolfharht since he was 16. Someone saw the potential and since then managers, coaches, and sponsors have had their fingers in the pot since he was a kid"

There is nothing in the link that states Bolt was seeing the good Dr at a young age....

do you have something concrete? otherwise that's just a big assumption.
I'm not saying its a great connection for Bolt to have now [I'm willing to change my opinion] but what besides assumption do you have as proof he was doped as a youngster?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

There is nothing in the link that states Bolt was seeing the good Dr at a young age....

Did you read the link?

Here's another:
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7324261/germany-dr-hans-wilhelm-muller-wohlfahrta-great-healer-quack-hyperactive-syringe

Muller-Wohlfahrt says they were first introduced when Bolt's coach brought Bolt, then a quiet 16-year-old, to his Munich clinic. Over the years, the doctor says, he has become a fringe member of Bolt's support staff, his duties ranging from tending to Bolt's aches and pains, to analyzing his sprint mechanics during track workouts when he's in town, to crafting specific exercises aimed at helping him withstand the rigors of the sport.

"The first time he came nobody knew him, but his coach sent him here to ask me whether it was worth it to train him," says Muller-Wohlfahrt, who himself trained as a track athlete growing up in a small town in northern Germany, by the Baltic Sea. "He [the coach] was not sure whether he was able to train very, very hard. I said, 'If he does this and this exercises -- yes, then he can.' So he started to do exercises and then the success grew more and more. For example, yesterday he phoned and he does his exercises. We have a very good connection, very good correspondence."

...


And for the Lolz. I've never come across this before, but Ladies and Gentlemen, we have our Bilharzia:

Q: You've been diagnosed with scoliosis. How has that affected your training?
A: When I was younger it wasn't really a problem. But you grow and it gets worse. My spine's really curved bad [makes "S" shape with finger]. But if I keep my core and back strong, the scoliosis doesn't really bother me. So I don't have to worry about it as long as I work hard. The early part of my career, when we didn't really know much about it, it really hampered me because I got injured every year.

http://espn.go.com/olympics/story/_/id/7294360/olympics-usain-bolt-being-fastest-man-world-espn-magazine

The most talented and gifted man in track and field? Born with a curved spine.
Showed unbelievable talent from an early age? His coach was unsure about him until 16
An accomplished junior athlete, untainted and innocent? Only after being managed and coached by doping coach Glen Mills, and treated regularly by Dr. Muller-Wolfahrt since 16.

 

[armchairclimber]

"No. He was bred. He was farm-raised. Somebody was paying for him to travel to Dr. Muller-Wolfharht since he was 16. Someone saw the potential and since then managers, coaches, and sponsors have had their fingers in the pot since he was a kid"

There is nothing in the link that states Bolt was seeing the good Dr at a young age....

do you have something concrete? otherwise that's just a big assumption.
I'm not saying its a great connection for Bolt to have now [I'm willing to change my opinion] but what besides assumption do you have as proof he was doped as a youngster?

He was seeing him for his spinal curvature I think....not sure about 2004/5 though....thought it was later.

 

[yespatterns]

No segway jokes yet? Man, this thread is losing traction.

 

[heart_attack_man]

There is nothing in the link that states Bolt was seeing the good Dr at a young age....

Did you read the link?

Here's another:
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7324261/germany-dr-hans-wilhelm-muller-wohlfahrta-great-healer-quack-hyperactive-syringe

Muller-Wohlfahrt says they were first introduced when Bolt's coach brought Bolt, then a quiet 16-year-old, to his Munich clinic. Over the years, the doctor says, he has become a fringe member of Bolt's support staff, his duties ranging from tending to Bolt's aches and pains, to analyzing his sprint mechanics during track workouts when he's in town, to crafting specific exercises aimed at helping him withstand the rigors of the sport.

"The first time he came nobody knew him, but his coach sent him here to ask me whether it was worth it to train him," says Muller-Wohlfahrt, who himself trained as a track athlete growing up in a small town in northern Germany, by the Baltic Sea. "He [the coach] was not sure whether he was able to train very, very hard. I said, 'If he does this and this exercises -- yes, then he can.' So he started to do exercises and then the success grew more and more. For example, yesterday he phoned and he does his exercises. We have a very good connection, very good correspondence."

...


And for the Lolz. I've never come across this before, but Ladies and Gentlemen, we have our Bilharzia:

Q: You've been diagnosed with scoliosis. How has that affected your training?
A: When I was younger it wasn't really a problem. But you grow and it gets worse. My spine's really curved bad [makes "S" shape with finger]. But if I keep my core and back strong, the scoliosis doesn't really bother me. So I don't have to worry about it as long as I work hard. The early part of my career, when we didn't really know much about it, it really hampered me because I got injured every year.

http://espn.go.com/olympics/story/_/id/7294360/olympics-usain-bolt-being-fastest-man-world-espn-magazine

The most talented and gifted man in track and field? Born with a curved spine.
Showed unbelievable talent from an early age? His coach was unsure about him until 16
An accomplished junior athlete, untainted and innocent? Only after being managed and coached by doping coach Glen Mills, and treated regularly by Dr. Muller-Wolfahrt since 16.

QFT. Nicely done. Don't think there's as good a post pointing to the ridiculousness than this one. He's also got Angel 'Memo' Hernandez meeting with him at times too. This all adds up to be UB Confidentiel...