Degenkolb was not named as getting the same treatment as Kittel as far as I remember.
And I am not sure that it is the same clinic.
And I am not sure that it is the same clinic.
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GuyIncognito said:ecw445 said:Koronin said:Can we hope this doesn't turn into another Operation Puerto? Not surprising this case is getting bigger, just hoping that it gets a resolution so we aren't still talking about 15 years later.
Considering no Germans or Austrians have been pumping out huge results in this decade, I doubt it'll be much, unless Kittel or Tony Martin are somehow involved
I will be shocked if Kittel and Degenkolb aren't involved
roundabout said:Degenkolb was not named as getting the same treatment as Kittel as far as I remember.
And I am not sure that it is the same clinic.
GuyIncognito said:roundabout said:Degenkolb was not named as getting the same treatment as Kittel as far as I remember.
And I am not sure that it is the same clinic.
It's the same clinic. Degenkolb was not specifically named, and neither was Kittel. But the media were confident enough in their sources to report the names of the riders involved. Gretsch was the other high profile pro.
In fact, there were several others from the Thuringer team
Funny how it ended Steigmiller's career but not anyone else's, even though Steigmiller and Kittel both admitted to doing the exact same thing.
Question is: if either of them is indeed involved, would it come out nowadays?GuyIncognito said:ecw445 said:Koronin said:Can we hope this doesn't turn into another Operation Puerto? Not surprising this case is getting bigger, just hoping that it gets a resolution so we aren't still talking about 15 years later.
Considering no Germans or Austrians have been pumping out huge results in this decade, I doubt it'll be much, unless Kittel or Tony Martin are somehow involved
I will be shocked if Kittel and Degenkolb aren't involved
If it is in the hands of police investigators (and especially Austrian and German ones), rather than anti-doping authorities or sports federation, I would say it is almost certain everyone will be exposed. At least I hopeglassmoon said:Question is: if either of them is indeed involved, would it come out nowadays?GuyIncognito said:ecw445 said:Koronin said:Can we hope this doesn't turn into another Operation Puerto? Not surprising this case is getting bigger, just hoping that it gets a resolution so we aren't still talking about 15 years later.
Considering no Germans or Austrians have been pumping out huge results in this decade, I doubt it'll be much, unless Kittel or Tony Martin are somehow involved
I will be shocked if Kittel and Degenkolb aren't involved
Maybe Austria just has a history of actual decent doping investigations by the policeGigs_98 said:Let's start this thread with a quote of the president of Austria's skiing federation Peter Schröcksnadel "Austria is a too small country to do good doping"
Well he certainly wasn't wrong as what Austrian athletes do can be called anything but good. Austria already had a long doping history and right now Austrian endurance athletes are falling like flies. What on earth is wrong here and how far can this scandal go?
Red Rick said:Maybe Austria just has a history of actual decent doping investigations by the policeGigs_98 said:Let's start this thread with a quote of the president of Austria's skiing federation Peter Schröcksnadel "Austria is a too small country to do good doping"
Well he certainly wasn't wrong as what Austrian athletes do can be called anything but good. Austria already had a long doping history and right now Austrian endurance athletes are falling like flies. What on earth is wrong here and how far can this scandal go?
Exactly. This is exactly anti doping is a doomed concept in the first place the way it's organised now.ppanther92 said:Red Rick said:Maybe Austria just has a history of actual decent doping investigations by the policeGigs_98 said:Let's start this thread with a quote of the president of Austria's skiing federation Peter Schröcksnadel "Austria is a too small country to do good doping"
Well he certainly wasn't wrong as what Austrian athletes do can be called anything but good. Austria already had a long doping history and right now Austrian endurance athletes are falling like flies. What on earth is wrong here and how far can this scandal go?
Kind of a paradox situation, isn't it? Let's suppose that is indeed the case and austrian authorities are making a really good job. What do they gain from it? Nothing. Rather the opposite. They are now considered the "dirty" austrians. Shows pretty well that anti-doping is kind off a lost cause. In the end, everyone (sponsors, athletes, authorities, fans, ...) is better off, if no one is exposed at all.
tobydawq said:I know that these past revelations seem to confirm a lot of people in their beliefs that nothing has changed and that everything is just like it was before. However, I think this is simply not true, even if this opinion is unpopular on this subforum.
I think people generally are being too anti-naïve (thinking any cleanness in cycling is an absolute impossibility), making them refuse to believe that the omertà is less pronounced than earlier, that most riders are generally disgusted by exposed dopers and that any anti-doping efforts work in the slightest.
