Doping in Soccer/Football

[sniper]

the muscles on ronaldo can't possibly be just from the fitness room.
with the non-physical training these guys have to do, he'd have too little time, me thinks, to achieve that naturally in the fitness room.

 

[The Hitch]

Pretty sure you need a huge talent along with doping to make it in football.

Otherwise, why would they spend hundreds of millions on players if they could just pick up a couple of kids off the streets in Brazil and give them to dr Fuentes instead.

Ronaldo is pretty obvious though I think. He is never injured and plays like 50 matches every year along with his crazy speed, strength etc.

You could say the same in cycling. Why dope say Frank Schleck to 60% when you can do it with Pantani

In other words, you seem to be suggesting that with doping everything should be equal unless its a technique sport. Its not. bolt runs faster than gay and powell and gatlin and everyone. Even with dope there are huge discrepancies. And from there in a multi trillion buck industry like football, you spend the hundred million on the guy who is best.

(I use Pantani cos Football is clearly in the 90's still when it comes to doping)

 

[the sceptic]

Well I didnt say that everything should be equal. Im just saying that talent is more important in football than in cycling.

In cycling, nobodies becomes the best riders in the world all the time. That never happens in football.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

the muscles on ronaldo can't possibly be just from the fitness room.
with the non-physical training these guys have to do, he'd have too little time, me thinks, to achieve that naturally in the fitness room.

 

[sniper]

Well I didnt say that everything should be equal. Im just saying that talent is more important in football than in cycling.

In cycling, nobodies becomes the best riders in the world all the time. That never happens in football.

Actually it does.
Ronaldo.
he,s not very technical you know.
ibrahimovic, for instance, is a way better technician, and there are many, many soccer players out there with a better, more stylish technique than ronaldo.
he,s just a physical freak and mentally very strong, but realky not a huge talent in terms of technique, imo

 

[gooner]

Alejandro Valverde destroyed all comers at that kind of age. He was seen as a guaranteed star. He doped. He doped in a sport where there is far less money, and where there is far stricter testing. Cristiano Ronaldo could have all the talent in the world, but none of it will have any bearing on whether or not he's doping.

That's fair enough but I was responding to the poster who brought up his pace with regards to tonight's goals. Even at 18 his pace was a big advantage over more developed seasoned professionals. Just like I seen in a pre-season game for Sporting Lisbon against United back in 2003 when the United players told Ferguson to close the deal after his performance. A couple of weeks later he was a United player and a month after that he did similar to a very quick 23 year old full back in Ashley Cole. His pace was frightening. The big difference between now and back then is that he was a more rigid winger in his Lisbon and early United days.

It doesn't mean he's not doping but it can't change the fact he is naturally quicker over his rivals. It's the same with Theo Walcott who I first saw at 16 in the FA youth cup for Southampton. I remember his league debut a few months later and his pace was the stand out feature. He rans rings around the Leeds defence mainly by utilsing his pace shortly afterwards and Paul Butler, the Leeds captain was raving about him. At 17 he was the quickest player at Arsenal even when Henry was there. Aaron Lennon is another when he was at Leeds as a young player.

Not everything a player shows should just be attributed to doping.

 

[The Hitch]

Well I didnt say that everything should be equal. Im just saying that talent is more important in football than in cycling.

In cycling, nobodies becomes the best riders in the world all the time. That never happens in football.

Luca Toni went from Serie B player up until 25 to main striker of the team that won the world cup at 28. That Paulinho guy who Totentham paid god knows how much for I hear was playing in Brazilian sunday leagues not so very long ago. I think Lewandowski too who is like the 5th best player in the world atm was only in Lech Poznan at 22 yo and I can tell you Lech Poznan i think maradona could still get into that team.

Im sure gooner has more and better examples.

Not everything a player shows should just be attributed to doping.

The point the OP was making was how important physical attributes are in football, so the, Lahm was it,- oh footballers wouldnt dope cos its all about skill wouldnt work.

Fuentes told Hamilton that Footballers take way more than cyclists. **** Pound says he doesnt trust the sport. Testing is ****. I can understand people saying its possible to be the best in cycling in 2013 with all the testing and all but in the kind of en environment football is in, it doesn't matter how much of a physical freak you are, Jesse Ownes Golliath, you will not be the best at any physical attribute without doping. The dopers will naturally rise to the top.

 

[gooner]

Luca Toni went from Serie B player up until 25 to main striker of the team that won the world cup at 28. That Paulinho guy who Totentham paid god knows how much for I hear was playing in Brazilian sunday leagues not so very long ago. I think Lewandowski too who is like the 5th best player in the world atm was only in Lech Poznan at 22 yo and I can tell you Lech Poznan i think maradona could still get into that team.

Im sure gooner has more and better examples.

Good examples. Interesting on Lewandowski as I was watching our game tonight against Poland, the commentator said he was in the 3rd division in Poland.

Ricky Lambert who is now an England international is another one.

