Doping in other sports?

[Jack (6 ch)]

The correct pie chart, ideally, would be adjusted to weight for the number of professional participants in each sport?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Absolutely, knowing how many pros compete in each would be important. Also it would be nice to split the section for skiing between Alpine, XC and jumping, since it would appear to be all FIS sports in one (so I presume it's using figures from sports governing bodies as biathlon, regulated by IBU, is split out).

In terms of numbers of professional participants, I'd hazard a guess at biathlon, triathlon, rowing, skating (speed and figure combined, presumably) and aquatics being among the better represented (and skiing depending on the above). The least impressive bearing in mind the number of participants would be football, tennis, basketball and ice hockey.

The other question is, bearing in mind there's no "soccer", is "football" there to mean "association football"? I presume it is, as they mention "ice hockey", a terminology unnecessary in North America as that is to them the conventional form of hockey, which suggests this is a European source. Would the total for "football" include other forms of football, e.g. NFL, AFL or Gaelic football? How about baseball, which doesn't appear? Did they simply refuse to advise their test figures?

 

[martinvickers]

Absolutely, knowing how many pros compete in each would be important. Also it would be nice to split the section for skiing between Alpine, XC and jumping, since it would appear to be all FIS sports in one (so I presume it's using figures from sports governing bodies as biathlon, regulated by IBU, is split out).

In terms of numbers of professional participants, I'd hazard a guess at biathlon, triathlon, rowing, skating (speed and figure combined, presumably) and aquatics being among the better represented (and skiing depending on the above). The least impressive bearing in mind the number of participants would be football, tennis, basketball and ice hockey.

The other question is, bearing in mind there's no "soccer", is "football" there to mean "association football"? I presume it is, as they mention "ice hockey", a terminology unnecessary in North America as that is to them the conventional form of hockey, which suggests this is a European source. Would the total for "football" include other forms of football, e.g. NFL, AFL or Gaelic football? How about baseball, which doesn't appear? Did they simply refuse to advise their test figures?

My understanding (open to correction) is that all these sports are Olympic sports - which given WADA would make sense. For IOC purposes, football is FIFA, and for that matter Rugby is IRB, not RLIF. American football was only recognised very recently. CFL, AFL and GAA not at all.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Your understanding would appear sensible and account for the omissions.

 

[gooner]

Absolutely, knowing how many pros compete in each would be important. Also it would be nice to split the section for skiing between Alpine, XC and jumping, since it would appear to be all FIS sports in one (so I presume it's using figures from sports governing bodies as biathlon, regulated by IBU, is split out).

In terms of numbers of professional participants, I'd hazard a guess at biathlon, triathlon, rowing, skating (speed and figure combined, presumably) and aquatics being among the better represented (and skiing depending on the above). The least impressive bearing in mind the number of participants would be football, tennis, basketball and ice hockey.

The other question is, bearing in mind there's no "soccer", is "football" there to mean "association football"? I presume it is, as they mention "ice hockey", a terminology unnecessary in North America as that is to them the conventional form of hockey, which suggests this is a European source. Would the total for "football" include other forms of football, e.g. NFL, AFL or Gaelic football? How about baseball, which doesn't appear? Did they simply refuse to advise their test figures?

My understanding (open to correction) is that all these sports are Olympic sports - which given WADA would make sense. For IOC purposes, football is FIFA, and for that matter Rugby is IRB, not RLIF. American football was only recognised very recently. CFL, AFL and GAA not at all.

GAA is non existent. There was just 87 tests last year combining football and hurling. Remember there are over 1500 players at inter county level over the two codes.

 

[TheGame]

from @sportingintel:

Distribution per sport of global anti-doping blood tests in 2012:

The graph only represents samples taken for the biological passport
In Olympic sports.

It does not represent total testing in each sport.

Page 138 of the wada report. This is from a sixth month old tweet by SI that was corrected at the time.

 

[manafana]

who would have known that weightlifters would do drugs too, lots of asian ones have tested positive recently.

 

[Arnout]

Dutch speed skater Sjoerd Huisman died yesterday night, heart attack, age 27. He was one of the best riders in that sport, according to our national news outlet (although I have never heard of him), but its mainly a national sport, wouldn't surprise me if testing was irregular, if ever.

 

[Cloxxki]

Dutch speed skater Sjoerd Huisman died yesterday night, heart attack, age 27. He was one of the best riders in that sport, according to our national news outlet (although I have never heard of him), but its mainly a national sport, wouldn't surprise me if testing was irregular, if ever.

