Doping in Soccer/Football

[Albatros]

Barcelona have won the league outrunning the opposition in only ten out of 38 games. Atlético came third outrunning the opposition in 36 games out of 38.
In the last game, Barcelona playing for the league title covered 103 kms. Granada, their rivals, playing for nothing 104. Atlético in the previous game when they still had chances of winning, 121kms. That is like having two more players on the pitch.

There has been something seriously wrong with the doping plan of Barcelona this season. Still, their quality told in the end.

Saying that a football team is clean(er) because they don't run as much is kind of like saying that a cyclist is clean because he didn't win any mountain stages.

There are hundreds of ways doping helps in football, from strength to endurance to speed to injury recovery.

I have never said or suggested that Barcelona are clean, but anyone who has watched Barcelona last season will not tell you that Barcelona won because they phisically overpowered the other teams. Actually it was the opposite for most of the games.

Barcelona under Guardiola not only played better but run about like rabid dogs. That is no longer the case.
Look at City now for some serious change in attitude.

 

[sniper]

The absolutely absurd levels of stamina is something of the last 5 to 10 years.
Madrid, Barca, Bayern, and arguably Dortmund. Maybe I'm missing some (Portuguese?) teams.
And German and Spanish national teams of course.

At Bayern there was no scope for Guardiola to improve much, btw.
Bayern found the elixir of life one or two seasons prior to Guardiola's arrival.
I remember well seeing Arjen Robben transform from an excellent winger into an excellent winger and right-back under Jupp Heynckes.

 

[Albatros]

Re:

The absolutely absurd levels of stamina is something of the last 5 to 10 years.
Madrid, Barca, Bayern, and arguably Dortmund. Maybe I'm missing some (Portuguese?) teams.
And German and Spanish national teams of course.

At Bayern there was no scope for Guardiola to improve much, btw.
Bayern found the elixir of life one or two seasons prior to Guardiola's arrival.
I remember well seeing Arjen Robben transform from an excellent winger into an excellent winger and right-back under Jupp Heynckes.

Spot on. And the winners of this marathon like performances are Borussia Dortmund, now joined by Atletico Madrid.

For anyone interested you can check distance covered per game here.
http://www.uefa.org/mediaservices/presskits/

TS pdf contains the distance covered per game.

Curiously enough, Mourinho teams do not run much, although they are very intense when doing so.

But it is not just about running. The whole package is improved: technical ability, decision making, aggression, will to win.

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Kovacic' transformation from last season to this season. He looks bloated comparing to what he was, just in end of last season. It's even noticeable in his face.

What's interesting is how he's talked about in the media (for those that can follow spanish media): he's portraied as "working well" in training, trying to get more game time.

 

[Benotti69]

edit;wrong thread, post deleted.

 

[The Hitch]

Klopp was on uk tv again talking up his strategy of having all forward players run shutle runs the whole 90 minutes to try and win the ball.

What a tactical genius.

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re:

Klopp was on uk tv again talking up his strategy of having all forward players run shutle runs the whole 90 minutes to try and win the ball.

What a tactical genius.

it's him and guardiola, two clear cut cases of tactical geniality.

what I find interesting is the society take to obvious doping behaviors. they're not only accepted, they are rewarded, glorified.

This is the cover of catalan newspaper "Sport", today:

http://orgulloso.es/futbol/portadas/portada-sport-27-septiembre-2016/

SUPERNEY [referring to Neymar]

in subtitle:
Ha ganado masa muscular gracias a un plan especial y pesa cuatro kilos más que cuando llegó.
He has gained muscular mass thanks to a special plan and weights 4 kilograms more than when he arrived [a couple of weeks ago]

 

[motty89]

Re: Re:

Klopp was on uk tv again talking up his strategy of having all forward players run shutle runs the whole 90 minutes to try and win the ball.

What a tactical genius.

it's him and guardiola, two clear cut cases of tactical geniality.

what I find interesting is the society take to obvious doping behaviors. they're not only accepted, they are rewarded, glorified.

This is the cover of catalan newspaper "Sport", today:

http://orgulloso.es/futbol/portadas/portada-sport-27-septiembre-2016/

SUPERNEY [referring to Neymar]

in subtitle:
Ha ganado masa muscular gracias a un plan especial y pesa cuatro kilos más que cuando llegó.
He has gained muscular mass thanks to a special plan and weights 4 kilograms more than when he arrived [a couple of weeks ago]

Zidane as well

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37420223

'What do you say to inspire your troops on the eve of the champions league final?

