Doping In Athletics

[Billie]

Something Malcolm Gladwell once (it was in a pretty funny context because he compared it to DiCaprio dating supermodels )said about Jamaican sprinting. Thought it was intresting. Dont think they're clean or anything

Jamaica, a country one-tenth the size of Cuba, has now produced the world’s best sprinters for the past generation in numbers that defy all logic. Here, for example, are the results of the high school boys’ 100-meter finals from last year’s Jamaican Boys & Girls Athletics Championships:

Place Name School Time
1 Zharnel Hughes Kingston College 10.12R
2 Jevaughn Minzie Bog Walk High 10.16
3 Raheem Robinson Wolmer’s High 10.37
4 Martin Manley St. Jago High 10.38
5 Waseem Williams Jamaica College 10.40
6 Tyler Mason Jamaica College 10.48
7 Javoy Tucker Wolmer’s High 10.64
8 Odane Bernard Donald Quarrie High 10.75

“For those who are not track fans, I should point out that this final is probably faster than the ADULT national finals in virtually every country in the world except the United States. So why are the Jamaicans so good? There are many reasons, but the simplest is that the effect of peers on high performance is REALLY strong. In Jamaica, EVERYONE sprints. There are 20 heats in the 100-meter regional championships. And because everyone sprints, and the average quality of sprinting is so high, everyone’s expectations are raised accordingly. The psychological ceiling on elite performance if you are a high school sprinter in Kingston is, like, a foot higher than if you are a high school sprinter in America.”

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

BTW, in the US the fastest athletes, contrary to being lured away by other sports, actually will end up doing both sports in high school, college etc.

Absolutely.

So even if a few Football speedsters are going to the NFL, they still sprint as College athlets. The following I named already shone at WC and Olympics before their NFL career.
Jim Hines
Ron Brown
Sam Graddy
Renaldo Nehemiah
Willie Gault
John Capel (didnt make the NFL)
James Jett
and more

IOW: No single sprint talent is "lost" to Football. Thanks for reminding me about that Hitch.

So the Q remains: Where are they now? How comes the 300 million + country with free athletic scholarships & super duper sports infrastructure cant cope with the sprinters from a far away small Island of 3 mio people anymore?

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Nice catwalk for the 4x400 race... after practising in the 1st rounds, now it works. I´d say Hastings (USA) won the comp...

Edit: So, so, nowadays a monster race by Felix isnt enough anymore. Once again the 3 million nation beats the biggest talent pool with the best infrastructure in sports (USA, 300+ mio population). Omg!

That's not at all surprising to me considering that all the really fast athletes in the USA play other sports, such as football, basketball, baseball, ect.. The money in pro football has lured away ALL the athletes that could be developed into great track and field athletes. What's left are the ones that can't make it in pro sports in America (Gatlin, ect..). Jamaica isn't competing against the best the US has to offer, not by a longshot.

Remember, of those talented speedsters only a few make it in the NFL (so lets cut the talent pool from 300+ million to 300 million, with the same perfect infrastructure)... In the old(er) times you had Jim Hines, Ron Brown, Sam Graddy, Renaldo Nehemiah, Willie Gault, John Capel, to name a few that just come to mind... all Footballers who were world class olympic sprinters too. Where are they now?

I don't see how NFL would inhibit sprinters, at all.

Where would someone with the body type of a sprinter play in the nfl? - Wide receiver or punt returner. Maybe cornerback or running back.

In other words they'd mostly be running really fast all the time anyway. Just specific routes. Especially wide receivers.

BTW CJ Spiller for example competed in track meets in his early years in the nfl, olympic trials as well if memory serves well. He's not the only one. Jordy Nelson won his state 200m championships.

The fastest guys are often low round picks who are there to make up the numbers or play a role on special teams, who are only there because of their speed to begin with, not top guys making big bucks.

I don't see how the top sprinters would be stopped from reaching their potential by playing football

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If someone throwing a shotput can do their same shotput training, improve their throw a METER in a year's time and become a world champion sprinter, why can't someone participate in a sport that involves lots of sprinting and not improve their sprint?