Will there be an extensive autopsy as to the real cause? In the case off cyclists in their 20's, the family seems to have prevented it most of the times. Skating for sure is a family sport. A Dutch kid aged 15 was drugged by his dad/coach (presented in wrting by his technical counsel characterized as a potential murderer) with testosterone, and fought a legal battle over his 13y/o daughter being dope tested against his wishes. It's a gem of a sports scene.

I was recently told by an insider that Gianni Romme was known in the sport for missing quite a few out of competition tests in his day. So there was (is?) testing, it was just not to be taken seriously. He went from regional skater to world record breaker basically overnight.

 

[DirtyWorks]

The graph only represents samples taken for the biological passport
In Olympic sports.

It does not represent total testing in each sport.

Page 138 of the wada report. This is from a sixth month old tweet by SI that was corrected at the time.

More importantly, as the recent article I posted about Jamaica's actual use of anti-doping, the point is not to catch athletes. In Jamaica's case and likely many others, never test positive outside the country. As Martin recently corrected me, some countries even screwed that up!

A charitable summary: The point of formalized testing is to maintain the appearance of sport integrity while trying to keep athletes from killing themselves doping while breaking records.

 

[Arnout]

Will there be an extensive autopsy as to the real cause? In the case off cyclists in their 20's, the family seems to have prevented it most of the times. Skating for sure is a family sport. A Dutch kid aged 15 was drugged by his dad/coach (presented in wrting by his technical counsel characterized as a potential murderer) with testosterone, and fought a legal battle over his 13y/o daughter being dope tested against his wishes. It's a gem of a sports scene.

I was recently told by an insider that Gianni Romme was known in the sport for missing quite a few out of competition tests in his day. So there was (is?) testing, it was just not to be taken seriously. He went from regional skater to world record breaker basically overnight.

Yeah, I don't trust speed skating one bit. However, I don't care about it either, it's probably the most boring sport in the world. Riding circles, no matter where they go. It's even worse than track cycling, as there are less race modes and most of it is only two on the ice at any given point, so basically time trial every single time.

Anyway, I read that Huisman had suffered from heart problems before, so maybe the cause for his tragic death was a natural one after all. I don't expect an investigation though, there will be no international pressure and I don't see anyone that could benefit (apart from other skaters, but who cares about them).

 

[iejeecee]

Yeah, I don't trust speed skating one bit. However, I don't care about it either, it's probably the most boring sport in the world. Riding circles, no matter where they go. It's even worse than track cycling, as there are less race modes and most of it is only two on the ice at any given point, so basically time trial every single time.

Anyway, I read that Huisman had suffered from heart problems before, so maybe the cause for his tragic death was a natural one after all. I don't expect an investigation though, there will be no international pressure and I don't see anyone that could benefit (apart from other skaters, but who cares about them).

Sjoerd Huisman was a marathon rider, not a "long track" indoor specialist. Marathon skating is comparable to cycling, they ride in a peleton, outside vs the elements (if possible) and distances up to 200km. Huisman (a Cavendish type sprinter among the endurance athletes) was the Dutch national champion of 2009.

It wouldn't surprise me if they take epo like smarties, and this tragic death is doping related.

 

[neineinei]

Yeah, I don't trust speed skating one bit. However, I don't care about it either, it's probably the most boring sport in the world. Riding circles, no matter where they go. It's even worse than track cycling, as there are less race modes and most of it is only two on the ice at any given point, so basically time trial every single time.

Anyway, I read that Huisman had suffered from heart problems before, so maybe the cause for his tragic death was a natural one after all. I don't expect an investigation though, there will be no international pressure and I don't see anyone that could benefit (apart from other skaters, but who cares about them).

The TV coverage of speed skating is an awful lot better than that of cycling TT. Radio coverage of speed skating from the 50's was better than today's TV coverage of TT's. For some other reason cycling broadcasters can't keep track of time. They can in biathlon and cross country skiing, but not in cycling.

 

[mikeoneill]

big poll going on over at letsrun lol

http://www.letsrun.com/

 

[gooner]

Floyd Mayweather Sr. at it again.

http://www.boxingscene.com/mayweather-sr-if-pacquiao-clean-***-gets-whooped--73260?

 

[The Hitch]

big poll going on over at letsrun lol

http://www.letsrun.com/

Beautiful.

Could do with a "select all" option at the top for the clinic .

Would be better also imo with more than 2 options.

With some, eg Bolt or Flo Jo, there is no doubt about it. With others I'm looking at the date (eg records during the height of the epo era) or date and nationality (eg records by Eastern Block nations during the 80's, which I never saw so cant be 100% sure on, and am basing my info on general info rather than specific info about that record). Others i can make a case why i would be suspicious of- because of what i know about doping, but am not in the position to dismiss that performance without having seen it and without knowing much about that particular athlete, eg with Aries Merritt or Paula Radcliffe because she spoke out.

