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Doping In Athletics

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Sep 29, 2012
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armchairclimber said:
Anyone interested in some balance and some insight into the circumstances of the "dehydration" affected sample ... Renato Canova has made a couple of interesting points over the last 24 hours on various Radcliffe related threads. This one for instance (a few posts down the page) http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6736219&page=6
Why am I cynically expecting we would never find out the true gap between finish and blood sample...
 
Canova was there and reckons on just over 20 mins from what I understand....although, if dehydrated with no pee like his athlete, who knows. Dehydration would seem to have been quite extreme.

He posted something else earlier on Lets Run which was interesting....but can't remember where it was.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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So it was Paula on the list all along, but she waited until the last possible moment to release a carefully crafted PR message. The guilt-o-meter is off the charts.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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armchairclimber said:
Canova was there and reckons on just over 20 mins from what I understand....although, if dehydrated with no pee like his athlete, who knows. Dehydration would seem to have been quite extreme.

He posted something else earlier on Lets Run which was interesting....but can't remember where it was.
My question is -- how do you get so dehydrated and still kick everyone's butt?

That's what doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me.
 
Re: Re:

Dear Wiggo said:
armchairclimber said:
Canova was there and reckons on just over 20 mins from what I understand....although, if dehydrated with no pee like his athlete, who knows. Dehydration would seem to have been quite extreme.

He posted something else earlier on Lets Run which was interesting....but can't remember where it was.
My question is -- how do you get so dehydrated and still kick everyone's butt?

That's what doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me.
Dunno, but I guess everybody would have been dehydrated to some degree in that kind of heat. Famously she suffered in the Athens heat. I'll try and find that other Canova post because, wherever you stand re PR, he made some good points.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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armchairclimber said:
Dear Wiggo said:
armchairclimber said:
Canova was there and reckons on just over 20 mins from what I understand....although, if dehydrated with no pee like his athlete, who knows. Dehydration would seem to have been quite extreme.

He posted something else earlier on Lets Run which was interesting....but can't remember where it was.
My question is -- how do you get so dehydrated and still kick everyone's butt?

That's what doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me.
Dunno, but I guess everybody would have been dehydrated to some degree in that kind of heat. Famously she suffered in the Athens heat. I'll try and find that other Canova post because, wherever you stand re PR, he made some good points.
Yeah the 2 hour post-race recovery time for samples is a good move. We don't know her pre-comp Hgb, just the increase, so that does have an effect on the believability.

I find it curious her gap to 2nd (in that half in 2003) is half the gap in her WR to second in the marathon. Just a pattern, doesn't add anything to the case.

I think the thing I struggled with was her claiming it was not one of her better performances. This seems disingenuous, as from a time POV it is true, but relative to everyone else, she smashed them. It smells fishy and that's usually the last thing you want to smell when looking at dodgy physiology measurements.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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that Paula statement is like reading a martinvickers post. A carefully crafted wall of text designed to obfuscate and drown out any relevant points in a sea of noise.
 
I wouldn't pretend to read her mind but I suspects that, like most athletes, she'll use time as a marker for the merit of a performance. It's also probably not, retrospectively speaking, an event that would have been amongst the most memorable (ie not like a Chicago/Boston/New York? London marathon...just a half too).
As I said earlier, I'd like to hear what Ashenden says in response to the "irresponsible" accusation. It'll either be nothing or a robust defence.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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gooner said:
SeriousSam said:
That Walsh is a hypocrite so hilarious, not even Lance is oblivious to it. But, to be fair, Lance might not like Walsh that much.
This was released only yesterday.

It's one of the most meaningless responses I've seen so far to this topic, other than as you say from his own somehow satisfaction at getting a jibe in.

It's means nothing in the wider scale of the importance of this issue and particularly that Lance doesn't have the slightest interest or care in the world for.
Clock is ticking and days are passing by to wait on that FishHack Walsh to be objective.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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armchairclimber said:
I wouldn't pretend to read her mind but I suspects that, like most athletes, she'll use time as a marker for the merit of a performance. It's also probably not, retrospectively speaking, an event that would have been amongst the most memorable (ie not like a Chicago/Boston/New York? London marathon...just a half too).
As I said earlier, I'd like to hear what Ashenden says in response to the "irresponsible" accusation. It'll either be nothing or a robust defence.
It was a championship race and she had the greatest winning margin since ever. 12th IAAF World Half Marathon Championships.