Man I am sticking to cycling. Keeping up with all these rules and combinations is too confusement.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I don't see how the top sprinters would be stopped from reaching their potential by playing football

Agree.

It wasnt me saying the T&F sprinters talent pool in the USA is "reduced" due Football...

Anyway, the ones I named were all indeed speedy WRs & KRs. A few of them had really good NFL careers (Gault WC medalist & SB star; same with Nehemiah + 110 Hurdles WR; Jim Hines 100m WR Olympic champ + Dallas Cowboys star)...

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

I don't see how the top sprinters would be stopped from reaching their potential by playing football

Agree.

It wasnt me saying the top T &F sprinters in the USA are "reduced" due Football...

Anyway, the ones I named were all indeed speedy WRs & KRs. A few of them had really good NFL careers (Gault WC medalist & SB star; same with Nehemiah + 110 Hurdles WR; Jim Hines 100m WR Olympic champ + Dallas Cowboys star)...

I know it wasn't you. I was just following on the point.

 

[Irondan]

I'm fully aware of all the current and previous NFL players that also competed in track, they're not who I was referring to so much.

My point was that the greatest athletes in the US were not competing in T&F because they chose pro sports, mostly football, and dedicated their lives to training for the chosen sport. My point was also that the athletes that do t&f in the US are the ones that were not good enough to play pro sports in the US at the highest level.

Nobody knows how some of the greatest players in the NFL would have developed in track because they didn't train for it.

The athletes that play in the NFL in the 'skill' positions are some of the most gifted physical athletes in the world.
If these US athletes decided to dedicate their lives to T&F, they may have been the best sprinters in the world, who knows? It's entirely plausible. The same can't be said of the best athletes in t&f. They mostly struggle when they try to do both sports. That's already been proven.

 

[beowulf]

Re:

The commentating jubilation re: Bolt was raised earlier and a few posters said, "meh I don't see anything wrong".

Kimmage sums it up well here, I believe:

Cue footage from the BBC Radio 5 Live commentary box of an ecstatic Allison Curbishley jumping up and down with Darren Campbell. And then there was Brendan Foster's soft-shoe shuffle in a video posted by Paula Radcliffe on her Twitter feed: 'This is what it means to Bren.'

And finally Cram again, who responded to Nehemiah and the criticism of their abject lack of professionalism, by insisting it was justified.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/paul-kimmage-bbcs-former-athletes-show-admirable-talent-for-backpedalling-31487856.html

The rest of the article asks the elephantine question, "What if Gatlin was British" and the obvious answer is the Linford Christie episode.

This Kimmage article hits the nail smack, bang on the head.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re:

I'm fully aware of all the current and previous NFL players that also competed in track, they're not who I was referring to so much.

My point was that the greatest athletes in the US were not competing in T&F because they chose pro sports, mostly football, and dedicated their lives to training for the chosen sport. My point was also that the athletes that do t&f in the US are the ones that were not good enough to play pro sports in the US at the highest level.

Nobody knows how some of the greatest players in the NFL would have developed in track because they didn't train for it.

The athletes that play in the NFL in the 'skill' positions are some of the most gifted physical athletes in the world.
If these US athletes decided to dedicate their lives to T&F, they may have been the best sprinters in the world, who knows? It's entirely plausible. The same can't be said of the best athletes in t&f. They mostly struggle when they try to do both sports. That's already been proven.

You think there is a better version of Ashton Eaton somewhere in the NFL ranks?

Hard to prove, but I disagree that we don't know.

Very, very few athletes, the kind we're talking about here, would have gone through High School without playing something else. Football in the fall, Track in the Spring (Basketball in the winter). If the talent was there in something, by the end of high school, the athlete would know what it is, and so would the High School coaches and college coaches recruiting him.

Using the measuring sticks we have: what football players are faster than Walter Dix? Or Devon Allen? "Only" a 13.16 110m hurdler, but led his 2nd place Oregon football team in reception yards, touchdowns, and longest reception run.