"What we have to do is run, run, run and run."

but hey, football's a skill sport and doping wouldn't make a difference

 

[TMP402]

Re:

The absolutely absurd levels of stamina is something of the last 5 to 10 years.
Madrid, Barca, Bayern, and arguably Dortmund. Maybe I'm missing some (Portuguese?) teams.
And German and Spanish national teams of course.

At Bayern there was no scope for Guardiola to improve much, btw.
Bayern found the elixir of life one or two seasons prior to Guardiola's arrival.
I remember well seeing Arjen Robben transform from an excellent winger into an excellent winger and right-back under Jupp Heynckes.

Is it just me or does Heynckes look exactly like Brian Holm in some photos?

 

[sniper]

I think that's a yes

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Tough weekend for the top teams in Europe. It's not easy to point Champions League teams that haven't drop form in their respective leagues. Bayern, Real Madrid got draws. Dortmund, City, Barcelona, Napoli lost, all matches they would normally win.

My guess is that whatever they're doing now for the champions league is unrecoverable in 3 days time. It's undeniable the competitive level CL fixtures are being played these days: the players are stronger (stamina) and sharper now in group stage than they were just a few years ago at a semi-final level.

 

[Archibald]

Re:

Tough weekend for the top teams in Europe. It's not easy to point Champions League teams that haven't drop form in their respective leagues. Bayern, Real Madrid got draws. Dortmund, City, Barcelona, Napoli lost, all matches they would normally win.

My guess is that whatever they're doing now for the champions league is unrecoverable in 3 days time. It's undeniable the competitive level CL fixtures are being played these days: the players are stronger (stamina) and sharper now in group stage than they were just a few years ago at a semi-final level.

City lost to Tottenham - also a CL club...

 

[Firzon]

Re:

Tough weekend for the top teams in Europe. It's not easy to point Champions League teams that haven't drop form in their respective leagues. Bayern, Real Madrid got draws. Dortmund, City, Barcelona, Napoli lost, all matches they would normally win.

My guess is that whatever they're doing now for the champions league is unrecoverable in 3 days time. It's undeniable the competitive level CL fixtures are being played these days: the players are stronger (stamina) and sharper now in group stage than they were just a few years ago at a semi-final level.

Real Madrid has been playing poor this season, seems their tactics is all about delivering crosses into the box, and they have had a couple of narrow wins already, but without Modric and Casemiro, and Ronaldo out of form and a bit unlucky. I didn't watch any other matches except for the spanish teams, but you got to take into consideration that Dortmund has a really young squad and they played away against Leverkusen which is a tough. They started with Pulisic who just turned 18... he was subbed out at half time. It's clear he isn't on top stamina wise yet.

Barcelona, was starting with Mathieu (has been a disaster this season, so many passes to wrong color), and what seems to be a very tired Busquets, playing maybe his worst game of his career, and Rafinha being invisible, note that Rafinha and Turan "only" played around 35 minutes in the mid-week and Mathieu sat on the bench the whole time, and they have generally more time to rest than the starting lineup, and they all did really bad in the 1st half, but in the 2nd half the energy was different again. I don't know what happened in the 1st half but it seemed to be a pscychological failure. Can also be worth mentioning that all of Celta's goals came from really poor individual mistakes, and the hosts were also lucky since every clear cut chance went in.

so in my opinion your example from this weekend is pretty random... its more the other way. Another thing though is that big teams often struggle after international breaks, especially Barcelona with their most important players being south americans, with a long flight trip and jetlag.

but you said sharper in group stage now than semifinal years ago? well, tbh I don't know, but I doubt it. Remember that football is much more tactical than any other sport and it requires so much skill and control with the ball, something you can't achieve with having better stamina. Also a player like Messi is always one of the players who runs least every game.

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re: Re:

Tough weekend for the top teams in Europe. It's not easy to point Champions League teams that haven't drop form in their respective leagues. Bayern, Real Madrid got draws. Dortmund, City, Barcelona, Napoli lost, all matches they would normally win.

My guess is that whatever they're doing now for the champions league is unrecoverable in 3 days time. It's undeniable the competitive level CL fixtures are being played these days: the players are stronger (stamina) and sharper now in group stage than they were just a few years ago at a semi-final level.

Real Madrid has been playing poor this season, seems their tactics is all about delivering crosses into the box, and they have had a couple of narrow wins already, but without Modric and Casemiro, and Ronaldo out of form and a bit unlucky. I didn't watch any other matches except for the spanish teams, but you got to take into consideration that Dortmund has a really young squad and they played away against Leverkusen which is a tough. They started with Pulisic who just turned 18... he was subbed out at half time. It's clear he isn't on top stamina wise yet.

