Doping In Athletics

[Bernie's eyesore]

Re: Re:

You also only have to look at her palmares to see that I am right and that the only major events she did in 2014 were sprint events, which is the year before this tweet.

While the winner remained at a constant ~15.4m throw, Schipper increased her shotput throw from the previous year by A METER. A fricken meter further.

Are you seriously telling me she focused on sprinting alone and threw a shotput a meter further in one year?

She and her coach have explained in the Dutch media that her sprint training consists of an adapted version of her heptathlon training. When I said 'focus on sprint,' I didn't mean that she would never shotput again, I meant that her entire training was focused on becoming a better sprinter. She may still get better at some of the heptathlon events, since she is still a young athlete, but probably less than if she would give it more focus. I don't see her getting an overall score during a heptathlon that is anywhere close to her WC performance in Moscow ever again.

The problem with your example is that we have no clue how much she peaked for either event. Depending on her season build-up, it's possible that she used one as pure training and was more serious for the other. There is no way to know, since this event is just a 'training event.' That's also why your timeline is incorrect, you cannot just treat a minor heptathlon event as if it was her major goal that season and use that as proof that she was focusing on heptathlon until then.

I don't have the expertise to judge whether you can achieve these kind of sprint results with the training she does, but I do know that some cyclists also do weight lifting and other non-cycling training and swear by it. So a diversified training regimen may be the best for her.

Now you are taking the piss, surely. She improved her shotput by 1m and you just accept face value that her coach and her explain it away as sprint training is modified heptathlon training.

That's a 7% improvement in throwing a heavy round ball by sprinting.

Funny how you change your claim from "the last time she did heptathlon was 2013" to "the only major events she did in 2014 were sprint events".

She did heptathlon until August 2013

No. Completely wrong. She did heptathlon until May 31 2015, with some consistent -- and stunning -- improvements in non-running events.

Clearly you are not going to apologise for calling me ignorant, but your posts look utterly stupid now.

You didn't apologise for getting it wrong about Schippers three month transformation when I pointed out to you that she ran faster than all of her rivals in 2014 so why would you expect somebody to apologise to you?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

[quote="

So you cant deny that Flo Jo bought HGH off Darrell Robinson, rather take a pop at me and then go onto accuse people of making stuff up.

Did Flo Jo sue Robinson?

It seems the hypocrites are the ones wasting bandwidth. But that is nothing new.

Just for you than. I know you always need some help.

Flo Jo has never been tested positive. Now we all know that means nothing.

Yet, because somebody (who was a friend of Ben Johnson's coach) said he sold steroids to her (which might be very true), does not hold water.[/quote]


Flo Jo never tested positive. Well that has me convinced. I mean Carl Lewis tested positive and they still let him run!

So a guy makes a statement about selling doping products and the lady ignores it, rather than calling him a liar or suing his a$$, but becuase he is a friend of Johnson's coach he has zero credibility? Dude you were giving Armstrong PR lessons back in the day or just using his tired old excuses..........

You know the guy running the IAAF is also paid by Nike. Now that is a sport you can truly believe in. I bet Seb Coe rides a unicorn at the opening ceremony in Rio.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

You didn't apologise for getting it wrong about Schippers three month transformation when I pointed out to you that she ran faster than all of her rivals in 2014 so why would you expect somebody to apologise to you?

All her rivals?

Please remind me how many of them were in a world championship final.

Oh. None.

Gotcha.

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

[quote="

So you cant deny that Flo Jo bought HGH off Darrell Robinson, rather take a pop at me and then go onto accuse people of making stuff up.

Did Flo Jo sue Robinson?

It seems the hypocrites are the ones wasting bandwidth. But that is nothing new.

Just for you than. I know you always need some help.

Flo Jo has never been tested positive. Now we all know that means nothing.

Yet, because somebody (who was a friend of Ben Johnson's coach) said he sold steroids to her (which might be very true), does not hold water.

Flo Jo never tested positive. Well that has me convinced. I mean Carl Lewis tested positive and they still let him run!

So a guy makes a statement about selling doping products and the lady ignores it, rather than calling him a liar or suing his a$$, but becuase he is a friend of Johnson's coach he has zero credibility? Dude you were giving Armstrong PR lessons back in the day or just using his tired old excuses..........

[/quote]A few posts ago I said people just dont read, now this is a perfect example again.

I say: ''Never been tested positive means nothing.''
Benotti counter: ''Flo Jo never tested positive. Well that has me convinced. I mean Carl Lewis tested positive and they still let him run! ''

We agree on the same exact thing but he still manages to start a discussion.

