Doping In Athletics

Page 34 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Feb 25, 2014
39
0
0
Re: Re:

18-Valve. (pithy) said:
Defiets said:
Do you have a source for that figure? Only the so called A-sporters receive a stipend, about 450 sporters among both sexes across all available sports. Even so, it doesn't account for the more balanced progression in performances over the course of six years. With the limited resources available before a certain point, one would expect a sudden uptake at some year. The government claims an olympic medal costs 4.4 million in public and private expenses.



The source is a Volkskrant article from last year.

But that isn't only paid by the taxpayer, which you claimed.

None of the Jamaicans receive a government salary.
They can get some stipend, just as most of the Europeans. In the Netherlands that stipend becomes cancelled once they earn more than 125% of the gross minimum wage. Source is an 'NRC career' article titled 'from only sport you can't earn a living' (2012).

You choose to ignore those super human performances for some reason.

What I choose to ignore are accusation that are based on time alone. It isn't based on the reputation of the country, the doctors, or drinking a glass of beer with Seb Coe.

I also ignore the idea that Jamaica hasn't an elite programme, which cost the government more than 610 million across all levels at a population of 2.7 million.
 
Feb 25, 2014
39
0
0
Re: Re:

Aapjes said:
18-Valve. (pithy) said:
So Jamaica puts all their effort in short distance running. Most kids choose it as their sport, runners face a lot of high level competition within their country, can relatively easily find experienced coaches, etc, etc. Dutch talents have to find their own way much more, which is a big disadvantage.
They had to flip every penny for hiring an American trainer who just got offloaded by UK Athletics, and he has taken a handful American dudes to Papendal too as part of the deal. Triple jumper Christian Taylor is one of his pupils.
 
May 28, 2012
2,779
0
0
Are those 610 million dollars Jamaican, or US? If they're Jamaican it would equal 4.6 million € or 5.2 million US $.
 

Singer01

BANNED
Nov 18, 2013
2,043
2
5,485
Holy ***. The winner in the 5k just broke her 3k best for the last 3k. Dibaba smashed into tiny pieces.
 
Jun 14, 2010
34,930
60
22,580
Thank god the Kenyans beat that doper Makhloufi. Even though Makhloufi has never failed a test or been implicated, we know he dopes because he runs very fast (though not as fast as Farah who isn't even a 1500m specialist). Kiprob joins Bolt on saviour of the sport status.
 
Jun 15, 2009
8,529
1
0
Nice catwalk for the 4x400 race... after practising in the 1st rounds, now it works. I´d say Hastings (USA) won the comp...

Edit: So, so, nowadays a monster race by Felix isnt enough anymore. Once again the 3 million nation beats the biggest talent pool with the best infrastructure in sports (USA, 300+ mio population). :rolleyes: Omg!
 
Jun 14, 2010
34,930
60
22,580
lol jamaica win 4x 400 women. Amazing how absolutely everyone representing that tiny island since 2008 is a once in a generation talent.
 
Jun 15, 2009
8,529
1
0
Re:

The Hitch said:
lol jamaica win 4x 400 women. Amazing how absolutely everyone representing that tiny island since 2008 is a once in a generation talent.

I think its a "god thing". He blessed that country lately. ;)
And if thats not enough, we just bent the rules so that no JAM doper gets DQed for running or touching the wrong lanes.

As it stands now: (G/S/B/total medals)
1 Kenya KENYA 7 6 3 16
2 Jamaica JAMAICA 7 2 3 12
3 United States UNITED STATES 5 6 6 17
 
Jun 15, 2009
8,529
1
0
Nice HR by the 4x400 guys at the presentation. If USA dont win this now (did they ever lose a Olympic or WC race?), then I dont know...
 
Jun 25, 2009
3,234
2
13,485
Re:

FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Nice HR by the 4x400 guys at the presentation. If USA dont win this now (did they ever lose a Olympic or WC race?), then I dont know...

Tokyo World Championships 1991
 
Sep 14, 2011
1,980
0
0
Singer01 said:
Holy ****. The winner in the 5k just broke her 3k best for the last 3k. Dibaba smashed into tiny pieces.

That last 3km is right up there with the most ridiculous performances in the history of the sport. I am surprised nobody else has commented on it.
 
