Doping In Athletics

[Cake]

Re:

Doping manual:

You deny and hope it will pass.

If there is no more denying, hope that it will come out in a fashion where 90% of your competitors are also accused so you can claim the strongest still won.

Never be the first to admit. You'll be crucified while the rest of the dopers move on with their career.

I agree, and by the way that "how to deal with it" manual also applies to other great scandals of our time e.g. MPs expenses / phone hacking etc. It becomes a game of --string it out till everyone else has confessed, and no one will remember you confessing at the end--.

In a way, it's a perverse form of "last mover advantage"

 

[armchairclimber]

More from a different Torygraph journo http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/11852423/Paula-Radcliffe-defends-herself-against-claims-of-doping-but-does-it-stand-up-to-scrutiny.html

 

[GuyIncognito]

What are you people talking about? Brits don't dope. It's only the foreigners....

Reactions from british people to this whole thing on social media remind me of this scene from Blackadder

Captain Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshall Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.
General Melchett: Filthy hun weasels, fighting their dirty underhand war!
Captain Darling: And fortunately, one of our spies...
General Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes risking life and limb for Blighty!

 

[DirtyWorks]

Here's a nice summary of Paula's missteps.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/08/paula-radcliffe-fighting-doping-allegations

The IAAF probably helped write that nonsense statement from yesterday's hearing.

In theory, there are frozen blood samples from her peak performance era somewhere. Let's imagine she stops taking the IAAF's advice and locates the samples and releases them to Ashenden and Parisotto. There are real questions about the frozen blood being intact-enough to perform modern testing.

At this point, Radcliffe is another Chris Horner. A PED user that never tested positive.

 

[armchairclimber]

Anyone interested in some balance and some insight into the circumstances of the "dehydration" affected sample ... Renato Canova has made a couple of interesting points over the last 24 hours on various Radcliffe related threads. This one for instance (a few posts down the page) http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6736219&page=6

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

Anyone interested in some balance and some insight into the circumstances of the "dehydration" affected sample ... Renato Canova has made a couple of interesting points over the last 24 hours on various Radcliffe related threads. This one for instance (a few posts down the page) http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6736219&page=6

Why am I cynically expecting we would never find out the true gap between finish and blood sample...

 

[armchairclimber]

Canova was there and reckons on just over 20 mins from what I understand....although, if dehydrated with no pee like his athlete, who knows. Dehydration would seem to have been quite extreme.

He posted something else earlier on Lets Run which was interesting....but can't remember where it was.

 

[DirtyWorks]

This link won't work right beyond the day of the post, but Linford Christie posted some interesting things.
https://mobile.twitter.com/christielinford


https://mobile.twitter.com/ChristieLinford/status/641607783431979008/photo/1

Hmm. I wonder what that is referencing?

 

[armchairclimber]

He should effing know.

 

[the sceptic]

So it was Paula on the list all along, but she waited until the last possible moment to release a carefully crafted PR message. The guilt-o-meter is off the charts.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

Canova was there and reckons on just over 20 mins from what I understand....although, if dehydrated with no pee like his athlete, who knows. Dehydration would seem to have been quite extreme.

He posted something else earlier on Lets Run which was interesting....but can't remember where it was.

My question is -- how do you get so dehydrated and still kick everyone's butt?

That's what doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me.

 

[armchairclimber]

Re: Re:

Canova was there and reckons on just over 20 mins from what I understand....although, if dehydrated with no pee like his athlete, who knows. Dehydration would seem to have been quite extreme.

He posted something else earlier on Lets Run which was interesting....but can't remember where it was.

My question is -- how do you get so dehydrated and still kick everyone's butt?

That's what doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me.

Dunno, but I guess everybody would have been dehydrated to some degree in that kind of heat. Famously she suffered in the Athens heat. I'll try and find that other Canova post because, wherever you stand re PR, he made some good points.

 

[armchairclimber]

It's on page 5 of that same thread (I'd forgotten the his command of English ain't great)

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Canova was there and reckons on just over 20 mins from what I understand....although, if dehydrated with no pee like his athlete, who knows. Dehydration would seem to have been quite extreme.

He posted something else earlier on Lets Run which was interesting....but can't remember where it was.

My question is -- how do you get so dehydrated and still kick everyone's butt?

That's what doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me.

Dunno, but I guess everybody would have been dehydrated to some degree in that kind of heat. Famously she suffered in the Athens heat. I'll try and find that other Canova post because, wherever you stand re PR, he made some good points.

