- Jul 19, 2009
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I think that Italians have reduced their doping regime after that http://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/oct/08/europeanfootball.serieafootball
ALS has always been linked to athletes. Don't know if there are statistics actually making a solid case.
- Jul 1, 2013
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buckle said:
Not entirely sure I've read so much guff in all my life
For a start, Cerci is far from 'in demand', he's about to turn 27 and had a decent season for a mid table Italian side. He featured for 20 minutes all tournament in a poor Italian side knocked out at the group stage
Secondly, any accusation that Costa Rica, a team that spends less on football in a year than Wayne Rooney earns for Manchester United in a week, are on a doping program while assuming Italy, with a history of known doping / injected 'performance enhancement' aren't... make believe
Greece haven't been suspicious for doping in any sense, they didn't even make the 2006 World Cup and bombed in 2010. They had a lot of luck in 2004, but showed that a well organised team can grind out results. They beat Ronaldo's Portugal in the final, a player well on the path of becoming a monster by that point. I'll let you work out the relevance of the point I'm making there
The only thing that's made me really suspicious this tournament is the German side running about fresh as daisies for 120 minutes against Algeria, while every other team has been struggled horribly with cramp and injuries often even within 90 minutes. With the heat and conditions in Brazil, just doesn't quite add up for me
Fine but ...
CR run two top 10 teams into the ground to the point where even FIFA are moved to test 7 of their players after the the Italian game and this is not worthy of comment or speculation?
CR run two top 10 teams into the ground to the point where even FIFA are moved to test 7 of their players after the the Italian game and this is not worthy of comment or speculation?
- Jul 1, 2013
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buckle said:
Not particularly, no
This is the problem when speculation is based on results alone
BradCantona said:
Although you can't base it just on results, if you watch the matches, and see a team right on top of their opposition, every time they get the ball, all game, every game, you can be pretty sure something is up.
How "spirited" is the defense, is an obvious tell.
- Jul 1, 2013
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Andynonomous said:
Costa Rica were out on their feet against Greece. Campbell the star striker was a passenger for the last 15 mins of normal time / all of extra time
If anything Chile have been the team pressing high, not tiring... but they're out of the tournament now
Not sure
We kept being told that Campbell was dead on his feet by the commentator but that very player stepped up to take a pen which was converted with great aplomb. CR were down to 10 for an hour against a team who may well have been on something themselves. I suspect the CR7 is FIFA's way of issuing a warning that they know their performances have been strange.
BradCantona said:
We kept being told that Campbell was dead on his feet by the commentator but that very player stepped up to take a pen which was converted with great aplomb. CR were down to 10 for an hour against a team who may well have been on something themselves. I suspect the CR7 is FIFA's way of issuing a warning that they know their performances have been strange.
Don't think CR are doped to any more sophisticated level than other teams. Perhaps they didn't have the same energy levels against Greece because of the Italy performance.
And I thought the Dutch took it very slow against Mexico in the first half and conserved energy for the second, so I agree somewhat with Lineker in their case. And perhaps playing a competitive 90 mins in that heat will affect them in their next game. Some of the fans had to move out their seats and into the shade during the match, so i can only imagine how draining that must have been to play in and ET was very close too.
And I thought the Dutch took it very slow against Mexico in the first half and conserved energy for the second, so I agree somewhat with Lineker in their case. And perhaps playing a competitive 90 mins in that heat will affect them in their next game. Some of the fans had to move out their seats and into the shade during the match, so i can only imagine how draining that must have been to play in and ET was very close too.
bewildered said:
It's certainly of interest that NL knew how to conserve energy levels better than MX. Are Europeans that smart? CR played with 10 for an hour against GR which nullified any doping advantage.
buckle said:
I agree. I don't think teams "intentionally slow down" during part of their game to "conserve energy". When you play, your instincts take over, and you give a high effort (especially when the other team is pressing).
I think the talented teams that are not doped (as much) are out (England, Italy, Spain, Croatia, Switzerland), as well as the untalented teams that are heavily doped (South Korea, Usa).
