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Doping in Austria

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Apr 8, 2018
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GuyIncognito said:
ecw445 said:
Koronin said:
Can we hope this doesn't turn into another Operation Puerto? Not surprising this case is getting bigger, just hoping that it gets a resolution so we aren't still talking about 15 years later.
Considering no Germans or Austrians have been pumping out huge results in this decade, I doubt it'll be much, unless Kittel or Tony Martin are somehow involved
I will be shocked if Kittel and Degenkolb aren't involved
It seems like a pretty lowrent, risky organisation, surely the riders making the big money would be able to find a safer, better organised program. Weren't the cross country stars second rate runners as well? Don't think any of the big dogs are going down.
 
Jun 27, 2013
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roundabout said:
Degenkolb was not named as getting the same treatment as Kittel as far as I remember.

And I am not sure that it is the same clinic.
It's the same clinic. Degenkolb was not specifically named, and neither was Kittel. But the media were confident enough in their sources to report the names of the riders involved. Gretsch was the other high profile pro.

In fact, there were several others from the Thuringer team

Funny how it ended Steigmiller's career but not Kittel or anyone else's, even though Steigmiller and Kittel both eventually admitted to using the exact same blood treatment.
 
Re: Re:

GuyIncognito said:
roundabout said:
Degenkolb was not named as getting the same treatment as Kittel as far as I remember.

And I am not sure that it is the same clinic.
It's the same clinic. Degenkolb was not specifically named, and neither was Kittel. But the media were confident enough in their sources to report the names of the riders involved. Gretsch was the other high profile pro.

In fact, there were several others from the Thuringer team

Funny how it ended Steigmiller's career but not anyone else's, even though Steigmiller and Kittel both admitted to doing the exact same thing.
A 30 second google search shows that Dr. Schmidt's practice is on the other side of town to the Olympic support center so at the very least it is probably not onsite.

Kittel and Gretsch were named by their team as receiving the treatment, Degenkolb was named as visiting Franke, but not getting the treatment. If you have any links naming Degenkolb you can share them here, because I was unable to find anything.
 
I have a feeling a lot more Austrian cyclists are going down. I predict Zoidl or Grossnarter as the next ones, just guesinng hahaha. Damn i really like Haller, hope he is not involved.
 
Re: Re:

GuyIncognito said:
ecw445 said:
Koronin said:
Can we hope this doesn't turn into another Operation Puerto? Not surprising this case is getting bigger, just hoping that it gets a resolution so we aren't still talking about 15 years later.
Considering no Germans or Austrians have been pumping out huge results in this decade, I doubt it'll be much, unless Kittel or Tony Martin are somehow involved
I will be shocked if Kittel and Degenkolb aren't involved
Question is: if either of them is indeed involved, would it come out nowadays?
 
Re: Re:

glassmoon said:
GuyIncognito said:
ecw445 said:
Koronin said:
Can we hope this doesn't turn into another Operation Puerto? Not surprising this case is getting bigger, just hoping that it gets a resolution so we aren't still talking about 15 years later.
Considering no Germans or Austrians have been pumping out huge results in this decade, I doubt it'll be much, unless Kittel or Tony Martin are somehow involved
I will be shocked if Kittel and Degenkolb aren't involved
Question is: if either of them is indeed involved, would it come out nowadays?
If it is in the hands of police investigators (and especially Austrian and German ones), rather than anti-doping authorities or sports federation, I would say it is almost certain everyone will be exposed. At least I hope :)
 
Gigs_98 said:
Let's start this thread with a quote of the president of Austria's skiing federation Peter Schröcksnadel "Austria is a too small country to do good doping"
Well he certainly wasn't wrong as what Austrian athletes do can be called anything but good. Austria already had a long doping history and right now Austrian endurance athletes are falling like flies. What on earth is wrong here and how far can this scandal go?
Maybe Austria just has a history of actual decent doping investigations by the police
 