Anyway with Bolt, I thought id look at how other non caught athletes compare in the 100m to him.

http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_100ok.htm -

who is the first person after Bolt on this list to not test positive or be caught in Balco? If im not wrong you have to go down to the 9th athlete and 57th best time to find someone else who simply fits those 2 catergories and its not like a guy who won the 100m in the golden age of doping is above suspicion.

 

[mikeoneill]

I'd be surprised if any more than 1 or 2 at most are clean records

and maybe none

all the women's are prob doped
radcliffe maybe hmm

Bekele. obvious epo
guerrouj ..name your poison
rudisha maybe hmm
johnson .. the one that got away
bolt.. obvious doper

only 2 possible clean but I wouldn't put money on it

 

[Briant_Gumble]

I followed Hitch's method, EPO era, eastern bloc etc. That said there weren't many I ticked as clean.

 

[proffate]

why would any of those be clean? Do you think (a) dopers never bothered with that particular discipline or (b) a clean runner beat all the doped ones in that particular discipline?

I think we've seen that there's no competition too insignificant to attract dopers, which rules out (a), and since I'm not part of British Cycling I don't believe (b) to be possible.

 

[mikeoneill]

the marathon is a puzzle
so many east africans running fast times and no one at the very top ever busted except maybe kisorio at HM

renata canova insists the top east africans are clean

easy to beat the epo test at the time Paula radcliffe was running and she was always away in albuquerque and those places

rudisha looks like he could be world class clean but I wouldn't bet on it

 

[More Strides than Rides]

renata canova insists the top east africans are clean

I can't help re emphasizing this, but more than insisting they're clean, he insists epo doesn't work on elite east african runners. He says that they are so good it wouldn't add anything (and, in fact make them burn through their fuel reserves too fast).

Imagine the uproar if Brailsford said that sky has made so many marginal gains that epo would make them worse. It boggles my mind the way Canova is allowed anywhere near professional athletes.



Also, return to that poll in a few days, when it is said to feature top American and current world stars.

 

[mikeoneill]

loll ...
the results of the poll will be absolutely worthless

letsrun is a bunch of crazies and halfwits

it's more what the poll says about letsrun posters..

renato also claims blood doping of Italian athletes didn't work very well.. I'm not sure conconi agrees

in his defence none of the very elites have ever failed a test

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I haven't read Epstein's book so I don't know if this is old news, but this obituary of Finnish cross-country skier Eero Mäntyranta is quite interesting, and in amid the discussion of Mäntyranta as a person as you might expect from an obituary, there is anecdotal evidence of experiments done to show that Mäntyranta had a genetic condition that made him hypersensitive to EPO (of course his career was many, many moons before the synthetic EPO in sport era so perhaps that aspect shouldn't be lingered on so much as that this experiment could give some insight as to why EPO doesn't affect all competitors equally and give scientists some indicators on what makes someone a super-responder).

It also makes you wonder, how good would Mäntyranta have been had he been around in the 90s?

 

[The Hitch]

I can't help re emphasizing this, but more than insisting they're clean, he insists epo doesn't work on elite east african runners. He says that they are so good it wouldn't add anything (and, in fact make them burn through their fuel reserves too fast).

Imagine the uproar if Brailsford said that sky has made so many marginal gains that epo would make them worse. It boggles my mind the way Canova is allowed anywhere near professional athletes.
.

renato also claims blood doping of Italian athletes didn't work very well.. I'm not sure conconi agrees

Lulz. We've had some funny things in cycling, but sometimes I forget things can be just as ridiculous outside it.

 

[olopaine]

I haven't read Epstein's book so I don't know if this is old news, but this obituary of Finnish cross-country skier Eero Mäntyranta is quite interesting, and in amid the discussion of Mäntyranta as a person as you might expect from an obituary, there is anecdotal evidence of experiments done to show that Mäntyranta had a genetic condition that made him hypersensitive to EPO (of course his career was many, many moons before the synthetic EPO in sport era so perhaps that aspect shouldn't be lingered on so much as that this experiment could give some insight as to why EPO doesn't affect all competitors equally and give scientists some indicators on what makes someone a super-responder).

It also makes you wonder, how good would Mäntyranta have been had he been around in the 90s?

Mäntyranta's nephew Pertti Teurajärvi was an olympic athlete in the 70's & 80's, with modest results compared to Mäntyranta. He probably carried the gene though, as it is a dominant gene in the family and as common in men and women.

Mäntyranta's gene mutation and hemoglobin levels come up every now and then when doping is discussed in Finnish media. One question that came up after FIS introduced the 170 Hb level limit, is how FIS would have treated an athlete with a hemoglobin level naturally higher than that.