You just cant talk with these people.

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

You didn't apologise for getting it wrong about Schippers three month transformation when I pointed out to you that she ran faster than all of her rivals in 2014 so why would you expect somebody to apologise to you?

All her rivals?

Please remind me how many of them were in a world championship final.

Oh. None.

Gotcha.

She finished 9th at the World Championships in 2013 on the 200 mtr while she was actually specialised in the heptathlon.

You can say she improved a lot, but she didnt come out of nowhere.

 

[Cramps]

Re: Re:

So what is it? Working harder than everyone else? Human evolution? Crazy adaptive physiology?

Unless you're saying that she's the only one doping (and I know you're not), then doping still can't explain why she's winning in a field of dopers. What's her edge then? Dopes better than everyone else? Unique doping physiology? Works harder? Smarter training? Unique event physiology?

I figure nearly all these guys are barfing into their training buckets daily. So works harder, no -- probably everyone already maxed out. Smarter doping or special doping physiology -- possibly. Smarter training and/or event physiology (Schipper physique unusual to say the least) also possible.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

[quote="

So you cant deny that Flo Jo bought HGH off Darrell Robinson, rather take a pop at me and then go onto accuse people of making stuff up.

Did Flo Jo sue Robinson?

It seems the hypocrites are the ones wasting bandwidth. But that is nothing new.

Just for you than. I know you always need some help.

Flo Jo has never been tested positive. Now we all know that means nothing.

Yet, because somebody (who was a friend of Ben Johnson's coach) said he sold steroids to her (which might be very true), does not hold water.

Flo Jo never tested positive. Well that has me convinced. I mean Carl Lewis tested positive and they still let him run!

So a guy makes a statement about selling doping products and the lady ignores it, rather than calling him a liar or suing his a$$, but becuase he is a friend of Johnson's coach he has zero credibility? Dude you were giving Armstrong PR lessons back in the day or just using his tired old excuses..........

[/quote]A few posts ago I said people just dont read, now this is a perfect example again.

I say: ''Never been tested positive means nothing.''
Benotti counter: ''Flo Jo never tested positive. Well that has me convinced. I mean Carl Lewis tested positive and they still let him run! ''

We agree on the same exact thing but he still manages to start a discussion.

You just cant talk with these people.[/quote]

Why mention 'never tested positive' in the first place as 'never testing positive' means nothing, yet you mentioned it?

You ignored the Darrell Robinson admission and you want to 'talk'. A woman's world records remain unbroken from 1988 when the USA team knew Lewis and others were doping and you want to have argue that Flo Jo was clean.

Puhleeease.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

So what is it? Working harder than everyone else? Human evolution? Crazy adaptive physiology?

Unless you're saying that she's the only one doping (and I know you're not), then doping still can't explain why she's winning in a field of dopers. What's her edge then? Dopes better than everyone else? Unique doping physiology? Works harder? Smarter training? Unique event physiology?

I figure nearly all these guys are barfing into their training buckets daily. So works harder, no -- probably everyone already maxed out. Smarter doping or special doping physiology -- possibly. Smarter training and/or event physiology (Schipper physique unusual to say the least) also possible.

Anyone arguing better training can beat doping is worth selling pyramids schemes too.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

You didn't apologise for getting it wrong about Schippers three month transformation when I pointed out to you that she ran faster than all of her rivals in 2014 so why would you expect somebody to apologise to you?

All her rivals?

Please remind me how many of them were in a world championship final.

Oh. None.

Gotcha.

She finished 9th at the World Championships in 2013 on the 200 mtr while she was actually specialised in the heptathlon.

You can say she improved a lot, but she didnt come out of nowhere.[/quote]

It's Aajep's opinion she was focusing on the sprint for the next 2 years. If that were true:
1. I would accept her improvement was almost believable
2. I would not expect massive shotput improvement
3. I would have expected her to compete in 2014 WCs

As it stands, she was still doing heptathlon training and competition until May 31 2015.

From 1 WC to the next she went 9th to 1st, setting the third fastest time ever. Yes there was a 2 year gap, but the decision to focus on sprint happened June 6th, 2015, according to her own words.

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

Why mention 'never tested positive' in the first place as 'never testing positive' means nothing, yet you mentioned it?

You ignored the Darrell Robinson admission and you want to 'talk'. A woman's world records remain unbroken from 1988 when the USA team knew Lewis and others were doping and you want to have argue that Flo Jo was clean.

Puhleeease.