I got really interest, so I started digging. Another example is 2014 #4 ranked TCU's Kolby Listenbee, 10.04 guy, who was second on his team in reception yards. Was the other guy better because of his speed? No. Josh Doctson posted a 4.40 40yd in practice, while Kolby put up a 4.29 (24th fastest in NCAA). Kolby is still competing, and not a "lost" talent.

(40yd times are good for nothing: they are timed by a coach with a stopwatch reacting to the players movement. Football is trying to get more sophisticated, with FAT timing, sometimes, but it will never be an objective measure.)

But I was curious, so I came across this list: top football players ranked by speed: 40yd times, as well as other stats. Listenbee, 10.04 sprints was 24th. Were the other 23 guys awesome track talents that never tried the sport, or otherwise gave up running?

Dallas Burroughs (23rd) was a 10.34 runner in HS. Really, really, good. 16th in the US that year. Could have been a good track talent.
Kailo Moore ran 10.41 in HS. Ranked 31st that year, but one spot behind freshman Trayvon Bromel (recent WC bronze). Did not run in college.
Jabrill Peppers ran 10.52 in HS Did not run in college.
Marlon Humphrey ran 10.63 100m, and a 13.38 hurdles (junior height). Led the US that year in the 110s Did not run in college.
Cameron Echols-Luper is still running in college, after a 10.57 in HS, he is now a 20.39 runner in college.
Miles Shuler 100 meters in 10.7 in HS Did not run in college.
Ronald Darby Ranked 18th in the 200m, 21.06 in HS, and 10.41 in the 100m Did not run in college.
Tony Brown ran 10.37 as a HS junior (graduated early), but is still competing in college (8th place 4x100m)
Tyreek Hill led the nation in the 200m, 20.17. He is also still competing, has set a school record and won a conference title.
Raheem Mostert is also still competing, running 10.28 and 20.65 last outdoors.
Thomas Tyner ranked 19th with a 10.31 in HS, and has not run since. Missed talent.
Khalfani Muhammad is still competing, running 10.22 two years ago at Cal Berkley
And the fastest on the list? 13.16 guy from above, Devon Allen.

So of all those guys, there were some really good runners who hung up the spikes after highschool. But the of only guys who had potential to help out team USA this year, two are not competing (I'm looking at the (10.31 and 10.34 guys). As a benchmark, Trayvon Bromell ran 10.01. And the fastest talents are still running.

So no, the US is not diluting its talent.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Re: Re:

I think you are mixing up different things. Dutch sport stipends are not given to athletes in the beginning of their career. They have to be in the world top 8 in an Olympic sport to achieve 'A status'. .

I'm just going by what your media prints. Jamile Samuel achieved "A-status" in 2012 when she was 19. I didn't know she was in the world top-8 back then. Are you sure? Schippers had better results back then already.

But that isn't only paid by the taxpayer, which you claimed.

They can get some stipend, just as most of the Europeans. In the Netherlands that stipend becomes cancelled once they earn more than 125% of the gross minimum wage. Source is an 'NRC career' article titled 'from only sport you can't earn a living' (2012).

What I choose to ignore are accusation that are based on time alone. It isn't based on the reputation of the country, the doctors, or drinking a glass of beer with Seb Coe.

I also ignore the idea that Jamaica hasn't an elite programme, which cost the government more than 610 million across all levels at a population of 2.7 million.

Schippers still received a government salary last year, according to that Volkskrant article. There's no way her earnings were less than the minimum wage back then, also considering her sponsors (Nike, etc.)

Regardless of which of the two articles is correct, she had it at one point. That's like 70 percent of the minimum wage + a shitload of expenses + a car + free public transportation. Very generous, IMO. If you maintain that Jamaican athletes get a similar deal, then please provide a link.

The Jamaican government doesn't spend 614 mil "a year" (one year, 2012) of Jamaican taxpayer's money on sports. A big chunk of that is from outside sources. It also looks like the European Union (ha - when will Europeans ever learn) contributed heavily.