The point the OP was making was how important physical attributes are in football, so the, Lahm was it,- oh footballers wouldnt dope cos its all about skill wouldnt work.

Fuentes told Hamilton that Footballers take way more than cyclists. **** Pound says he doesnt trust the sport. Testing is ****. I can understand people saying its possible to be the best in cycling in 2013 with all the testing and all but in the kind of en environment football is in, it doesn't matter how much of a physical freak you are, Jesse Ownes Golliath, you will not be the best at any physical attribute without doping. The dopers will naturally rise to the top.

Agree totally.

Just on the Fuentes point, it was when Walsh interviewed Hamilton that he said Del Moral told him cyclists take nothing in comparison to footballers. I don't think that was Fuentes.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Luca Toni went from Serie B player up until 25 to main striker of the team that won the world cup at 28. That Paulinho guy who Totentham paid god knows how much for I hear was playing in Brazilian sunday leagues not so very long ago. I think Lewandowski too who is like the 5th best player in the world atm was only in Lech Poznan at 22 yo and I can tell you Lech Poznan i think maradona could still get into that team.

Drogba is another one, was playing in the French second division at 26 apparently cleaned up his diet and soon after became one of the best players in the champions league.

 

[martinvickers]

Remember Cristiano's header against Man Utd. In the champions league last year, comparable vertical jump to NBA players.

Most obvious doper, IMO.

That's just the same old "he's the best so he dopes" fallacy again. Boring.

He may well dope, but he's by no distance the most obvious doper from Man utd. That's giggs, patently.

 

[whittashau]

The comparison is stupid though. A huge improvement in a footballers level later in their career will more often than not be down to the mental side of things. Sure, being able to run a little faster, or longer might help somewhat, but no amount of drugs can make a average footballer good. Especially if that footballer bases their game around their technical qualities.

A cyclist on the other-hand...I'm not so sure

And I'm no way implying that doping in football isn't an issue, because I'm sure it is. I'm just saying that doping didn't make Luca Toni go from a average Serie B striker to a world cup winner. It was new-found confidence and self believe etc

A clash between two teams of similar quality, one team of dopers vs a team of clean players. That's where doping would make a difference in football

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Was Germany's 'Miracle of Berne' cooked up in a lab?

Brylcreem? Check. Dubbin? Check. Liniment? Check. Amphetamines? Check. Reading Sid Lowe's Fear and Loathing in La Liga this week just as the Mighty Magyars mark the 60th anniversary of their 6-3 demolition of England at Wembley, one of the book's many remarkable stories comes to mind.

A year after trouncing England, that extraordinary Hungary side lost the 1954 World Cup final in Berne to West Germany in strange circumstances. Lowe spoke to the son of Zoltan Czibor, who played for Barcelona and for Hungary in the final.

"My dad told me that at half-time and with Hungary winning 2-0 the Germans took this drink that they used to give to the pilots who flew Stukas in the war so that they wouldn't feel fear," he said. "Hungary had beaten Germany 8-3 in the group. But the Germans came out for the second half flying. Some of them didn't know their own names."

Earlier this year, findings by Berlin's Humboldt University for Germany's Federal Institute of Sport Science supported the idea that the 1954 World Cup-winning team used the methamphetamine Pervitin.

The Germans are not alone in terms of the trickle of revelations questioning football's so-called age of innocence. In August, 1970s Dutch international Johnny Rep revealed that taking an amphetamine pill before a game was not unusual. And a new book published in the Netherlands – Guido Derksen's Voetbal Mysteries – also suggests the practice was commonplace.

The idea of doping in football prior to it being flooded with money is fascinating. And with every revelation, there is one question that remains: what were England up to while all this was taking place?

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...aturdays-derby-against-liverpool-8950451.html

 

[EnacheV]

The comparison is stupid though. A huge improvement in a footballers level later in their career will more often than not be down to the mental side of things. Sure, being able to run a little faster, or longer might help somewhat, but no amount of drugs can make a average footballer good. Especially if that footballer bases their game around their technical qualities.

A cyclist on the other-hand...I'm not so sure

And I'm no way implying that doping in football isn't an issue, because I'm sure it is. I'm just saying that doping didn't make Luca Toni go from a average Serie B striker to a world cup winner. It was new-found confidence and self believe etc

A clash between two teams of similar quality, one team of dopers vs a team of clean players. That's where doping would make a difference in football

sorry but this is lol

i play football

if messi is tired and im not he will score exactly 0 goals in 1000 minutes if i mark him.

body condition is extremely important in football.

 

[whittashau]

sorry but this is lol

i play football

if messi is tired and im not he will score exactly 0 goals in 1000 minutes if i mark him.

body condition is extremely important in football.

Err, where did I say that body condition isn't important? And I also play football and I'm 6'3 and rather fit, so I know what it's like to have a physical advantage.

You make it sound like a huge football club couldn't make a player super-fit without doping? The question is how much fitter can a club make it players with doping. The super fit vs the ultra-fit.