What you have left over are the talented teams that do dope a lot (Brazil, Germany, Holland, Argentina...).
Andynonomous said:
All you have done there is judged performances and from that decided who is doped or not
I have a theory on how lethargic Italy and England looked, their first game was played in extremely demanding conditions and the subsequent long transfers meant for their next matches they where not sufficiently recovered.
del1962 said:
I agree with your assessment. After their draining Manaus game against Portugal, the USA players looked like they were running in quicksand against Germany in their next game.
It is very easy to pick and choose results and make interpretations to support a preconceived notion. Are USA and South Korea heavy dopers because they run around the most or do they run around the most because they play without the ball frequently, or because they have to stress fitness because of their relative lack of talent.
I admit to being biased because of my nationality, but considering how many of the USA players play in a relatively minor futbol league like MLS, I sincerely doubt they would be one of the higher doping nations at the World Cup.
del1962 said:
Italy were not lethargic against Uruguay (66:33 passing stats for the first 45) - it was a bad call which changed the game. I suspect that was influenced by traditional anti-Italian bias by FIFA appointed officials. Whether LS's behaviour was itself driven by steroid abuse is also worthy of consideration. Most of the Uruguayans were also shattered after their CR game though.
thrawn said:
Not NEARLY as much as 2010 (or as much as most of the Latin American teams this year).
Again, I am not just going on the final results, but watching how slow they looked when defending.
- Jul 1, 2013
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Andynonomous said:
The Dutch v Mexico game was played at just under 40 degree Celsius, of course you try to converse you energy. Holland didn't give in and got a bit lucky having been outlplayed for the most part. Whether there were or not, nothing about the game or the result particularly screamed dopers are present
Again I ask the question, England, Spain and Italy are three of the top four leagues in the World, certainly where most of the money is. Why on earth would teams with players predominantly from those countries, at the top teams, NOT dope according to you - yet other nations including the likes of Costa Rica who spend ****** all on football in their country relatively would?
And what Argentina have you been watching? If they're taking anything, looks like a combination of downers and pot to me...
Doping might be a major issue in football, it might not be. These kind of aimless speculation based on results alone does nothing to further the outing of such practices
100% players 'slow down' during games.
Playing a pressing game every moment the opponent has possession is something you sometimes, but usually rarely see. If you attempt this and fail you both get tired and opened up.
Often pressing is used just after a turnaround/loss of possession.
Often no pressing is used up to shooting distance around the 16 meters.
That is all about conserving energy.
And when attackers are counter attacking, if midfielders following them in the second line is very important. They can be sprinting close to 100% to attempt to get in the box in front of the goal and score. They can just stay in position and close down any opponent when possession is lost.
Every time you run without the ball you make a decision about pace, conserving energy, deciding the intensity of and the speed you need to pick up.
I have been following cyclists talking about soccer for a long time. It seems few here understand anything about soccer at all.
I think we don't really see a pattern of EPO being used in performance at all.
They may be using it, they may not. But I don't see the pattern.
First of all, it is very hard to judge fitness and passion to win in soccer. If you get outplayed you arrive everywhere a bit too late and you appear less fit and less passionate when the opposite may be true.
Second, some teams you expect to be fit, with players from big clubs, don't appear fit. Other teams with players from similar teams are very fit.
Then teams with players from mostly south American competitions, appear in a different way.
There is no pattern, there are lots of contradictory things.
We expected players from South American competitions to be fit and prepared and players from the big EU leagues to be tired. What we see is split. But overall, European teams proved to appear more fit than SA and N/MA teams.
The only doping pattern that makes sense with soccer and that we appear to see is players getting muscular when they go to big clubs. Strength training is not a big part of the training program of young players.
It may be possible that during the offseason they use steroids and train up muscles. It's quite hard to strength train a lot of mass during the normal season, playing 2 matches a week.
In soccer modern training techniques and new scientific ideas are only very slowly accepted. So a lot of things one would expect, one does not see.
It is funny that every time when a team is on a winning streak and appears dominant, cyclists here thing they are doping because they are 'more fit'.
Then suddenly things switch around and suddenly the opposing team is on a program and the others are off it.
