Doping in other sports?

[sniper]

Did you read it? He tries to play down the scandals surrounding Jamaica's sprinters lately. And in his big bull****ting speech he basically criticizes WADA for catching dopers. He only manages to make an *** of himself and athletics.


Sure. But then he should criticize the possible inadequate testing of other countries. The focus on Jamaica is completely justified when the dominating sprinter nation shows such terrible anti doping practices.

admittedly, i didn't read it. i'm sure that IAAF guy is a massive tool.

my point was/is: i have major problems with the general tendency in western media to single out doping in eastern europe, africa, and/or jamaica while pretending england, germany et al. are antidoping frontrunners.
i think doping in england, germany et al. (including methods to circumvent antidoping) is at a VERY advanced level.
much more advanced than in the 2nd/3rd world countries that are being singled out.

 

[martinvickers]

admittedly, i didn't read it. i'm sure that IAAF guy is a massive tool.

my point was/is: i have major problems with the general tendency in western media to single out doping in eastern europe, africa, and/or jamaica while pretending england, germany et al. are antidoping frontrunners.
i think doping in england, germany et al. (including methods to circumvent antidoping) is at a VERY advanced level.
much more advanced than in the 2nd/3rd world countries that are being singled out.

Why? What's the basis for this? Besides just wanting it to be true?

Look at Russia - piles AND piles of positives, despite a disfunctional Moscow lab - over 100 this year. Do they not have money in Russia? Is Russia not sophisticated at doping?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

The point being to have other athletes confessing.

When USA receveid the list of 4000 (?) American people having a swiss account, they did that kind of proposal, and eventually much more people paid their taxes!

Not sure we can draw a direct comparison. Tax evasion is a criminal offense in US and jail time is on the cards along with massive fines.

Some cooperation have spooked a few tax dodgers where both parties gets something out of it. The state gets additional income moving forward and the citizen avoids jail time and fines.

However I can't see the anti dope guys getting anything out of athletes "confessions", so still think the main result will be the exposure which can be used as a deterrent moving forward.

Happy if proven wrong.

 

[sniper]

Why? What's the basis for this? Besides just wanting it to be true?

Look at Russia - piles AND piles of positives, despite a disfunctional Moscow lab - over 100 this year. Do they not have money in Russia? Is Russia not sophisticated at doping?

good point, but i think politics play a major role here.
if wada were run by a russian, we might hear less about those russian positives.

i think england and geramny have their asses extremely well covered.
and the difference in mentality is obvious:
english, americans, germans, like few other people, understand the perception is reality rule.
others have more trouble with that.

just hunches, i should add, and like dazed'n confused, happy if proven wrong.

 

[martinvickers]

good point, but i think politics play a major role here.
if wada were run by a russian, we might hear less about those russian positives.

i think england and geramny have their asses extremely well covered.
and the difference in mentality is obvious:
english, americans, germans, like few other people, understand the perception is reality rule.
others have more trouble with that.

just hunches, i should add, and like dazed'n confused, happy if proven wrong.

Absolutely fair dues, Sniper; sorry for snapping.

I actually find it hard to express how much i hate dopers and doping. I couldn't give a sh*t what flag they fly. And because I'm pretty draconian in my views on what should happen proven dopers (I argued on radio a few years back for criminal offences for doping athletes and coaches as a form both of fraud and drug trafficking), i tend to not take proving it as lightly as i might. Probably the lawyer in me.

But that's not your fault, is it, so my apologies again.

I personally think doping is not universally spread - there are pockets of systematic doping in different countries and different sports, while every country and every sport will have some gits.

for example, I'm sure steroids are abused just as much by big strong men in England as in Ukraine - but in the Ukraine, these men tend to end up tossing hammers, discii and the like - in England they turn up at scrums and line outs, and play the balls (rugby union and rugby league). I tend to worry slightly less about GB throwers and ukrainian rugby players, while entirely accepting there's probably plenty of doping even there

And I also think that a long legacy of doping in some of the big former commie countries cannot be good for the health of anti-doping in those places - race ain't got nothing to do with it in that sense, it's purely cultural.

 

[sniper]

for example, I'm sure steroids are abused just as much by big strong men in England as in Ukraine - but in the Ukraine, these men tend to end up tossing hammers, discii and the like - in England they turn up at scrums and line outs, and play the balls (rugby union and rugby league). I tend to worry slightly less about GB throwers and ukrainian rugby players, while entirely accepting there's probably plenty of doping even there

good nuance, agree fully.

 

[Catwhoorg]

I have said before anyone who thinks rugby (both league and union) doesn't have a doping problem with anabolic agents have their head in the sands.

The large number of positives caught in the top nations literally is just a tip of the iceberg.