Re:

FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Nice catwalk for the 4x400 race... after practising in the 1st rounds, now it works. I´d say Hastings (USA) won the comp...

Edit: So, so, nowadays a monster race by Felix isnt enough anymore. Once again the 3 million nation beats the biggest talent pool with the best infrastructure in sports (USA, 300+ mio population). :rolleyes: Omg!
That's not at all surprising to me considering that all the really fast athletes in the USA play other sports, such as football, basketball, baseball, ect.. The money in pro football has lured away ALL the athletes that could be developed into great track and field athletes. What's left are the ones that can't make it in pro sports in America (Gatlin, ect..). Jamaica isn't competing against the best the US has to offer, not by a longshot.
 
Jul 16, 2011
3,251
812
15,680
Re: Re:

irondan said:
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Nice catwalk for the 4x400 race... after practising in the 1st rounds, now it works. I´d say Hastings (USA) won the comp...

Edit: So, so, nowadays a monster race by Felix isnt enough anymore. Once again the 3 million nation beats the biggest talent pool with the best infrastructure in sports (USA, 300+ mio population). :rolleyes: Omg!
That's not at all surprising to me considering that all the really fast athletes in the USA play other sports, such as football, basketball, baseball, ect.. The money in pro football has lured away ALL the athletes that could be developed into great track and field athletes. What's left are the ones that can't make it in pro sports in America (Gatlin, ect..). Jamaica isn't competing against the best the US has to offer, not by a longshot.

Good post. Things are rarely as simple as they might appear. Track and Field is a minority sport in the USA but, especially in the last 10 years, a really big deal in Jamaica.
 
Feb 25, 2014
39
0
0
Re: Re:

irondan said:
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Nice catwalk for the 4x400 race... after practising in the 1st rounds, now it works. I´d say Hastings (USA) won the comp...

Edit: So, so, nowadays a monster race by Felix isnt enough anymore. Once again the 3 million nation beats the biggest talent pool with the best infrastructure in sports (USA, 300+ mio population). :rolleyes: Omg!
That's not at all surprising to me considering that all the really fast athletes in the USA play other sports, such as football, basketball, baseball, ect.. The money in pro football has lured away ALL the athletes that could be developed into great track and field athletes. What's left are the ones that can't make it in pro sports in America (Gatlin, ect..). Jamaica isn't competing against the best the US has to offer, not by a longshot.

That is very true although a 40 yard dash for the NFL draft (36,58m) and 100 meters are not interchangeable distances. The same can be seen in soccer and many other ball sports where the stand outs at 100 meters are different as the players who are perceived as 'quick'. 100 metres is often too long for the most explosive athletes.

A 2010 Daily Telegraph story about rejecting opportunities abroad.

"
Fanty is in no doubt that it is the current crop of Jamaican champions that has spurred her on to become a professional athlete. 'I want to be better than them,' she says (the familiar refrain). 'When Jamaican athletes are doing so well, everybody wants to be like them. Usain Bolt is training Jamaica. His presence is an inspiration.'
Fanty's father is unemployed; her mother is a farmer. She appears not to have thought too deeply about what she might do if pro status does not materialise. 'Teaching?' she suggests. What subject? 'Social studies? I'm not sure. I've got my heart set on athletics.'
Historically, the majority of successful Jamaican athletes have come through the US college system, but things have changed dramatically in the past few years. Bolt's iconic status has been cemented by his decision to remain based on the island, despite being offered several American scholarships. Many in Jamaica say that its facilities, as a result of large-scale investment from the government and local businesses, are as good as any in the world (though this has sparked a debate over whether such a poor country can afford to spend so much on sport when education and health care are so basic).
[...]
Bolt lives on a hill overlooking the national stadium; his great rival Asafa Powell, the former 100m record holder, lives next door. They are the stars of the country's two main rival athletics clubs, Racers Track Club and MVP (Maximising Velocity and Power). The latter was set up in 2001 by a local coach, Stephen Francis, who felt that Jamaican athletes were becoming too Americanised as a result of the scholarship programme, and unwilling to return home (many Jamaican-born athletes
have ended up taking American or Canadian citizenship and representing their adopted countries
). There are now about a dozen well-run track clubs in Jamaica. Some young athletes have signed sponsor­ship deals while still at school.
Natoya Goule, 18, another Holmwood athlete and the winner by a huge margin of the 3,000m in her age group – her 13th Champs gold – already has a deal with Adidas. She explains that she has been offered 'a lot' of sports scholarships, but hasn't made up her mind whether to take one, or which one to choose. 'I just train hard, listen to my coach and put my mind to the race,' she says.
Ray Stewart, an Olympic silver medallist at the 1984 Games, says that Jamaica's training infrastructure is considerably more sophisticated than in his day. Now a sports adviser to Texas Christian University, which gave him a scholarship, he concedes that there is more to keep an athlete in Jamaica than when he left in the 1980s. 'Back then most of us were just thinking about getting the hell out of here,' he says. 'We wanted more than just running, we wanted a life that was a lot better overseas than it was here.'
Stewart believes that because Bolt decided to stay at home, other gifted Jamaican athletes are turning their backs on American scholarships. 'Bolt and Powell's success has encouraged a lot of young Jamaicans to think they can be professionals when they just don't all have what it takes,' he says. 'The Jamaican clubs seem to be encouraging people to stay at home and give up on their education.'
"
 