It's only on the third parameter I tend to agree, however.
And I can't seem to recall any precedence of a rider admitting to doping (or at least having intended to do it), like Preidler did. The fact that he had such a blackened conscience that he needed to come forward instead of hoping that the storm would blow past him tells me that he knew that this was not something everybody else was doing.
Maybe I have to take back a few things I wrote. The doping meassures nowadays most likely aren't as extreme as in the past as you'll get caught if you pump all EPO you can get into your body. Not saying EPO isn't used anymore, but surely the micro dosing everyone is talking about is less effective than, well, macro dosing. Therefore the advantages you get by doping aren't as big as they used to be which is why I believe you can be half competitive while being clean. Still, if you ever wanted prove that you can still dope without it being detected, this scandal is exactly that. And I definitely believe as long as you can dope without being caught, people will do it.tobydawq said:I know that these past revelations seem to confirm a lot of people in their beliefs that nothing has changed and that everything is just like it was before. However, I think this is simply not true, even if this opinion is unpopular on this subforum.
I think people generally are being to anti-naïve (thinking any cleanness in cycling is an absolute impossibility), making them refuse to believe that the omertà is less pronounced than earlier, that most riders are generally disgusted by exposed dopers and that any anti-doping efforts work in the slightest.
It's only on the third parameter I tend to agree, however.
And I can't seem to recall any precedence of a rider admitting to doping (or at least having intended to do it) without even being accused of doing anything wrong, like Preidler did. The fact that he had such a blackened conscience that he needed to come forward instead of hoping that the storm would blow past him tells me that he knew that this was not something everybody else was doing.
Bavarianrider said:Johannes Dürr has been arrested. I hope he really come clean know.
BullsFan22 said:Did he get arrested because he is sought after because of the 'spilling of beans' he did with ARD? Or is he arrested because the new investigation implicated him in doping (again) as well? Is the police simply looking for more answers and dots to connect and why not use him because he seems to be 'in the know?' Or was it Hauke, Baldauf, Schmidt or someone from the ÖSV that outed him?
I think the only official reason given so far is that Dürr violated the Austrian Anti Doping law.ppanther92 said:BullsFan22 said:Did he get arrested because he is sought after because of the 'spilling of beans' he did with ARD? Or is he arrested because the new investigation implicated him in doping (again) as well? Is the police simply looking for more answers and dots to connect and why not use him because he seems to be 'in the know?' Or was it Hauke, Baldauf, Schmidt or someone from the ÖSV that outed him?
Baldauf and Hauke apparently both stated that Dürr introduced them to Schmidt in 2016.
Gigs_98 said:tobydawq said:I know that these past revelations seem to confirm a lot of people in their beliefs that nothing has changed and that everything is just like it was before. However, I think this is simply not true, even if this opinion is unpopular on this subforum.
I think people generally are being to anti-naïve (thinking any cleanness in cycling is an absolute impossibility), making them refuse to believe that the omertà is less pronounced than earlier, that most riders are generally disgusted by exposed dopers and that any anti-doping efforts work in the slightest.
It's only on the third parameter I tend to agree, however.
And I can't seem to recall any precedence of a rider admitting to doping (or at least having intended to do it) without even being accused of doing anything wrong, like Preidler did. The fact that he had such a blackened conscience that he needed to come forward instead of hoping that the storm would blow past him tells me that he knew that this was not something everybody else was doing.
Jérôme Chiottitobydawq said:I know that these past revelations seem to confirm a lot of people in their beliefs that nothing has changed and that everything is just like it was before. However, I think this is simply not true, even if this opinion is unpopular on this subforum.
I think people generally are being to anti-naïve (thinking any cleanness in cycling is an absolute impossibility), making them refuse to believe that the omertà is less pronounced than earlier, that most riders are generally disgusted by exposed dopers and that any anti-doping efforts work in the slightest.
It's only on the third parameter I tend to agree, however.
And I can't seem to recall any precedence of a rider admitting to doping (or at least having intended to do it) without even being accused of doing anything wrong, like Preidler did. The fact that he had such a blackened conscience that he needed to come forward instead of hoping that the storm would blow past him tells me that he knew that this was not something everybody else was doing.
I almost felt sorry for him, because he's screwed up his life, the idiot.
I would not go as far yet. Hauke posted a video on facebook this summer where they were doing a training session in Ramsau together. But thats rather weak evidence.BullsFan22 said:Yeah, that may be it as well. Landertinger involved as well?