Just when I thought I had read it all, from him.

Facepalm worthy.

 

[armchairclimber]

I hope none of you are listening in to the Beeb pundits at the moment
I think even I might barf.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

I hope none of you are listening in to the Beeb pundits at the moment
I think even I might barf.

And it's still going on...

 

[armchairclimber]

Re: Re:

I hope none of you are listening in to the Beeb pundits at the moment
I think even I might barf.

And it's still going on...

Here's an antidote... proper clean sport with real heroes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqAukNnT_M8

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I have changed my mind about Bolt and not one of you has had the courtesy to go na na na na na we told you or at least make some kind of smug comment about how wrong I was.

I'm upset.

Wow! You don't hear this kind of admission too much on this forum. What finally changed your mind?

My only reason for giving Bolt the benefit of the doubt was the fact he was smashing records as a youngster and no evidence that he was doping as a youngster.

Then I saw the link a few pages back that showed Bolt has a connection with a dodgy Dr when he was a youngster.

So my reason for doubt [ bolt being clean] has been washed away. Shame. He was about the only top athlete I thought could have been clean.

Nice to see at least one person from the "Bolt is clean"-club changed from naive to self thinking, connecting dots, and thus said good-bye to the BS story that smells like the former LA one.

What I dont get is that you didnt see it earlier:
How could he be one of the fastest starters, and then never slow down, given the story-tellers say his body-length is the reason he is a slow starter. That contradiction kills the story in a hurry...
How could he run 0.3 secs faster (in 100m) than caught dopers, who themselves are talented high trained top end athlets at the very right end of a bell-curve...
How can he have such stark performance jumps in half a year (2008) which were seldom seen before (FloJo comes to mind) by full grown athlets...

Anyway, if it was the Dr Frankenstein link... good. The result is what matters. Many ways lead to Rome.

 

[Defiets]

Banning the tainted doctors and trainers (e.g. Salazar) from the sport would be a good start.

 

[Lyon]

Re:

Guess three times where the former GDR coaches and athletes are working currently... It ain't in Holland.

Because Holland already have Henk K.

 

[The Hitch]

Damn. Every single championship after championship after championship the USA can't finish.

 

[Defiets]

Re: Re:

Guess three times where the former GDR coaches and athletes are working currently... It ain't in Holland.

Because Holland already have Henk K.

And then being so poor in depth? Oh well. What's the Oregon of Holland?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

So... USA DQed coz of stepping inches over the change line.
But cheaters Campbell-Brown (running a different line ... later going on to win bronze) and JAM 4x100 men (in round 1, stepping into the line of NL) does not.
WWE, Benotti? Not close. WWE is true fair competition in comparison. Dont smear the name of WWE anymore, use IAAF instead.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Re:

Schippers had her biggest career progression in 2014, when she shaved off 2.9% of her 200m time. For the 100m it is 2015 with a 1.9% improvement.
Elaine Thompson meanwhile gained almost 7%, and Fraser-Pryce improved 4.7% in the year 2008.

Jamaican athletes aren't pampered by their governments/federations, though. Most of them are at a disadvantage early on in their careers. They get no handouts, nothing. I'd expect much bigger gains once they have the means to hire the best doping docs and trainers.

Schippers has probably been on a closely monitored elite doping program for years. That would explain the more normal rate of progression. Her freakish performances in Beijing certainly seem to suggest that she's doped to the eyeballs.

 

[Ricco']

Re:

So... USA DQed coz of stepping inches over the change line.
But cheaters Campbell-Brown (running a different line ... later going on to win bronze) and JAM 4x100 men (in round 1, stepping into the line of NL) does not.
WWE, Benotti? Not close. WWE is true fair competition in comparison. Dont smear the name of WWE anymore, use IAAF instead.

How many times one must say that in the rules there are very well explicit that you can step into the OUTSIDE line of your track without compromising the other runner?

 

[oldcrank]

Re:

The Hypo-meeting heptathlon finished 31st of May. Her tweet was on the 6th of June.

That is when she decided to focus on the sprint. Not before. I am 100% confident of that now.

Any javelin, shotput or other muscle that is throwing or jumping specific is now slowing her sprint down, correct?

Without entering into a doping debate, but as one coach
to another, I would be hard pressed to identify exactly
which muscles are throwing or jumping specific.

Many, many sprinters from Fanny Blankers-Koen to Carl
Lewis and Bruny Surin were also very good jumpers. As
for throwing muscles, the bench press, for example is
very important in developing the requisite strength for
the all important 'set' position in the starting blocks.