Barcelona, was starting with Mathieu (has been a disaster this season, so many passes to wrong color), and what seems to be a very tired Busquets, playing maybe his worst game of his career, and Rafinha being invisible, note that Rafinha and Turan "only" played around 35 minutes in the mid-week and Mathieu sat on the bench the whole time, and they have generally more time to rest than the starting lineup, and they all did really bad in the 1st half, but in the 2nd half the energy was different again. I don't know what happened in the 1st half but it seemed to be a pscychological failure. Can also be worth mentioning that all of Celta's goals came from really poor individual mistakes, and the hosts were also lucky since every clear cut chance went in.

so in my opinion your example from this weekend is pretty random... its more the other way. Another thing though is that big teams often struggle after international breaks, especially Barcelona with their most important players being south americans, with a long flight trip and jetlag.

I'm not taking anything in consideration, that is the point: remove the details, all you have back is the substance. I could probably pick a bunch of details and even out what you bring to the table. For instance, starters on the bench is a sign that they didn't recover properly in time from their midweek dosage. And it wasn't after an international break, it was just before one..

but you said sharper in group stage now than semifinal years ago? well, tbh I don't know, but I doubt it. Remember that football is much more tactical than any other sport and it requires so much skill and control with the ball, something you can't achieve with having better stamina.

That's the way I saw it. There was a different level of energy, abundantly clear in the matches involving the teams I mentioned. Skill and ball control are details of the game, no point bringing that up if the discussion is about stamina. Tactics not only involves stamina and endurance, it depends on it, because it's about position and movement of players

Also a player like Messi is always one of the players who runs least every game.

What's your point? There's always a player that runs less than the others, that follows from the concept of order. Messi and what he runs is again an insignificant detail. Also, Messi would be the worst example to bring to a doping discussion with a "football has no doping" stance or similar, his status as a doper is public.

 

[gooner]

Still clenbuterol issues in China.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/soccer/2016/11/04/chinese-soccer-player-banned-8-months-for-doping-positive/93289630/?

 

[moonstation2000]

Re: Re:

Tough weekend for the top teams in Europe. It's not easy to point Champions League teams that haven't drop form in their respective leagues. Bayern, Real Madrid got draws. Dortmund, City, Barcelona, Napoli lost, all matches they would normally win.

My guess is that whatever they're doing now for the champions league is unrecoverable in 3 days time. It's undeniable the competitive level CL fixtures are being played these days: the players are stronger (stamina) and sharper now in group stage than they were just a few years ago at a semi-final level.

Real Madrid has been playing poor this season, seems their tactics is all about delivering crosses into the box, and they have had a couple of narrow wins already, but without Modric and Casemiro, and Ronaldo out of form and a bit unlucky. I didn't watch any other matches except for the spanish teams, but you got to take into consideration that Dortmund has a really young squad and they played away against Leverkusen which is a tough. They started with Pulisic who just turned 18... he was subbed out at half time. It's clear he isn't on top stamina wise yet.

Barcelona, was starting with Mathieu (has been a disaster this season, so many passes to wrong color), and what seems to be a very tired Busquets, playing maybe his worst game of his career, and Rafinha being invisible, note that Rafinha and Turan "only" played around 35 minutes in the mid-week and Mathieu sat on the bench the whole time, and they have generally more time to rest than the starting lineup, and they all did really bad in the 1st half, but in the 2nd half the energy was different again. I don't know what happened in the 1st half but it seemed to be a pscychological failure. Can also be worth mentioning that all of Celta's goals came from really poor individual mistakes, and the hosts were also lucky since every clear cut chance went in.

so in my opinion your example from this weekend is pretty random... its more the other way. Another thing though is that big teams often struggle after international breaks, especially Barcelona with their most important players being south americans, with a long flight trip and jetlag.

I'm not taking anything in consideration, that is the point: remove the details, all you have back is the substance. I could probably pick a bunch of details and even out what you bring to the table. For instance, starters on the bench is a sign that they didn't recover properly in time from their midweek dosage. And it wasn't after an international break, it was just before one..

but you said sharper in group stage now than semifinal years ago? well, tbh I don't know, but I doubt it. Remember that football is much more tactical than any other sport and it requires so much skill and control with the ball, something you can't achieve with having better stamina.

That's the way I saw it. There was a different level of energy, abundantly clear in the matches involving the teams I mentioned. Skill and ball control are details of the game, no point bringing that up if the discussion is about stamina. Tactics not only involves stamina and endurance, it depends on it, because it's about position and movement of players

Also a player like Messi is always one of the players who runs least every game.