--

Minister with responsibility for Sports, Hon. Natalie Neita Headley, has informed that the Government spent a total of $614.18 million on sports development in 2012.

The Minister, who made the disclosure while contributing to the 2013/14 Sectoral Debate in the House of Representatives on June 5, said the funds were expended through the Sports Development Foundation (SDF).

Of the sum, she said $57 million was given as grants to government sport agencies; another $121.9 million for infrastructure projects, including funds sourced from the Constituency Development Fund ($8.73 million) and the European Union ($79.1 million) and an additional $24.2 million for athletes’ welfare.

She added that a number of multipurpose courts, playfields, and fencing of facilities were also completed last year, at a cost of approximately $79 million by the SDF, under the (EU) fund for areas defined as sugar dependent.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

I'm fully aware of all the current and previous NFL players that also competed in track, they're not who I was referring to so much.

My point was that the greatest athletes in the US were not competing in T&F because they chose pro sports, mostly football, and dedicated their lives to training for the chosen sport. My point was also that the athletes that do t&f in the US are the ones that were not good enough to play pro sports in the US at the highest level.

Nobody knows how some of the greatest players in the NFL would have developed in track because they didn't train for it.

The athletes that play in the NFL in the 'skill' positions are some of the most gifted physical athletes in the world.
If these US athletes decided to dedicate their lives to T&F, they may have been the best sprinters in the world, who knows? It's entirely plausible. The same can't be said of the best athletes in t&f. They mostly struggle when they try to do both sports. That's already been proven.

Your point is purely theoretical and I think flawed.

I don't buy that being a good sprinter requires you to train exclusively that at the expense of everything else for your entire life. Usain bolt himself transitioned to 100 and broke the wr a few races later.

If guys like dion and bo and ai can grow up their whole lives playing 2 sports at an extremely high level and in the case of the former 2 making pro at both is it that difficult to imagine that a naturally fast person could mix football with sprinting.

They do do it.

The fastest guys will get spotted very quickly during their teenage years. And they are not going to ignore the chance to try and compete to be the fastest in their city/state/ age group etc because it's an ego thing.

Also, Jamaica are also kicking the USA in women's sprinting. But there is no major collegiate system that could steal their best athletes from track.

If "other sports" was the reason you would see Jamaica win more in men's but usa dominate in women's sprinting.

Clearly it's something else

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah wasn't there some guy from college who got both drafted for both the NBA and MLB? Difference isn't that big

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Re: Re:

I think you are mixing up different things. Dutch sport stipends are not given to athletes in the beginning of their career. They have to be in the world top 8 in an Olympic sport to achieve 'A status'. .

I'm just going by what your media prints. Jamile Samuel achieved "A-status" in 2012 when she was 19. I didn't know she was in the world top-8 back then. Are you sure? Schippers had better results back then already.

But that isn't only paid by the taxpayer, which you claimed.

They can get some stipend, just as most of the Europeans. In the Netherlands that stipend becomes cancelled once they earn more than 125% of the gross minimum wage. Source is an 'NRC career' article titled 'from only sport you can't earn a living' (2012).

What I choose to ignore are accusation that are based on time alone. It isn't based on the reputation of the country, the doctors, or drinking a glass of beer with Seb Coe.

I also ignore the idea that Jamaica hasn't an elite programme, which cost the government more than 610 million across all levels at a population of 2.7 million.

Schippers still received a government salary last year, according to that Volkskrant article. There's no way her earnings were less than the minimum wage back then, also considering her sponsors (Nike, etc.)

Regardless of which of the two articles is correct, she had it at one point. That's like 70 percent of the minimum wage + a shitload of expenses + a car + free public transportation. Very generous, IMO. If you maintain that Jamaican athletes get a similar deal, then please provide a link.

The Jamaican government doesn't spend 614 mil "a year" (one year, 2012) of Jamaican taxpayer's money on sports. A big chunk of that is from outside sources. It also looks like the European Union (ha - when will Europeans ever learn) contributed heavily.