Yeah the 2 hour post-race recovery time for samples is a good move. We don't know her pre-comp Hgb, just the increase, so that does have an effect on the believability.

I find it curious her gap to 2nd (in that half in 2003) is half the gap in her WR to second in the marathon. Just a pattern, doesn't add anything to the case.

I think the thing I struggled with was her claiming it was not one of her better performances. This seems disingenuous, as from a time POV it is true, but relative to everyone else, she smashed them. It smells fishy and that's usually the last thing you want to smell when looking at dodgy physiology measurements.

 

[the sceptic]

that Paula statement is like reading a martinvickers post. A carefully crafted wall of text designed to obfuscate and drown out any relevant points in a sea of noise.

 

[armchairclimber]

I wouldn't pretend to read her mind but I suspects that, like most athletes, she'll use time as a marker for the merit of a performance. It's also probably not, retrospectively speaking, an event that would have been amongst the most memorable (ie not like a Chicago/Boston/New York? London marathon...just a half too).
As I said earlier, I'd like to hear what Ashenden says in response to the "irresponsible" accusation. It'll either be nothing or a robust defence.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

That Walsh is a hypocrite so hilarious, not even Lance is oblivious to it. But, to be fair, Lance might not like Walsh that much.

This was released only yesterday.

It's one of the most meaningless responses I've seen so far to this topic, other than as you say from his own somehow satisfaction at getting a jibe in.

It's means nothing in the wider scale of the importance of this issue and particularly that Lance doesn't have the slightest interest or care in the world for.

Clock is ticking and days are passing by to wait on that FishHack Walsh to be objective.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

I wouldn't pretend to read her mind but I suspects that, like most athletes, she'll use time as a marker for the merit of a performance. It's also probably not, retrospectively speaking, an event that would have been amongst the most memorable (ie not like a Chicago/Boston/New York? London marathon...just a half too).
As I said earlier, I'd like to hear what Ashenden says in response to the "irresponsible" accusation. It'll either be nothing or a robust defence.

It was a championship race and she had the greatest winning margin since ever. 12th IAAF World Half Marathon Championships.

I remember times too, but if I smash the field on a tough day with a poor(ish) time, I don't call it a poor performance. That's giving way too much benefit of the doubt to her words, imo.

 

[the sceptic]

How funny would it be if Walsh got hired by team Paula to do the same job he did for Sky.. Mein Run 2 would be an instant bestseller

 

[Brullnux]

Any athlete is guilty until proven innocent

 

[SeriousSam]

Very interesting opinion here. Paula's physio. Clinic regulars will love this one, so many gems.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/09/paula-radcliffe-physical-therapist-gerard-hartman-clean-doping

For the lazy, some highlights:

-Would wager his life she's cleans
-There is no Floyd or Hamilton here because she's cleans
-Knows her well. Would have known if she doped.
-he concedes that her world record itself might raise eyebrows, but
--She worked harder than everyone else including other elite athletes.
--Paula apparently has the highest VO2max of any female in the literature!
-Paula wanted to sue Sunday times cos she cleans..
... but upon reflection, she instead wanted to approach the great David Walsh...
...who couldn't cooperate.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Threaten to sue ST and then ask ST employed journo to help her and get knocked back?

Well duh.

 

[the sceptic]

Now we just need Baron Coe to become the new Hein

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Very interesting opinion here. Paula's physio. Clinic regulars will love this one, so many gems.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/09/paula-radcliffe-physical-therapist-gerard-hartman-clean-doping

For the lazy, some highlights:

-Would wager his life she's cleans
-There is no Floyd or Hamilton here because she's cleans
-Knows her well. Would have known if she doped.
-he concedes that her world record itself might raise eyebrows, but
--She worked harder than everyone else including other elite athletes.
--Paula apparently has the highest VO2max of any female in the literature!
-Paula wanted to sue Sunday times cos she cleans..
... but upon reflection, she instead wanted to approach the great David Walsh...
...who couldn't cooperate.

Horrendous saying that she is no Armstrong, because no one can whistleblow on her.

This is easy to resolve if Radcliffe is clean. Release all her values from her career. If she doesn't well one can only draw the conclusion she is hiding something and that something is doping.

 

[Benotti69]

Steve Redgrave defending Radcliffe Brits dont dope hahaha