What's your point? There's always a player that runs less than the others, that follows from the concept of order. Messi and what he runs is again an insignificant detail. Also, Messi would be the worst example to bring to a doping discussion with a "football has no doping" stance or similar, his status as a doper is public.

I disagree with the concept that ball control and skill are not changed with better endurance. When players get tired the legs don't work as well and mistakes are made, bad passes, unwillingness to chase down balls, etc. it's pretty easy to see. You don't gain skill from enhanced endurance but you definitely lose some skill, control and even decision making as players tire.

If one team tires the other team can press more and force mistakes and bad passes as they put them under pressure. This especially makes a difference in the midfield where a lot of ground must be covered on offense and defense.

 

[spiritualride]

Playing styles seem to have changed significantly the last 10 years. I find football to be significantly less entertaining now, as I have a soft spot for technique and brains over athleticism. Now many of the big name players have terrible "football brains" but monster athleticism to make up for it. It's boring watching one stupid decision and bad touch after another while technical players are swarmed by those that can run endlessly and shove them around. In the past, they'd get tired after 60 minutes of pressing and would have to tactically adjust to compensate. Just my opinion.

 

[kingjr]

Re:

Playing styles seem to have changed significantly the last 10 years. I find football to be significantly less entertaining now, as I have a soft spot for technique and brains over athleticism. Now many of the big name players have terrible "football brains" but monster athleticism to make up for it.

Like who?

 

[Jungle Cycle]

I've just found this thread and on this one I've been more 'educated' since i've been following soccer for 4 decades. a LOT less now because i've got tired of scandals here(brazil) and comebol/fifa/uefa thirst only for money...
Well, the "model" of doping stupid(uneducated is more correct) poor kids in small teams, owned by rich managers who bet on getting mediocre teams to get to 4th/5th in regional championships and sell their new prospects to a bigger team for a GOOD amount of money is WELL know around here. I mean, take over a broken small club, pay all their costs, give it a face lift and a put "professionals", mainly doctors and physiologist, to take over their young careers, get them for nothing and play the big teams where they can witch is the early region championships where the big teams are still getting their base training for the season. ding, ding, ding $$$$..
After that 90% of them fail because they stop having "assistance" and they have no idea how to do it or even that they were doing it. Also they start having some testing in the bigger clubs..
Now the big "thing" is to the same thing but sell the really good prospects to east europe, Russia, China(the new meca) where we all know how it works..
Even the few ones who are really talented and made to the big european leagues right the way, the differences in the stats are amazing before/after the transfer. I mean, R10+R9 were good examples of that era. They were skinny reeeally talented players and then 1 year later they were built like a tank and could not be stopped.. and when they came back most players did have weight problems since they couldnt have the "assistance" they usually had and even fat they could excel...
Nowadays is a little less obvious and they just sprint non-stop!? it is ridiculous... and if i may say so, just like bike racing, the domestiques are reeeally good physically and the good players in a good league rarely get more than 1 touch or he WILL be brought down.. and for that reason it got mostly boring, like the tour.. call me old school but for both get more interesting they should put bike teams in gt with 5 or 6 and soccer with 10 or play in cobbles...

 

[gooner]

It should be taken off them but it won't. Infantino has more or less said so before.

MOSCOW, December 9. /TASS/. The International Federation of Football Associations (FIFA) will ask for the information from the World Anti-Doping Agency’s (WADA) Independent Commission regarding allegedly widespread doping abuse in Russian sports, FIFA press service told TASS on Friday.

In his Part 2 report on Friday, WADA Independent Commission Chairman Richard McLaren stated that an unprecedented system to cover up doping abuse cases of athletes has been in effect in Russia over the recent years.

According to the report, over 1,000 Russian athletes competing in summer, winter and Paralympic sports could have been involved in the manipulations system to conceal positive doping tests.

"FIFA will request from WADA all details and evidence concerning the individual cases of doping in Russian football that are referenced in Prof. McClaren’s investigation," FIFA’s statement addressed to TASS said.

"Once FIFA receives this information from WADA, it will take the appropriate next steps," the global football organization added ahead of the upcoming FIFA Confederations Cup, to be held in Russia in over half a year.

http://tass.com/sport/918266

 

[BullsFan22]

It should be taken off them but it won't. Infantino has more or less said so before.

MOSCOW, December 9. /TASS/. The International Federation of Football Associations (FIFA) will ask for the information from the World Anti-Doping Agency’s (WADA) Independent Commission regarding allegedly widespread doping abuse in Russian sports, FIFA press service told TASS on Friday.