--

Minister with responsibility for Sports, Hon. Natalie Neita Headley, has informed that the Government spent a total of $614.18 million on sports development in 2012.

The Minister, who made the disclosure while contributing to the 2013/14 Sectoral Debate in the House of Representatives on June 5, said the funds were expended through the Sports Development Foundation (SDF).

Of the sum, she said $57 million was given as grants to government sport agencies; another $121.9 million for infrastructure projects, including funds sourced from the Constituency Development Fund ($8.73 million) and the European Union ($79.1 million) and an additional $24.2 million for athletes’ welfare.

She added that a number of multipurpose courts, playfields, and fencing of facilities were also completed last year, at a cost of approximately $79 million by the SDF, under the (EU) fund for areas defined as sugar dependent.

By the way, Defiets, we're talking Jamaican dollars here, not U.S. dollars. 614 millon Jamaican dollars ~ $5,200,000 U.S.

 

[Eagle]

Re:

Yeah wasn't there some guy from college who got both drafted for both the NBA and MLB? Difference isn't that big

Lots of NFL players get drafted in the MLB draft, Russell Wilson was a fourth round pick, Tom Brady an 18th pick

 

[Defiets]

Re: Re:

Schippers still received a government salary last year, according to that Volkskrant article. There's no way her earnings were less than the minimum wage back then, also considering her sponsors (Nike, etc.)

That piece of 24-08-2014 was an op-ed. There shouldn't be the impression it was a regular editorial piece. And probably it was referring to the prior seasons, the closed fiscal years. Plus, she has only a shoe contract since halfway 2013.

It is just a fact that athletes lose their stipend once they earn more than 125% of the minimum wage or 140% in special cases.

If you maintain that Jamaican athletes get a similar deal, then please provide a link.

They don't flea the country en masse any more. Both the up and coming talents and the arrived stars. This should already tell a bit. Ben Johnson left the country aged 14, and became subsequently naturalized by Canada.

The Jamaican government doesn't spend 614 mil "a year" (one year, 2012) of Jamaican taxpayer's money on sports. A big chunk of that is from outside sources.

It wasn't me who claimed the full sum is paid by the taxpayer, as you wrongly did for the Netherlands. It is also only 25% of the money pool, that then becomes allocated to the National Governing Bodies. The money books don't appear to be overly transparent and structured.
"A report from the Jamaica Information Service (JIS) shows that Jamaica for this year alone (2013) has pumped $614 million (Jamaica dollars) into sports development, which is less than half the amount put out by their Trinidad and Tobago counterparts for the same period, yet they have been able to produce some of the top athletes in the world. This amount, it is understood, represents approximately 25 percent of the budget for the NGBs’ allocations in Jamaica."

As 'Aapjes' indicated as well, probably one can do a lot more with 1 dollar in Jamaica as in Europe.
"So Jamaica puts all their effort in short distance running. Most kids choose it as their sport, runners face a lot of high level competition within their country, can relatively easily find experienced coaches, etc, etc. Dutch talents have to find their own way much more, which is a big disadvantage.

Your point about a lack of government sponsorship is irrelevant if business sponsors see Jamaican athletes as good investments. But even without sponsorship, Jamaican athletes can find top-tier competitions in their own country. Someone like Schippers always need to travel abroad to find real competition. That is much more costly."

Concerning the A-status of Samuel, that was because she was part of the 4x100 relay team as you have perhaps seen. Which has performed on a consistent base among the best eight countries.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Yeah wasn't there some guy from college who got both drafted for both the NBA and MLB? Difference isn't that big

Bo got drafted number 1 in both

 

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

Yeah wasn't there some guy from college who got both drafted for both the NBA and MLB? Difference isn't that big

Bo got drafted number 1 in both

he didn't know cricket though.

alright, top 3 most suspicious performances from the 2015 worlds.

womens 5,000
mens javelin
womens 1,500

 

[The Frog]

So, as a frenchie, I would like to ask the clinic what they think about a number of "french feel good stories". I'll do it chronologically:
[...]
I've got my opinion but I'd be happy to read yours.