 

[martinvickers]

I have said before anyone who thinks rugby (both league and union) doesn't have a doping problem with anabolic agents have their head in the sands.

The large number of positives caught in the top nations literally is just a tip of the iceberg.

Team sports generally are under tested, at least partly because of the classic fallacy that doping only really helps 'pure' athletic pursuits involving measurement of speed or power.

In rugby esp, however, the game is on the verge of being ruined by the glut of giants produced - where centres are the size of props, but with the mobility of wings, where back rowers are inhuman, and injuries are piling up.

 

[mikeoneill]

the ioc is retesting now


how many positives will they fish out compared to the hundreds detected by labs?

not many as it would cause a crisis in the sport


a few dozen of those BAD eastern europeans again i'll wager...

 

[poupou]

Doping without being caught is not a matter of country, it's all about money.
The best Kenyans and best Jamaicans have access to "safe" doping program and products because they have contacted, or more likely have been contacted by, the likes of Ferrari. No surprise that some European athletes are going in Kenya to train "harder" those years.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Documentary on Amateur doping and Drug dealers in the Netherlands. A few months old, but I haven't seen it on here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBnuWeNQU94

 

[Bicycle]

Doping without being caught is not a matter of country, it's all about money.
The best Kenyans and best Jamaicans have access to "safe" doping program and products because they have contacted, or more likely have been contacted by, the likes of Ferrari. No surprise that some European athletes are going in Kenya to train "harder" those years.

It does help though if your home country doesn't test.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

It does help though if your home country doesn't test.

This, especially for anabolics.

 

[zebedee]

Performance enhancing effect of cocaine spreads into TV cookery.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/27/nigella-lawson-personal-assistants-trial

I quietly bet she's not the only one.

This TV cookery lark needs proper regulation. I can just imagine what Heston could get up to.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

MMA heavyweight Shane Del Rosario suffers heart attack at 30, even if he survives he will be brain damaged.

http://m.espn.go.com/extra/mma/story?storyId=10050516&src=desktop

It's not certain that he was a steroid user but to look at the pictures of him it would be surprising if he wasn't.

It might sound callous but I expect this will be the first of many serious health issues early in life for competitors in a sport that's testing in its current set up makes the WWE's wellness programme look rigorous.

 

[sniper]

look how muscular the guy is around the shoulders and arms, yet so skinny.
AICAR? or is he weightlifting a lot?

 

[blackcat]

Performance enhancing effect of cocaine spreads into TV cookery.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/27/nigella-lawson-personal-assistants-trial

I quietly bet she's not the only one.

This TV cookery lark needs proper regulation. I can just imagine what Heston could get up to.

blumenthal freebases

 

[McLovin]

I give you a link to an interview with a romanian doctor. In the begining he speaks more about romanian first league (football) and then sports in general.
I hope you can find a good online translator.
http://www.prosport.ro/sport-life/s...ti-ce-spune-despre-messi-sau-ronaldo-11739094
Some interesting quotes: (sorry if the transalation is not the best one)

"..."Dude, it's wrong!" I am obliged to advice to not jeopardize their health. For example, an athlete comes and says: "Doctor, I am a second and a half of the world record! Whatever I do, I can not move faster! I think this is my limit biological. If you do not help me, 15 years back are useless work "to get rid of him, I say, 'Let Assume that there is a way to beat the record and show it to you, I do not go with you on it , the law forbids me, but you lose 10 years of life for this. You agree to pay this price for a medal? " "95 percent of them do not even think, respond immediately "Yes!". To wake him tell they do not require 65 to 75 years, that those not interested in you, you have diapers that you keep the prostate, you do not have teeth in the mouth. I ask from 35-45 years, when it still vigorous in power. "You lose them!». (he come back to present) What do you think!? He has no hesitation! The five who were hesitant they were because they fear being caught in doping controls."

"Latest stuff related to genetic engineering. It directly inhibits are inserted into the body by a virus or bacteria and blocks portions of information or exacerbate metabolic activity of enzymes that generate energy chain."

"Right now, there are at least two substances that can not be detected. One can not be detected at all, the other one they say they can locate it."

About 'the first substance' : "The Chinesse produced it for their army, and when they tested it, their scientists had said it was not good. So they launched on the market. Studded sporting world. The best medicine made ​​from this substance it's the Chinese one. Beats anything on the market. Doesn't make antibodies but does many things. Do you watch the Olympics in Beijing, where they were only 25 swimming world records and 159 Olympic records 66 continental records. Let me know if you know any other competition in the world, in just a few days, fell so many records. If these are the effects of a substance refused by Chinesse, I, as a specialist, the worst in the schoolyard, I wonder how the substance shows that the Chinese army was finally satisfied."