Oct 16, 2012
10,364
179
22,680
Bernie's eyesore said:
Singer01 said:
Holy ****. The winner in the 5k just broke her 3k best for the last 3k. Dibaba smashed into tiny pieces.

That last 3km is right up there with the most ridiculous performances in the history of the sport. I am surprised nobody else has commented on it.

What do you think of Felix's 400m split (47.7), what do you add on for a standing start half a second?
 
Aug 30, 2015
6
0
8,530
Hello, first post here. I was reading this thread (and some others) and it seems to be very hard to admit that athletes from our own country are doping (which is understandable, of course).

So, as a frenchie, I would like to ask the clinic what they think about a number of "french feel good stories". I'll do it chronologically:
1) Marie-José Pérec was clean when she became olympic champ in Barcelona (not in Atlanta when she was trained by evil foreigner coach John Smith).
2) Christine Arron was clean when she beat the 100 m european world record in 1998.
3) Muriel Hurtis was clean when she won the bronze medal in the 200 m at the WC of 2003.
4) Christophe Lemaitre was clean when he ran under 10 s the 100 m.

I've got my opinion but I'd be happy to read yours.
 
Jun 15, 2009
8,529
1
0
Re: Re:

irondan said:
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Nice catwalk for the 4x400 race... after practising in the 1st rounds, now it works. I´d say Hastings (USA) won the comp...

Edit: So, so, nowadays a monster race by Felix isnt enough anymore. Once again the 3 million nation beats the biggest talent pool with the best infrastructure in sports (USA, 300+ mio population). :rolleyes: Omg!
That's not at all surprising to me considering that all the really fast athletes in the USA play other sports, such as football, basketball, baseball, ect.. The money in pro football has lured away ALL the athletes that could be developed into great track and field athletes. What's left are the ones that can't make it in pro sports in America (Gatlin, ect..). Jamaica isn't competing against the best the US has to offer, not by a longshot.

Remember, of those talented speedsters only a few make it in the NFL (so lets cut the talent pool from 300+ million to 300 million, with the same perfect infrastructure)... In the old(er) times you had Jim Hines, Ron Brown, Sam Graddy, Renaldo Nehemiah, Willie Gault, John Capel, to name a few that just come to mind... all Footballers who were world class olympic sprinters too. Where are they now?
 
Apr 20, 2009
382
2
9,285
The Frog said:
So, as a frenchie, I would like to ask the clinic what they think about a number of "french feel good stories". I'll do it chronologically:
[...]
I've got my opinion but I'd be happy to read yours.

In general, everyone competing in athletics at the highest level is suspect. Some things increase the suspicion:
- Very good results
- From a country that has a doping program and/or many popped athletes
- Association with doping doctors, etc

Yet an athlete who has none of these attributes can be doping too. So...
 
Jun 15, 2009
8,529
1
0
Re:

Billie said:
Lols athletics has reached the point were the Russians are cleanest :D

Imagine... unthinkable just 2 years ago.
If not for the technical/high skilled events, Russia goes home with... ZERO medals.
Watta joke T&F has become. And I thought when Jeter hit the scence age 30 or so, we reached a low point.
 