I have no doubt that Barca's tinkering played a huge part in Messi not being such a midget and making him physically capable of playing at the highest level far easier and earlier, but no amount of doping made him capable of dribbling up field as if the ball was stuck to his feet. No amount of doping makes him able to finish with such composure.

He has copious amounts of natural talent. He would never have been a bad footballer regardless of what Barca has or hasn't feed him over the years. He would have likely matured far slower and been far less robust on the ball, but his technical qualities would always has separated him from the opposition.


The most alarming thing about Messi/Barcelona is the fact that he almost never gets injured and always recovers quicker than expected

However, what I'm saying is that Messi is no Chris Froome. He had alien like qualities before Barca tinkered with him

Edit - A tired Messi won't score against a fresh you for 1000 minutes? Perhaps the most delusional thing I've ever heard on the internet. Congrats

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Will we get into into "will messi able to do it on a cold night at stoke"

 

[The Hitch]

s by no distance the most obvious doper from Man utd. That's giggs, patently.

lol. So "where is the proof" only applies when you feel like.

After years of going for the throat of anyone who would dare accuse the likes of froome wiggins, bolt, tyson gay of doping, because they hadn't failed a test, even of accusing people who did so of racism, for you to just go out there and accuse someone with absolutely nothing against their name of being a doper.

Wow.

Just wow.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Hitch, mind your tantrums and tone will be coming.

 

[The Hitch]

Hitch, mind your tantrums and tone will be coming.

Apologies zammo, I just have a low tolerance for hypocrisy.

 

[the sceptic]

lol. So "where is the proof" only applies when you feel like.

After years of going for the throat of anyone who would dare accuse the likes of froome wiggins, bolt, tyson gay of doping, because they hadn't failed a test, even of accusing people who did so of racism, for you to just go out there and accuse someone with absolutely nothing against their name of being a doper.

Wow.

Just wow.

Im shocked too. I thought we needed a mountain of evidence and links to accuse brits of doping.

I am looking forward to see Martins case, maybe it will convince me.

Martin, do you have any evidence that Giggs is doping?

 

[Briant_Gumble]

The comparison is stupid though. A huge improvement in a footballers level later in their career will more often than not be down to the mental side of things. Sure, being able to run a little faster, or longer might help somewhat, but no amount of drugs can make a average footballer good. Especially if that footballer bases their game around their technical qualities.

We're talking about extremely dramatic improvements in players form in a sport where doping is prevalent

I expect these players have everything than can do to improve dialed in but doping is very effective and very possible to implement.

 

[attila]

As I recall, the reason Messi ended up at Barca is due to his parents. They moved him to Spain to get better medical treatment, specifically growth hormone as I recall. I won't even bother to get into the type/level of treatment he received because I don't have any facts. But it is an interesting question; he was small and Barca offered up improved medical treatment in exchange for the move from Argentina. The rest, as they say, is history.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/apr/20/childhood-barcelona-medicine-lionel-messi

As a counterpoint, talent like Messi's is not hard to spot. Go watch some videos of Ronaldinho, his teammate and former world player of the year, when he was in his early teens. That level of skill is obvious to even a casual observer of the game. I'm also pretty certain Ronaldinho is "clean." I'd say mostly recreational for him LOL. He's definitely not using any of the weight loss products.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf14eRnWw4I

 

[martinvickers]

lol. So "where is the proof" only applies when you feel like.

After years of going for the throat of anyone who would dare accuse the likes of froome wiggins, bolt, tyson gay of doping, because they hadn't failed a test, even of accusing people who did so of racism, for you to just go out there and accuse someone with absolutely nothing against their name of being a doper.

Wow.

Just wow.

You twit. I mean, seriously, you absolute plank.

How the hell did you miss this was 'patently' a joke? What sense of humour bypass have you had?

Come on, for the love of God!!

Seriously, your personal dislike of me is now making a fool of you. Go chill off.

 

[whittashau]

We're talking about extremely dramatic improvements in players form in a sport where doping is prevalent

I expect these players have everything than can do to improve dialed in but doping is very effective and very possible to implement.

Yes, but the intangible quality of confidence is very at work in football. We see it every now again in cycling. Pinot and Wiggins with their descending comes to mind, but confidence when it comes to football is a completely different animal. It's something that could literally come to a player at any time, or conversely disappear at any time.

Luca Toni is a very good example. Nothing more than an average player for most of his career, and then he strings several good seasons together and became a world class striker. Now his goal scoring exploits have dried up and is seen as nothing more than an average goalscorer again. Can doping explain these events? I doubt it, confidence on the other hand? I think it does.

 

[the sceptic]

You twit. I mean, seriously, you absolute plank.

How the hell did you miss this was 'patently' a joke? What sense of humour bypass have you had?

Come on, for the love of God!!

Seriously, your personal dislike of me is now making a fool of you. Go chill off.

Ball not Man, Vickar.

 

[hrotha]

You know what's a confidence boost? Knowing you're physically stronger than ever.