In general, everyone competing in athletics at the highest level is suspect. Some things increase the suspicion:
- Very good results
- From a country that has a doping program and/or many popped athletes
- Association with doping doctors, etc

Yet an athlete who has none of these attributes can be doping too. So...

Thanks for your answer but I hoped for something more specific (even if it was: "Arron clean?! You must be really ignorant/stupid/moronic/blindly patriotic to believe that" ). I was curious to know how these athletes (Perec, Arron, Hurtis, Lemaitre) where perceived in other countries, but I do realize that they aren't really famous outside french borders.

 

[iejeecee]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/34101774

how hypocritical can the BBC get?

Dafne Schippers:

Because of where the sport is, because of what the sport has seen, the questions began almost immediately.

This is a woman who switched her attention full-time to the sprints in June this year having made her name as a heptathlete. She has knocked four-tenths of a second of her personal best in the space of a year, and become the first European woman to win a world sprint medal in 10 years.

Both Schippers and her coach insist that she is clean. Maybe it is a shame that a performance so astounding produces such a response. Equally, the sport cannot claim to have learned from its past if it does not.

The English...

There was brilliance from the old guard. All three of the home gold medallists from London 2012's Super Saturday, Mo Farah, Greg Rutherford and Jessica Ennis-Hill, came back to win gold once again, in Ennis-Hill's case just 13 months after the birth of her son Reggie and nine months after she began her training again with a 15-minute pedal on a bike.

 

[Defiets]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/34101774

how hypocritical can the BBC get?

Dafne Schippers:

Because of where the sport is, because of what the sport has seen, the questions began almost immediately.

This is a woman who switched her attention full-time to the sprints in June this year having made her name as a heptathlete. She has knocked four-tenths of a second of her personal best in the space of a year, and become the first European woman to win a world sprint medal in 10 years.

Both Schippers and her coach insist that she is clean. Maybe it is a shame that a performance so astounding produces such a response. Equally, the sport cannot claim to have learned from its past if it does not.

The English...

There was brilliance from the old guard. All three of the home gold medallists from London 2012's Super Saturday, Mo Farah, Greg Rutherford and Jessica Ennis-Hill, came back to win gold once again, in Ennis-Hill's case just 13 months after the birth of her son Reggie and nine months after she began her training again with a 15-minute pedal on a bike.

Not a word about the progression of other rising stars, and thus also not the lady who finished just 0.03 seconds behind and shaved off 1.5 second within a year.

'Saviour' status.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

alright, top 3 most suspicious performances from the 2015 worlds.

womens 5,000
mens javelin
womens 1,500

1) Womens 1,500. If she runs the 800 in Rio, Dibaba should have to run three laps around the track beforehand to make it competitive for the other runners.
2) Mens 200. Bolt can't break 20 prior to Beijing, but then manages a 19.55 in the final.
3) Womens 4x400. As much as I enjoy watching the leggy Felix run, that was downright laughable.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Re: Re:

They don't flea the country en masse any more. Both the up and coming talents and the arrived stars. This should already tell a bit. Ben Johnson left the country aged 14, and became subsequently naturalized by Canada.
.

That doesn't mean that Jamaica takes care of its young talents, financially. Great that Jamaica's actual stars get paid through sponsorship deals and whatnot, great that the trainers, training facilities, gvt. programs, etc are there, but the fact that Thompson opted to stay in college instead of turning pro is perhaps an indication that things aren't as rosy as you think they are.

It wasn't me who claimed the full sum is paid by the taxpayer, as you wrongly did for the Netherlands.

I misread that part. "Mostly" then. It seems most of the millions come from a government lottery.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

So, as a frenchie, I would like to ask the clinic what they think about a number of "french feel good stories". I'll do it chronologically:
[...]
I've got my opinion but I'd be happy to read yours.