There is a very old saying in athletics 'You run with the
arms, on the legs' and perhaps you remember back in
infancy of modern professional athletics post 1968 in
American indoor meets there was a few male shot
athletes vs female sprinters races over 40-50 yards,
and the shot putters invariably won.

Of course, there is a level of development of certain
or specific muscles which could eventually prove
detrimental to sprinting, but as the heptathlon
includes both the 100m hurdles and the 200m sprint,
very few succesful female multi-eventers go there.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

The Hypo-meeting heptathlon finished 31st of May. Her tweet was on the 6th of June.

That is when she decided to focus on the sprint. Not before. I am 100% confident of that now.

Any javelin, shotput or other muscle that is throwing or jumping specific is now slowing her sprint down, correct?

Without entering into a doping debate, but as one coach
to another, I would be hard pressed to identify exactly
which muscles are throwing or jumping specific.

Many, many sprinters from Fanny Blankers-Koen to Carl
Lewis and Bruny Surin were also very good jumpers. As
for throwing muscles, the bench press, for example is
very important in developing the requisite strength for
the all important 'set' position in the starting blocks.

There is a very old saying in athletics 'You run with the
arms, on the legs' and perhaps you remember back in
infancy of modern professional athletics post 1968 in
American indoor meets there was a few male shot
athletes vs female sprinters races over 40-50 yards,
and the shot putters invariably won.

Of course, there is a level of development of certain
or specific muscles which could eventually prove
detrimental to sprinting, but as the heptathlon
includes both the 100m hurdles and the 200m sprint,
very few succesful female multi-eventers go there.

I guess my point is: to be world champion, you would not be throwing javelins or shot around. It would increase the risk of injury (elbows / shoulders) for starters. The mantra I have read and prefer -- at the elite level, not the masters level I now inhabit -- is: specificity matters.

For sure you use your arms, but I would hazard a guess not above shoulder height during the dynamic portion. It's academic regardless. She definitely competed in a heptathlon and definitely improved the shotput out of sight.

 

[armchairclimber]

Re: Re:

The Hypo-meeting heptathlon finished 31st of May. Her tweet was on the 6th of June.

That is when she decided to focus on the sprint. Not before. I am 100% confident of that now.

Any javelin, shotput or other muscle that is throwing or jumping specific is now slowing her sprint down, correct?

Without entering into a doping debate, but as one coach
to another, I would be hard pressed to identify exactly
which muscles are throwing or jumping specific.

Many, many sprinters from Fanny Blankers-Koen to Carl
Lewis and Bruny Surin were also very good jumpers. As
for throwing muscles, the bench press, for example is
very important in developing the requisite strength for
the all important 'set' position in the starting blocks.

There is a very old saying in athletics 'You run with the
arms, on the legs' and perhaps you remember back in
infancy of modern professional athletics post 1968 in
American indoor meets there was a few male shot
athletes vs female sprinters races over 40-50 yards,
and the shot putters invariably won.

Of course, there is a level of development of certain
or specific muscles which could eventually prove
detrimental to sprinting, but as the heptathlon
includes both the 100m hurdles and the 200m sprint,
very few succesful female multi-eventers go there.

Good post.

Dear Wiggo, I wouldn't hold too tightly onto that tweet. As far as I am aware she shifted the focus of her preparation towards sprinting well over a year ago without closing the door on the heptathlon. It wouldn't be an enormous surprise to see sprint focused training bringing additional benefits to events like the shot.

No idea whether or not she is doping. She certainly has an impressive androgynous physique...one that most athletic blokes would kill for.

At junior meets where the form of athletes is unknown, it's often fun to take a stab at who the winner of an event will be simply by looking at the athletes as they line up. She would easily be the pick from that field. It doesn't always work out though, and it's just fun. Asher Smith is very quick for someone to slight.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

So... USA DQed coz of stepping inches over the change line.
But cheaters Campbell-Brown (running a different line ... later going on to win bronze) and JAM 4x100 men (in round 1, stepping into the line of NL) does not.
WWE, Benotti? Not close. WWE is true fair competition in comparison. Dont smear the name of WWE anymore, use IAAF instead.

How many times one must say that in the rules there are very well explicit that you can step into the OUTSIDE line of your track without compromising the other runner?

And how many times must I say that stepping into the lane of others lead to DQs?
(Self censored) if you have nothing to contribute. No one, no one linked any rule or posted it that it is allowed to do such. Its especially suspicious since JAM also didnt got DQed in their 4x100 heat.