Red Rick said:
Gigs_98 said:
Let's start this thread with a quote of the president of Austria's skiing federation Peter Schröcksnadel "Austria is a too small country to do good doping"
Well he certainly wasn't wrong as what Austrian athletes do can be called anything but good. Austria already had a long doping history and right now Austrian endurance athletes are falling like flies. What on earth is wrong here and how far can this scandal go?
Maybe Austria just has a history of actual decent doping investigations by the police
Kind of a paradox situation, isn't it? Let's suppose that is indeed the case and austrian authorities are making a really good job. What do they gain from it? Nothing. Rather the opposite. They are now considered the "dirty" austrians. Shows pretty well that anti-doping is kind off a lost cause. In the end, everyone (sponsors, athletes, authorities, fans, ...) is better off, if no one is exposed at all.
 
ppanther92 said:
Red Rick said:
Gigs_98 said:
Let's start this thread with a quote of the president of Austria's skiing federation Peter Schröcksnadel "Austria is a too small country to do good doping"
Well he certainly wasn't wrong as what Austrian athletes do can be called anything but good. Austria already had a long doping history and right now Austrian endurance athletes are falling like flies. What on earth is wrong here and how far can this scandal go?
Maybe Austria just has a history of actual decent doping investigations by the police
Kind of a paradox situation, isn't it? Let's suppose that is indeed the case and austrian authorities are making a really good job. What do they gain from it? Nothing. Rather the opposite. They are now considered the "dirty" austrians. Shows pretty well that anti-doping is kind off a lost cause. In the end, everyone (sponsors, athletes, authorities, fans, ...) is better off, if no one is exposed at all.
Exactly. This is exactly anti doping is a doomed concept in the first place the way it's organised now.
 
Johannes Dürr has been arrested. I hope he really come clean know.

By the way, Picture of Austrian ski federation Boss celebrating with caught dopers Botwinov and Hoffma a few days before Baldhauf and Hauke got busted.
So much about the credibilty of the ski federation and their boss.

 
I know that these past revelations seem to confirm a lot of people in their beliefs that nothing has changed and that everything is just like it was before. However, I think this is simply not true, even if this opinion is unpopular on this subforum.

I think people generally are being to anti-naïve (thinking any cleanness in cycling is an absolute impossibility), making them refuse to believe that the omertà is less pronounced than earlier, that most riders are generally disgusted by exposed dopers and that any anti-doping efforts work in the slightest.

It's only on the third parameter I tend to agree, however.

And I can't seem to recall any precedence of a rider admitting to doping (or at least having intended to do it) without even being accused of doing anything wrong, like Preidler did. The fact that he had such a blackened conscience that he needed to come forward instead of hoping that the storm would blow past him tells me that he knew that this was not something everybody else was doing.
 
Re:

tobydawq said:
I know that these past revelations seem to confirm a lot of people in their beliefs that nothing has changed and that everything is just like it was before. However, I think this is simply not true, even if this opinion is unpopular on this subforum.

I think people generally are being too anti-naïve (thinking any cleanness in cycling is an absolute impossibility), making them refuse to believe that the omertà is less pronounced than earlier, that most riders are generally disgusted by exposed dopers and that any anti-doping efforts work in the slightest.

It's only on the third parameter I tend to agree, however.

And I can't seem to recall any precedence of a rider admitting to doping (or at least having intended to do it), like Preidler did. The fact that he had such a blackened conscience that he needed to come forward instead of hoping that the storm would blow past him tells me that he knew that this was not something everybody else was doing.
I would agree to the bolded. I believe many people fear the embarrassment and the hit their own credibility and reputation would take if they were found to have wrongly believed someone was clean. Taking the opposite route and saying "they're all on it" places them in a comfortable position - they can never be proven wrong. An interesting phenomenon.
 
Re:

tobydawq said:
I know that these past revelations seem to confirm a lot of people in their beliefs that nothing has changed and that everything is just like it was before. However, I think this is simply not true, even if this opinion is unpopular on this subforum.

I think people generally are being to anti-naïve (thinking any cleanness in cycling is an absolute impossibility), making them refuse to believe that the omertà is less pronounced than earlier, that most riders are generally disgusted by exposed dopers and that any anti-doping efforts work in the slightest.

It's only on the third parameter I tend to agree, however.