'Perhaps in a few years, will compete in competitions, in addition to athletes, also the pharmaceutical companies. As in Formula 1, where there are constructors' championship'

"From the biochemical point of view, high-performance sport is placed between pathology and death. That's why athletes dying on the field"

Last year, in the 78th minute of the match Real Madrid - Atletico Madrid 2-0 Cristiano Ronaldo was stolen by the match match and not realized, and made a 96-meter sprint in 10 seconds. AAAA? Do you think at something? The specialists calculated and said: "We have no sprinters to take out such a time! How can this tired, 78 minutes exhausting run it? "This was very clear, as Petre Roman (a romaninan politician about comunist) said in 1990:" There have been unmasked! ». That happened to Ronaldo, he is unmasked! Usually you get signs from the sidelines: "Boy, stay easier!" Look at Messi! He is a growth hormone product. What is the difference between Messi, who has undergone a formal program with hormones, and Armstrong, who did what he did with the team? To me, there's no difference."

 

[sniper]

great stuff, mclovin, thanks.
good to hear these comments from an insider.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Last year, in the 78th minute of the match Real Madrid - Atletico Madrid 2-0 Cristiano Ronaldo was stolen by the match match and not realized, and made a 96-meter sprint in 10 seconds. AAAA? Do you think at something? The specialists calculated and said: "We have no sprinters to take out such a time! How can this tired, 78 minutes exhausting run it?."

Thank you McLovin!

Interesting that he mentions the two undetectable substances, I remember one of the leading sprint coaches said at the time Powell and Gay got busted said that there were two steroids on the market that WADA knew nothing about, will look for it later.

 

[sniper]

Thank you McLovin!

No doubt a "boring" analysis to call out Cristiano Ronaldo according to Mr M Vickers. Obviously jealous.

Interesting that he mentions the two undetectable substances, I remember one of the leading sprint coaches said at the time Powell and Gay got busted said that there were two steroids on the market that WADA knew nothing about, will look for it later.

the second substance, the one they can apparently "locate", could be AICAR...
AICAR has been traceable for some time now, but WADA hasn't been able yet to develop an accurate test.

 

[darwin553]

Just trying to think who was sanctioned by ASADA with a two year ban?

That's right - multiple Australian champ in the 100m Josh Ross for missing 3 doping tests in a calendar year.

He is submitting an appeal to CAS on the basis that he had changed his address and ASADA obv didn't have it and were sending it to the wrong place which resulted in him not getting notice of when the tests were to take place.

I tell you that his case doesn't look strong given that he ought to know the doping testing rules that he is to be tested 3 times a year and missing them because of not getting sufficient notice doesn't really wash with me given that a reasonable athlete would make contact with Athletics Australia or ASADA to obtain information as to when he needed to take a test.

One test missed he might be able to get away with that defence but not 3.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/athleti...an-for-missing-drug-tests-20131205-2yub9.html

 

[martinvickers]

Just trying to think who was sanctioned by ASADA with a two year ban?

That's right - multiple Australian champ in the 100m Josh Ross for missing 3 doping tests in a calendar year.

He is submitting an appeal to CAS on the basis that he had changed his address and ASADA obv didn't have it and were sending it to the wrong place which resulted in him not getting notice of when the tests were to take place.

I tell you that his case doesn't look strong given that he ought to know the doping testing rules that he is to be tested 3 times a year and missing them because of not getting sufficient notice doesn't really wash with me given that a reasonable athlete would make contact with Athletics Australia or ASADA to obtain information as to when he needed to take a test.

One test missed he might be able to get away with that defence but not 3.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/athleti...an-for-missing-drug-tests-20131205-2yub9.html

Why does he need notice at all - surely he just needs to be where he said he's be for the hour window?

I'm not saying one way or the other whether he's crooked or just very careless, because I haven't a clue and don't really know the guy, but I don't understand the 'notice' point.

Obviously if he did inform ASADA of a move and they cocked up, that's not his fault, but I don't see a suggestion that's the problem.

 

[martinvickers]

look how muscular the guy is around the shoulders and arms, yet so skinny.
AICAR? or is he weightlifting a lot?

I'm vaguely sure (oxymoron, I know) Salazar said he was doing weights work. Made a big thing that 'early mo' lacked strength,

 

[proffate]

MMA heavyweight Shane Del Rosario suffers heart attack at 30, even if he survives he will be brain damaged.

http://m.espn.go.com/extra/mma/story?storyId=10050516&src=desktop

It's not certain that he was a steroid user but to look at the pictures of him it would be surprising if he wasn't.

It might sound callous but I expect this will be the first of many serious health issues early in life for competitors in a sport that's testing in its current set up makes the WWE's wellness programme look rigorous.

Really? This screams "roids" to you?