In his Part 2 report on Friday, WADA Independent Commission Chairman Richard McLaren stated that an unprecedented system to cover up doping abuse cases of athletes has been in effect in Russia over the recent years.

According to the report, over 1,000 Russian athletes competing in summer, winter and Paralympic sports could have been involved in the manipulations system to conceal positive doping tests.

"FIFA will request from WADA all details and evidence concerning the individual cases of doping in Russian football that are referenced in Prof. McClaren’s investigation," FIFA’s statement addressed to TASS said.

"Once FIFA receives this information from WADA, it will take the appropriate next steps," the global football organization added ahead of the upcoming FIFA Confederations Cup, to be held in Russia in over half a year.

http://tass.com/sport/918266

Why should it be taken from them, in your opinion?

 

[gooner]

It should be taken off them but it won't. Infantino has more or less said so before.

MOSCOW, December 9. /TASS/. The International Federation of Football Associations (FIFA) will ask for the information from the World Anti-Doping Agency’s (WADA) Independent Commission regarding allegedly widespread doping abuse in Russian sports, FIFA press service told TASS on Friday.

In his Part 2 report on Friday, WADA Independent Commission Chairman Richard McLaren stated that an unprecedented system to cover up doping abuse cases of athletes has been in effect in Russia over the recent years.

According to the report, over 1,000 Russian athletes competing in summer, winter and Paralympic sports could have been involved in the manipulations system to conceal positive doping tests.

"FIFA will request from WADA all details and evidence concerning the individual cases of doping in Russian football that are referenced in Prof. McClaren’s investigation," FIFA’s statement addressed to TASS said.

"Once FIFA receives this information from WADA, it will take the appropriate next steps," the global football organization added ahead of the upcoming FIFA Confederations Cup, to be held in Russia in over half a year.

http://tass.com/sport/918266

Why should it be taken from them, in your opinion?

State sponsored doping from a government that backed the World Cup bid. Not to mention Mutko's role in it all.

 

[BullsFan22]

It should be taken off them but it won't. Infantino has more or less said so before.

MOSCOW, December 9. /TASS/. The International Federation of Football Associations (FIFA) will ask for the information from the World Anti-Doping Agency’s (WADA) Independent Commission regarding allegedly widespread doping abuse in Russian sports, FIFA press service told TASS on Friday.

In his Part 2 report on Friday, WADA Independent Commission Chairman Richard McLaren stated that an unprecedented system to cover up doping abuse cases of athletes has been in effect in Russia over the recent years.

According to the report, over 1,000 Russian athletes competing in summer, winter and Paralympic sports could have been involved in the manipulations system to conceal positive doping tests.

"FIFA will request from WADA all details and evidence concerning the individual cases of doping in Russian football that are referenced in Prof. McClaren’s investigation," FIFA’s statement addressed to TASS said.

"Once FIFA receives this information from WADA, it will take the appropriate next steps," the global football organization added ahead of the upcoming FIFA Confederations Cup, to be held in Russia in over half a year.

http://tass.com/sport/918266

Why should it be taken from them, in your opinion?

State sponsored doping from a government that backed the World Cup bid. Not to mention Mutko's role in it all.

Of course. I forgot about that variable.

 

[sniper]

Ever since 1988, I've always thought of Russia as a country with huge football potential, and I've been expecting a lot from them, but basically they've been a massive disappointment in the past twentyfive years or so, with some rare exceptions at the club level.
Based on football, I would argue Russia have definitely NOT been leading the peds arms race in the past 25 years or so.

And isn't that the irony: the evidence that has been unearthed in the last one or two years indeed suggests Russian sport in the post-communist era is characterized by rather amateuristic doping schemes.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Ever since 1988, I've always thought of Russia as a country with huge football potential, and I've been expecting a lot from them, but basically they've been a massive disappointment in the past twentyfive years or so, with some rare exceptions at the club level.
Based on football, I would argue Russia have definitely NOT been leading the peds arms race in the past 25 years or so.

And isn't that the irony: the evidence that has been unearthed in the last one or two years indeed suggests Russian sport in the post-communist era is characterized by rather amateuristic doping schemes.

They don't have the talent as of now that can compete with the other top nations. They screwed the pooch in 2012, 2014 AND this past summer in France. Plus a lot of their starters are past their prime. You could clearly see that this summer when they were getting outplayed by the Slovakians (let alone the English, who are, let's be fair, not that impressive themselves). They were slow and didn't seem to have the tactical acumen. Does that equate to no doping, or less doping, or more doping? Not sure. But they are going to need a lot more than some old school needle work to start contending for titles. Just my thoughts.