And I can't seem to recall any precedence of a rider admitting to doping (or at least having intended to do it) without even being accused of doing anything wrong, like Preidler did. The fact that he had such a blackened conscience that he needed to come forward instead of hoping that the storm would blow past him tells me that he knew that this was not something everybody else was doing.
Maybe I have to take back a few things I wrote. The doping meassures nowadays most likely aren't as extreme as in the past as you'll get caught if you pump all EPO you can get into your body. Not saying EPO isn't used anymore, but surely the micro dosing everyone is talking about is less effective than, well, macro dosing. Therefore the advantages you get by doping aren't as big as they used to be which is why I believe you can be half competitive while being clean. Still, if you ever wanted prove that you can still dope without it being detected, this scandal is exactly that. And I definitely believe as long as you can dope without being caught, people will do it.
Btw, on the Preidler point, he himself claimed that one of the reasons why he made the step towards doping was that he claimed "you hear that many people do it anyway so why shouldn't you do it as well." Possibly he knew not everybody was doing it, but it sure doesn't sound like a lonely doper in a big ocean of clean cyclists.
 
Bavarianrider said:
Johannes Dürr has been arrested. I hope he really come clean know.
Let's face it. Dürr is a criminal mastermind. After he was caught, he got disowned by the Austrian Skiing Federation. He seeked revenge. Therefore, he contacted his former teammates Hauke and Baldauf and provided them a link to Dr. Schmidt in Erfurt. From then on, the plan was on track. He waited another two and a half years until the important world championship on home soil. Now was his time to shine. He contacted the authorities and they did their job. Revenge was done. Biggest damage possible.

James Dürr aka Johannes Moriarty. :D :geek:
 
Did he get arrested because he is sought after because of the 'spilling of beans' he did with ARD? Or is he arrested because the new investigation implicated him in doping (again) as well? Is the police simply looking for more answers and dots to connect and why not use him because he seems to be 'in the know?' Or was it Hauke, Baldauf, Schmidt or someone from the ÖSV that outed him?
 
BullsFan22 said:
Did he get arrested because he is sought after because of the 'spilling of beans' he did with ARD? Or is he arrested because the new investigation implicated him in doping (again) as well? Is the police simply looking for more answers and dots to connect and why not use him because he seems to be 'in the know?' Or was it Hauke, Baldauf, Schmidt or someone from the ÖSV that outed him?
Baldauf and Hauke apparently both stated that Dürr introduced them to Schmidt in 2016.
 
ppanther92 said:
BullsFan22 said:
Did he get arrested because he is sought after because of the 'spilling of beans' he did with ARD? Or is he arrested because the new investigation implicated him in doping (again) as well? Is the police simply looking for more answers and dots to connect and why not use him because he seems to be 'in the know?' Or was it Hauke, Baldauf, Schmidt or someone from the ÖSV that outed him?
Baldauf and Hauke apparently both stated that Dürr introduced them to Schmidt in 2016.
I think the only official reason given so far is that Dürr violated the Austrian Anti Doping law.

I just had a quick look at it, and the law includes the paragraph "Ein Verstoß gegen Anti-Doping-Regelungen liegt vor, wenn [...] Sportler oder deren Betreuungspersonen andere Sportler oder Betreuungspersonen bei Verstößen oder versuchten Verstößen gemäß Z 2 bis 9 durch Anleitung, Verschleierung oder Hilfstätigkeiten unterstützen", basically saying that supporting others in whatever way is a violation of the law. So it looks likely that Hauke's and Baldauf's allegations of introducing them to Schmidt is the reason for his arrest.
 
Re: Re:

Gigs_98 said:
tobydawq said:
I know that these past revelations seem to confirm a lot of people in their beliefs that nothing has changed and that everything is just like it was before. However, I think this is simply not true, even if this opinion is unpopular on this subforum.

I think people generally are being to anti-naïve (thinking any cleanness in cycling is an absolute impossibility), making them refuse to believe that the omertà is less pronounced than earlier, that most riders are generally disgusted by exposed dopers and that any anti-doping efforts work in the slightest.

It's only on the third parameter I tend to agree, however.

And I can't seem to recall any precedence of a rider admitting to doping (or at least having intended to do it) without even being accused of doing anything wrong, like Preidler did. The fact that he had such a blackened conscience that he needed to come forward instead of hoping that the storm would blow past him tells me that he knew that this was not something everybody else was doing.
There are reasons to be anti-naive.