Also, there are many players in soccer who cannot be convinced that fitness endurance training, strength training or training at match intensity helps their game and they will never do it. Many players never train at match intensity ever during their whole career. Yes, it happens even with some of the biggest stars. They are lazy and depend on their talent, intelligence and dexterity.
I know there are players that their coaches let train with HR monitors and they just refuse to get into the higher bpm HR zones.
Many players nowadays do depend on being the super athlete, but some just don't buy in to that and no trainer can change their mind. In fact, all current coaches are from a time where strength training was never ever done and endurance training was done rarely and all players hated it.
Playing a pressing game every moment the opponent has possession is something you sometimes, but usually rarely see. If you attempt this and fail you both get tired and opened up.
Often pressing is used just after a turnaround/loss of possession.
Often no pressing is used up to shooting distance around the 16 meters.
That is all about conserving energy.
And when attackers are counter attacking, if midfielders following them in the second line is very important. They can be sprinting close to 100% to attempt to get in the box in front of the goal and score. They can just stay in position and close down any opponent when possession is lost.
Every time you run without the ball you make a decision about pace, conserving energy, deciding the intensity of and the speed you need to pick up.
I have been following cyclists talking about soccer for a long time. It seems few here understand anything about soccer at all.
I think we don't really see a pattern of EPO being used in performance at all.
They may be using it, they may not. But I don't see the pattern.
First of all, it is very hard to judge fitness and passion to win in soccer. If you get outplayed you arrive everywhere a bit too late and you appear less fit and less passionate when the opposite may be true.
Second, some teams you expect to be fit, with players from big clubs, don't appear fit. Other teams with players from similar teams are very fit.
Then teams with players from mostly south American competitions, appear in a different way.
There is no pattern, there are lots of contradictory things.
We expected players from South American competitions to be fit and prepared and players from the big EU leagues to be tired. What we see is split. But overall, European teams proved to appear more fit than SA and N/MA teams.
The only doping pattern that makes sense with soccer and that we appear to see is players getting muscular when they go to big clubs. Strength training is not a big part of the training program of young players.
It may be possible that during the offseason they use steroids and train up muscles. It's quite hard to strength train a lot of mass during the normal season, playing 2 matches a week.
In soccer modern training techniques and new scientific ideas are only very slowly accepted. So a lot of things one would expect, one does not see.
It is funny that every time when a team is on a winning streak and appears dominant, cyclists here thing they are doping because they are 'more fit'.
Then suddenly things switch around and suddenly the opposing team is on a program and the others are off it.
Also, there are many players in soccer who cannot be convinced that fitness endurance training, strength training or training at match intensity helps their game and they will never do it. Many players never train at match intensity ever during their whole career. Yes, it happens even with some of the biggest stars. They are lazy and depend on their talent, intelligence and dexterity.
I know there are players that their coaches let train with HR monitors and they just refuse to get into the higher bpm HR zones.
Many players nowadays do depend on being the super athlete, but some just don't buy in to that and no trainer can change their mind. In fact, all current coaches are from a time where strength training was never ever done and endurance training was done rarely and all players hated it.
BradCantona said:
Again, you keep repeating the straw man "you are just basing your suspicions on results", when I keep repeating that I am basing it on the observed speed of their defense.
FIFA DOES NOT follow the WADA code. The testing is clearly designed for public relations purposes. Cycling has MUCH more stringent testing than football, and most cycling fans will admit that doping is prevalent in cycling.
It is far more than just naïve to say that doping is not likely prevalent in football.
Is there any evidence that doping testing does anything to change the amount of doping going on?
- Jul 1, 2013
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Almeisan said:
In principle, operating a blood passport scheme should, or at least make it much more difficult, and possibly less effective. But given the amount of interpretation involved, plus the need to ensure there are no false positives, it's obviously not an exact science. Personally I'd be happy for all professional sport to have such a system in place
Andynonomous, it's not 'strawman' to point out the flaws in the approach of your speculation, which you stated is based on 'talent', and just happens to exactly mirror the results to far this tournament. Spain were leading Holland and should have gone two goals up, if they had the end result would very likely have been different. Your summation would have been reversed had that been the case.