Sep 29, 2012
12,197
0
0
The commentating jubilation re: Bolt was raised earlier and a few posters said, "meh I don't see anything wrong".

Kimmage sums it up well here, I believe:

Cue footage from the BBC Radio 5 Live commentary box of an ecstatic Allison Curbishley jumping up and down with Darren Campbell. And then there was Brendan Foster's soft-shoe shuffle in a video posted by Paula Radcliffe on her Twitter feed: 'This is what it means to Bren.'

And finally Cram again, who responded to Nehemiah and the criticism of their abject lack of professionalism, by insisting it was justified.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/paul-kimmage-bbcs-former-athletes-show-admirable-talent-for-backpedalling-31487856.html

The rest of the article asks the elephantine question, "What if Gatlin was British" and the obvious answer is the Linford Christie episode.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
The BBC hyprocrisy is stunning, simply stunning..........but as Kimmage's article points out, too many of these ex athletes from the same sports are feeding at the same trough that they are commentating on. Coe does not see any conflict of interest in working for Nike while IAAF president. Greed, pure greed.
 
Mar 15, 2011
2,760
71
11,580
Re: Re:

armchairclimber said:
Good post. Things are rarely as simple as they might appear. Track and Field is a minority sport in the USA but, especially in the last 10 years, a really big deal in Jamaica.

It is a minority sport, but not in many ways that matter. The absolute numbers are also more important that relative numbers, if we're then taking them to compare to other nations.

1,085,000 high school kids played football.
1,057,000 high school kids did outdoor TnF last year. (boys and girls)

In the NCAA
48,000 (27,000 women and 20,000 men) did collegiate TnF
71,000 men did football.
18,000 men played basketball, and 16,000 women

Among Division I, where the elite athletes feed from
4,900 women played basketball, 8,700 women did track.
27,000 men played football, while 11,000 did track. Nearly 20,000 TnF participants total.

In terms talent development, there is certainly a big enough talent pool to draw from.

Financial resources are harder to narrow down, but the NCAA system does very well to support athletes during the pre-professional phase of a career. I doubt anyone could make the argument that Jamaica supports its top athletes better than the US, or supports a broader pool of talent as the US.
 
Jun 14, 2010
34,930
60
22,580
Re: Re:

armchairclimber said:
irondan said:
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Nice catwalk for the 4x400 race... after practising in the 1st rounds, now it works. I´d say Hastings (USA) won the comp...

Edit: So, so, nowadays a monster race by Felix isnt enough anymore. Once again the 3 million nation beats the biggest talent pool with the best infrastructure in sports (USA, 300+ mio population). :rolleyes: Omg!
That's not at all surprising to me considering that all the really fast athletes in the USA play other sports, such as football, basketball, baseball, ect.. The money in pro football has lured away ALL the athletes that could be developed into great track and field athletes. What's left are the ones that can't make it in pro sports in America (Gatlin, ect..). Jamaica isn't competing against the best the US has to offer, not by a longshot.

Good post. Things are rarely as simple as they might appear. Track and Field is a minority sport in the USA but, especially in the last 10 years, a really big deal in Jamaica.


As far as Jamaican doping goes, things are as absolutely as simple as they appear.

Blake tested positive. Asapha Powell tested positive. SAFP tested positive. Sherone Simpson tested positive. Steve Mullings tested positive. All of them won gold medals for Jamaica at world championships.
People in Jamaican anti doping have admitted its basically a haven from WADA testing and their athletes are free to dope as much as they want prior to major competitions.

Since their first olympic domination in 2008 12 Jamaican sprinters have tested positive.

Are you seriously trying to argue that Jamaica's recent success has been down to something other than drugs?

Also Jamaica was always big on 100m. You can't tell me suddenly in the early 2000's when Bolt and Blake and Powell and Nesta were teenagers and young Usain was flying to see Muller Wolfahrt Jamaica became interested in athletics and that's why they started to dominate. Please. They were big on it in the 80's and 90's but didn't dominate like today.

BTW, in the US the fastest athletes, contrary to being lured away by other sports, actually will end up doing both sports in high school, college etc.
 

Latest posts