Re epo/blood doping: there is no foolproof test. Even a 10% increase in hbmass is not necessarily flagged per Ashenden et al studies. Microdosing and cycles of extraction and reinfusion are used, at least. Call 4-7% hbmass boost working within a margin of safety. Still a substantial increase. But obviously not epo macrodosing 90s style.

Yeah, you climb slower than pantani but as long as you beat your rivals and/or do your designated job in races, well, job done.

Also it is not about oxygen vectors only any longer. Practices evolve. Asthma meds for a slight anabolic gain/recovery, TUEs, new stuff, etc.

All said, I think KP Kyrö of Lahti 2001 xc scandal fame is onto something when he clearly states that by his experience athletes do not trust the regulating bodies to do their job one bit. Not only is the door open for the ”innovatively” oriented athletes, teams etc to dope as a first strike, if you will, but also to those who distrust that the others will not do so and dope as it were defensively. A merrygoround it is.

The system burns and ostracizes small fish. Occasionally cops catch people. But the Big fish are always there at the business end of the races.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re:

tobydawq said:
I know that these past revelations seem to confirm a lot of people in their beliefs that nothing has changed and that everything is just like it was before. However, I think this is simply not true, even if this opinion is unpopular on this subforum.

I think people generally are being to anti-naïve (thinking any cleanness in cycling is an absolute impossibility), making them refuse to believe that the omertà is less pronounced than earlier, that most riders are generally disgusted by exposed dopers and that any anti-doping efforts work in the slightest.

It's only on the third parameter I tend to agree, however.

And I can't seem to recall any precedence of a rider admitting to doping (or at least having intended to do it) without even being accused of doing anything wrong, like Preidler did. The fact that he had such a blackened conscience that he needed to come forward instead of hoping that the storm would blow past him tells me that he knew that this was not something everybody else was doing.
Jérôme Chiotti
 
BullsFan22 said:
Yeah, that may be it as well. Landertinger involved as well?
I would not go as far yet. Hauke posted a video on facebook this summer where they were doing a training session in Ramsau together. But thats rather weak evidence.

Anyway, Eder today gave a radio station an interview in which he said that he got contacted about the doping clinic in Erfurt and immediately reported that. If so, things look not too good for th Austrian Skiing Federation.
 
there's an interview in the Kronen Zeitung today, where Baldauf auf Hauke specify Dürr's involvement:

Baldauf: "2016 traf ich Johannes Dürr erstmals seit dem Skandal um ihn wieder. Wir arbeiten beide beim Zoll im Wien und gingen manchmal miteinander trainieren. Dabei redeten wir natürlich auch über das Langlaufen und in der Folge auch darüber, dass die Leistungen von Max und mir stagnierten. Dürr erklärte mir, dass es ohne Doping nicht möglich sei an die Spitze zu kommen. Und dass uns sein Erfurter Arzt helfen könnte."

Hauke: "Dominik und ich hatten in der Folge diese Option ständig im Hinterkopf. Letztlich beschlossen wir, Kontakt zu ihm aufzunehmen."

___________________________________

Baldauf: "2016 was the first time I met Dürr again after the scandal. We both worked at the customs in Vienna and sometimes exercized together. Doing that, we obviously also talked about XC skiing, and subsequently also about the lack of results for Max and me. Dürr explained to me, that it wasn't possibly to reach the top without doping. And that his doctor in Erfurt could help with that."

Hauke: "On from then, Dominik and me always had this option in the back of our mind. Ultimatelly, we came to the decision to get in touch with him."


If this is all he did, I doubt there's much Dürr needs to worry about...

They also state, that only an idiot could get caught for blood doping. Drinking a glass of salt water after the competition is enough to cover it. Hauke was never tested anyway though. Baldauf once. I can't really see what time frame we are talking about though. It is mentioned that blood was taken in summer 2018 and reinjected at the start of the season, but not whether this was the first time or not.

Overall it's pretty much of a *** interview though. Both are very sorry, wanted to stop doping after the season anyway, blah blah blah. Hauke wants to become a doctor now and Baldauf a policeman. ;)
 

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