And drop this 'speed of the defence' nonsense, utterly meaningless. Attacking players don't dope? Mertesacker is the slowest player I've ever seen, Howedes isn't exactly known for his pace either - hence Neuer had to get involved so regularly sweeping up at the back preventing the pacy Algerian striker Slimani getting in against them - yet you've got Germany on your dopers list...
Andynonomous said:
He may well be barking up the wrong tree, but not sure your approach is particularly fail-safe either - I'm not particularly sold on any random fan's 'observations' about a team's defensive speed, since there are so many variables that can increase your margin for error. To pick just two:
1) Your observations themselves may be completely off - you may trust your reading of the game, but unless you can provide evidence of your tactical expertise or presence at these matches it's safe to assume you're over-playing your ability to read the game more than anyone else on here. Or maybe I'm leaping too much on the word 'observations' and you actually have numbers to back you up, in which case I'd be very interested to see them
2) Drawing conclusions just based on the speed of a team's defence is such a limited approach. Not all teams play the same type of high-intensity pressing game such as Costa Rica - is that because they're not doping or because of the coaches' tactical preference? Many coaches/teams adopt a more passive defensive system with little pressing due to concerns that too intense pressing won't just tire their teams out but could lead to them losing shape, particularly if the pressers aren't familiar with the system. Another wrinkle: what about teams who don't press quickly all over the pitch but let the opposition have the ball until the final third (and then they press). Sure the 'speed of their defense' is high and intense, but the intervals they're running are much less frequent and more targeted - are they doping?
Having said all that I do think many teams are doping, just think that your certainty over who is doping is pretty mis-placed given the evidence you claim to use. Or at least how you've explained it so far - would certainly love to see some stats proving your points, as I'm just not getting it right now...
I haven't seen Van Gaal say that they were their tactics, but he has referred to doing a lot of fitness work pre-tournament due to the conditions. He was certainly preparing for them well in advance generally and Manaus has the worst conditions of the lot.
Holland started defensively and looked to keep possession in the first half rather than attack. That is not the way Holland or Van Gaal play football normally.
The mexicans should be much more accustomed to those conditions yet the Dutch ran them ragged more and more the longer the game went on and scored two after 87 mins. Obviously the mexican goal wasn't part of his plan but the plan was still good enough to overcome even that as it turned out.
You don't think a smart, meticulous manager like LVG, who made plans for the conditions in Brazil generally, wouldn't have planned even more for a match in the most horrendous conditions of all? Any half decent manager would.
Holland started defensively and looked to keep possession in the first half rather than attack. That is not the way Holland or Van Gaal play football normally.
The mexicans should be much more accustomed to those conditions yet the Dutch ran them ragged more and more the longer the game went on and scored two after 87 mins. Obviously the mexican goal wasn't part of his plan but the plan was still good enough to overcome even that as it turned out.
You don't think a smart, meticulous manager like LVG, who made plans for the conditions in Brazil generally, wouldn't have planned even more for a match in the most horrendous conditions of all? Any half decent manager would.
Andynonomous said:
Really? Even where your manager may have a game plan to do the opposite? Even where it's 38 degrees and fans can't even bear to sit in their seats? C'mon, you'd have to be a hugely naive manager not to plan for that and we know he planned for it pre-tournament.
buckle said:
The Marchisio foul was a deliberate attempt to hurt an opponent.
Often players try to step on the foot or ankle to intimidate. Marchisio hit the shin below the knee. He misplaced his attempt to foul. To his credit, he did pull back his leg. If he doesn't, the guy breaks his shin.
Obvious red card if you follow the rules, which most refs dont.
LS has been biting since he is a youth player or even as a child before he started playing soccer. Nothing to do with steroids, lol.
Balotelli couldn't do anything with Pirlo's passes and Pirlo or the other midfielders don't have the pace or power needed in modern football. The defending players aren't of Nesta, Maldini or Cannavaro in their peak. Not even close.
No big surprise they went out so soon out. Don't need help of FIFA refs here.
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