I remember times too, but if I smash the field on a tough day with a poor(ish) time, I don't call it a poor performance. That's giving way too much benefit of the doubt to her words, imo.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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How funny would it be if Walsh got hired by team Paula to do the same job he did for Sky.. Mein Run 2 would be an instant bestseller
 
Aug 31, 2012
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Very interesting opinion here. Paula's physio. Clinic regulars will love this one, so many gems.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/09/paula-radcliffe-physical-therapist-gerard-hartman-clean-doping

For the lazy, some highlights:

-Would wager his life she's cleans
-There is no Floyd or Hamilton here because she's cleans
-Knows her well. Would have known if she doped.
-he concedes that her world record itself might raise eyebrows, but
--She worked harder than everyone else including other elite athletes.
--Paula apparently has the highest VO2max of any female in the literature!
-Paula wanted to sue Sunday times cos she cleans..
... but upon reflection, she instead wanted to approach the great David Walsh...
...who couldn't cooperate.
 
May 26, 2010
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SeriousSam said:
Very interesting opinion here. Paula's physio. Clinic regulars will love this one, so many gems.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/09/paula-radcliffe-physical-therapist-gerard-hartman-clean-doping

For the lazy, some highlights:

-Would wager his life she's cleans
-There is no Floyd or Hamilton here because she's cleans
-Knows her well. Would have known if she doped.
-he concedes that her world record itself might raise eyebrows, but
--She worked harder than everyone else including other elite athletes.
--Paula apparently has the highest VO2max of any female in the literature!
-Paula wanted to sue Sunday times cos she cleans..
... but upon reflection, she instead wanted to approach the great David Walsh...
...who couldn't cooperate.
Horrendous saying that she is no Armstrong, because no one can whistleblow on her.

This is easy to resolve if Radcliffe is clean. Release all her values from her career. If she doesn't well one can only draw the conclusion she is hiding something and that something is doping.
 
Jul 5, 2012
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So Canova can remember the time between the end of the race and the time the sample was taken, 13 years later? Can he remember for all the other times he was there for all athletes over the last X years? Or do they both (him and PR) know the time gap because they were told the result was abnormal some days/weeks later? Is there not a time stamp with all samples so this can be cross checked?
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Chipist said:
So Canova can remember the time between the end of the race and the time the sample was taken, 13 years later? Can he remember for all the other times he was there for all athletes over the last X years? Or do they both (him and PR) know the time gap because they were told the result was abnormal some days/weeks later? Is there not a time stamp with all samples so this can be cross checked?
Not even that. He would see her go in -- did he mention her coming back out again? Wait he didn't even see her enter the doping control area:
In the case of Vilamoura, I well remember that the presentation of the top 3 on the podium happened after no more than 5 minutes after the end of the race FOR THE FIRST GROUP OF ATHLETES (so the winners are on the podium while other athletes continue to arrive, same thing happens in every big Marathon), and the athletes MUST go to the control immediately after the winning ceremony, so no more than 20 minutes after the end of the race.
ie he has no idea the time between end of race and sample provided. None at all. The best he can do is say there was a 20 minute gap, but even that is dodgy.

He then goes on to say the athletes he chaperoned were waiting up to 6 hours or so (till 2am). He does not mention how long Paula was in the area or when she exited.
 
Re:

SeriousSam said:
Very interesting opinion here. Paula's physio. Clinic regulars will love this one, so many gems.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/09/paula-radcliffe-physical-therapist-gerard-hartman-clean-doping

For the lazy, some highlights:

-Would wager his life she's cleans
-There is no Floyd or Hamilton here because she's cleans
-Knows her well. Would have known if she doped.
-he concedes that her world record itself might raise eyebrows, but
--She worked harder than everyone else including other elite athletes.
--Paula apparently has the highest VO2max of any female in the literature!
-Paula wanted to sue Sunday times cos she cleans..
... but upon reflection, she instead wanted to approach the great David Walsh...
...who couldn't cooperate.
Hghh... I don't want to acknowledge the cronyism, but Radcliffe has claimed a VO2 of 73. That's that same as Grete Watiz, and less than Joan Benoit Samulson (78). A few XC skiers above (and well above) her. She is also matched by Paula Ivan, Russian 1500M Gold winner (Go google image her, I dare you), (71.0) Jarmila Krotochvilova,Czech Olympian 400M/800M winner, (72.8), both of whom may not be in good company to share.
 

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