In general, everyone competing in athletics at the highest level is suspect. Some things increase the suspicion:
- Very good results
- From a country that has a doping program and/or many popped athletes
- Association with doping doctors, etc

Yet an athlete who has none of these attributes can be doping too. So...

Thanks for your answer but I hoped for something more specific (even if it was: "Arron clean?! You must be really ignorant/stupid/moronic/blindly patriotic to believe that" ). I was curious to know how these athletes (Perec, Arron, Hurtis, Lemaitre) where perceived in other countries, but I do realize that they aren't really famous outside french borders.

Of the hyped white sprinters Lemaitre is the most believable to me. Of course they (sprinters) all dope at that level, but he wasn't crazy fast or anything. His 9.92 was wind-legal, although barely. He also peaked early at age 20 or thereabouts. His appearance didn't change all that much when he got older, either.

 

[Defiets]

Re: Re:

They don't flea the country en masse any more. Both the up and coming talents and the arrived stars. This should already tell a bit. Ben Johnson left the country aged 14, and became subsequently naturalized by Canada.
.

That doesn't mean that Jamaica takes care of its young talents, financially. Great that Jamaica's actual stars get paid through sponsorship deals and whatnot, great that the trainers, training facilities, gvt. programs, etc are there, but the fact that Thompson opted to stay in college instead of turning pro is perhaps an indication that things aren't as rosy as you think they are.

Bolt, Powell, Carter, Blake and many others who broke the 10 seconds barrier never went to US colleges.

For the question of steep career times progression it is not very relevant. The facilities are what matters, which has an effect on the incentive to leave the country early (Daily Telegraph article). You as a Belgian seem to think the Jamaicans are Rocky while the Europeans or the Dutch are Ivan Drago. Bar the French athletes of course.

I misread that part. "Mostly" then. It seems most of the millions come from a government lottery.

Which is not the same as taxpayer. There are major corporate sponsors such as Unilever as well. Just as the EU funds for Jamaica do not arrive from the Jamaican taxpayer (the majority does however).

 

[Aapjes]

Re: Re:

That doesn't mean that Jamaica takes care of its young talents, financially. Great that Jamaica's actual stars get paid through sponsorship deals and whatnot, great that the trainers, training facilities, gvt. programs, etc are there, but the fact that Thompson opted to stay in college instead of turning pro is perhaps an indication that things aren't as rosy as you think they are.

You are focusing on salaries way too much, IMO. Most Dutch Olympic athletes are better off just getting a job. Schippers is really an exception who will get big sponsor contracts. Most are happy if they break even over their careers (especially the many who don't make it). They don't do it for the money and only a complete lack of money makes them quit for money reasons. The stipend + other benefits are just intended to keep athletes from quitting. I really don't believe it is very luxurious, as the Dutch government is notoriously stingy.

The cost per Dutch medal for Bejing was about 4.4M euro's (link in Dutch). GB paid considerably more at6.6M euro. Jamaica would have spend 4.6 M euro per year, which is 4.6 x 4 = 18.4 M euro for London. 18.4 M euro / 12 medals = 1.5 M euro per medal. A very good ROI.

Focusing on team sports tends to give the worst ROI. For field hockey, you need to support something like 16 players and you can only win 1 medal. In contrast, a single runner/swimmer can win in multiple events. So the focus on sprinters is very lucrative for Jamaica. They had 18 athletes win those 12 medals in London. In contrast, just 2 of the 20 Dutch medals were won by 33 field hockey players.

You also need separate facilities & trainers if you want to excel in different sports. Jamaica can spend all their money on sprint facilities and trainers. Those trainers can focus on athletes that are all on roughly the same level. Schippers' trainer has to spend a lot of time training young athletes and cannot even just focus on the sprint (he coaches heptathlon). Hardly optimal.

I misread that part. "Mostly" then. It seems most of the millions come from a government lottery.

Lottery income is rapidly declining though and heavy cuts have been made in the last few years, mostly in talent development.